tom_widdows

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19452033 BBC getting worse

tic supposedly trying to tempt Del Piero to the East End Have they learned nothing from the Lyjunberg fiasco?

In Some hired people carrier thing driven by a someone else then the pub apparently RDU Back in said hired people carrier thing (tad concerned about what GS has planned for it) 0-0

Presume you've never been involved in a large construction project in a historical area (or any area for that matter?) Not a question of rational or sensible thoughts. Its pointing out that all the plans etc have been done based on non intrusive surveys so in an ancient city you never know what the former occupants decided to build on top off and its nieve to assume everything is fine and it will run like clockwork. Plus a development like this is about as likely to be delivered on time and on budget as a certain Tram network and given its location could cause almost as much disruption.

I think the locals will when their bin collections are cut back to monthly, Few more schools get amalgamated but at the same time cutting the level of teachers to deal with the larger classes, Duthie Park and the like lose a few parkies and start becoming overgrown, etc etc. The 90million loan based on being paid off by business rates is a very scary thought (for me anyway) as it smacks of the thinking that fucked the world economey. Yes sir heres a 110% mortgage. Dont worry in 5 years time yer house will be worth 1.5times what it is now. Madam why not release some equity in yer home. Then you can get yerself a new car or go on a luxury holiday. Dont worry about repaying it as property values are going up and up you know. why of course mr council man, 90million will easily be repaid in a booming city like Aberdeen. I mean just look at Union Street, you cant get a unit/ office in there for love nor money Be even more entertaining when they started digging out the land and found things no one knew about - Ancient relics, old foundations, old gas mains or sewers long forgotten about, underground streams, large build up of bedrock that will need blasting. Then of course the inevitable contractor disputes, potential for adverse weather conditions and the whole mess with Scotrail as to how you work safetly over their line without restricting their services. 140million suddenly becomes 150million and the steadily rises till the QS says 'woaaah there, we need to find savings somewhere.....get rid of that bit...and that...and that...can we change that etc.

Why not everyone else does

request - please start using the metric system Yes there is always a way around things like that. Its called have bottomless pit of money and in the case of the Aviva stadium, a much larger site with the option to rotate your stadium 90degrees. Id really love to see someone try and put together a scheme for a redeveloped pittodrie which involved underground tunnels for crowd circulation. The structural design headaches of carrying out such an operation on sandy soil in such a built up area would be entertaining enough before they even got to the M & E issues, fire escapes, DDA access, Emergency vehicle access.

Pittodries pitch is 100m x 66m. UEFA rules actually require the pitch to be 105m x 68m for champions league and its only a matter of time before they insist on that for Europa league games. They've already lengthened it once which fucked up the RDS upper tier and there any much scope to go any further. Where do you propose the club get the finances as to pay for the redevelopment? The only money the club has is tied up in the land Pittodrie is built on. We are like those pensioners who live in expensive houses but cant afford to pay for the heating or repairs. it is the fact that 3 of the 4 stands are accessed from public roads which are basically rendered impassible for long periods on match days. Since these roads provide access to residential properties the police cant actually close them on match days. Tynecastle itself sits back from Macloed street Gorgie Road, and Wheatfield Terrace and has a linked concourse areas underneath and to the back of side of each of the new stands which allow for fast evacuation into controlled areas (ie not straight onto an emergency services access road). The stands are only part of the problem with Pittodrie. All large buildings require adequete infrastructure and the pittodrie site just doesnt have it without drastically reducing the capacity.

Name those stadiums

Including/ converting is one thing. Demolishing and rebuilding is another. Anyway as BTR says no part of pittodrie is listed

That really is a shit survey. Its actually not worth even completing

Be interested to see if Forres do get to play at Mosset Park supposedly only got a safety certificate for about 1500 folk. Suspect they will probably shift it to Inverness

perhaps said private landowners are looking to make a profit on sites they had thought would be snapped up for housing/ commercial developments but have had next to fuck all and are watching their investment value plummet ergo they want a quick sale also could be they are pissed off at the council and would see it as a nice big GIRFUY

Alexander, Perry, Emilson Cribari, Bocanegra, Argyriou, Little, McCulloch, Macleod (Naismith 77), Black, McKay (Crawford 64), Sandaza (Kyle 64). Subs Not Used: Gallacher, Faure. http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/video_audio/166917.html 0:45 - Anyone care to explain the foul on the Alexander?

voice of the count

The wee rangers scrape a draw with the mighty Berwick. Dont like to tempt fate but Elgin and Peterhead are pulling away

Bloo toon beats me to it Problem 1 - The clubs only asset to pay for stadium improvements is the land pittodrie sits on. There is barely enough money to cover the upkeep and the bank is not going to jump at the chance to lend more cash. Why do all of you who are digging your heels in about relocating keep ignoring this FACT? Problem 2 - That whackin big car park you mention (and im beginning to hit my head of concrete walls over this) is seperated from the stadium site by a public road. Said road provides access to commercial and residential property aswell as being an emergency services route for the stadium. You cannot just apply to close that (either temporarily or permanantly) and expect it to happen. The amount of neighbour objections would be enough for the council to recommend it for refusal and thats before environmental health & the Roads Department got their hands on it. And if someone re-mentions a tunnel, building over the top of a public road causes major headaches on motorways let alone in a built up urban area. Like it or not the council dont have little interest in helping AFC and will have even less interest if it is going to cause them a headache. The odd shaped car-park to the south east is as you already said to the south east. The boundary only goes to the pitch halfway line. On the other half is now residential/ commercial development. Had the club managed to buy the old gas main then there would be scope to either turn the pitch 90d or shift it several meters south. But in doing that the RDS would need to be adapted/ rebuilt which would jack up the price even more. There is also the fact that if you go for planning permission for any new development you are asked how many existing parking spaces there are and how many new you will be providing. I did a small house extension in Renton and the council demanded the owners give up their front garden and add another parking space (they would also have had to adapt the existing council owned pavement at vast expense). I eventually managed to get a relaxation after a big fight but that was for adding 1 new bedroom and a larger kitchen to a house. What do you think is going to be the response from the council when the club says it intends to reduce the current non-compliant parking allocation? Problem 3 - Caley only lasted half a season at pittodrie. They were back at Caley stadium by January. In those 5months they were not only forking out rent to AFC, the also had to fork out travel expenses for every single game, and were averaging crowds of 1400. They were losing out on Corporate money too as local inverness businesses were exactly keen on a 200mile round trip for a piss up every saturday. AFC relocating to Inverness or Dundee (fuck sake east end park? Perth is the 3rd option) would have a similar effect. For starters the reduction in capacity - Inverness: down 15000 seats, Dens Park: down 10000 seats, Tannadice: down 8000 seats. The loss of corporate income and stadium sponsorship deals. Then comes the rent to our rivals which would barely be covered by the 'home' fans who are now expected to add an extra 120miles to their normal pittodrie trip (and thats only if they live in the city. Even more if they are coming from the shire. Easter Road did not have the problem of developers building lots of new flats in such proximety. The roads around it are also much wider and none of their stands backed onto a main road. They also have a nice deal with the Albion trust to share the carpark behind their new main stand and also thumbed them a few quid in the process. And the other big plus for the hibees is they sold off several players for a few million each so could afford to pay for it all.

Ibrox took 10 years to redevelop (7years to plan & research, 3 years to build). It was also funded by a massive fans initiative and they had the luxury of knowing they would get 40000 punters through the door every second week so sponsorship was basically a given. It was also done at the time when you didn't have to pay your players 1000s per week, werent having your fans poached by excessive TV coverage and they had a nice big site with lots of space around it.

Drew I reckon you should take a trip to a Scottish Planning office. Then take a trip to Aberdeen Licensing board and float the idea of a restaurant and pub in an area which is 10mins drive from the beach leisure and retail parks and full of residents who will jump down the throat of any council member who dares suggest they put so much as a corner shop on their doorstep. Make sure you mention the success of the Broadhill Bar. Then tell me where a club with debts of 10million+ comes up with min 2million per stand over the space of x number of years. Take into account that in the case of the main stand, on top of this 2million design & construction cost the club would need to find and pay for alternative accommodation for the club offices & player facilities. They would also be paying through the nose for traffic management of Pittodrie street (a road closure permit can cost £1000s per day). While the construction was taking place they would be 3600 seats and 24 executive boxes down losing even more income. Some might say the club should redevelop the south stand first but while that happens the club is still paying the maintenance costs of the main stand and would be 8500 seats down. When it was finished it is not ideally placed for any kind of restaurant or shop development and the extra infrastructure required for such things would reduce the space for fans facilities and seating even further. A football club is not the same as a cinema. Cinemas are for everyone. People like cinemas especially when they suddenly find themselves without one - Oban residents recently got their local cinema back up and running. Thanks to modern technology they can also be run on quite a tight budget and with relatively few staff. Football is not for everyone. There are lots of people who would be overjoyed if Pittodrie & AFC and even the whole scottish league vanished. And professional football teams are not cheap. Staff & players wages, Catering costs, Stewards & policing, Utilities for floodlights & undersoil heating etc, stadium maintenance & security, marketing and many many more outgoings all of which need to covered by fans coming through the turnstiles in ever decreasing numbers, relatively tiny handouts from TV companies and the governing bodies and sponsors. Get your high school economics class to research what it cost to run an SPL football team. Then introduce them to health & safety rules, planning processes & building regulations, and good old fashioned debt with a healthy interest rate. Then point out the product they have to turnaround is slowly dying because people would rather pay £40 a month to sit in the warm watching Barcelona & Man United on their big screen TVs than sit in sub zero damp conditions watching the dons play Kilmarnock and co. I reckon some would say 'why are we doing this?' and the rest would say 'fuck off, its a dying business, I'm not touching that' The club is like a pensioner living in a million pound house. Asset rich but cash poor and the heating is getting more expensive every year fuck im depressing myself. Wish this had been brought up 12years ago when I was still in the early years of uni and was yet to experience the disappointment of the real world of construction & businiess

2 questions 1) Who pays for this development? The only asset the club has of any real value is the land Pittodrie sits on. 2) How do you fit 15000 seats into a space which UK building regulations, Planning restrictions, & safety standards and Uefa Rules only allows for approx 7-8000?

We are But eventually Pittodrie will start to follow the likes of Firhill & Palmerston Park ergo have at least one stand which is either unsafe, or too expensive to make safe for spectators. Main Stand will go first followed eventually by the South Stand so we end up with a unique 9638 capacity stadium which only has stands behind the goals.

Imagine what would have happened if Wood hadnt decided to gatecrash the Peacocks arts centre plans Something might actually be getting done to the Gardens right now and the current Aberdeen council might never have been voted in

Blaming Milne for a planning decision is short sighted as far as i'm concerned. If he and the others who were behind Calder park are not currently writing to the DPEA then I might be suspiscous but no matter how many experts, consultants etc you call in to help you the planning system in this country is a nightmare. A building warrant and completion certificate etc can be obtained so long as you are prepared to spend the cash because that is based on rules and regulations. Planning on the other hand is a lottery and all too easy fucked up by outside influence (see Prince Charles' antics). Ive had Councils send us written assurances that Planning permission would be granted only for the matter to be taken out of a planning officers hands and thrown out with very little justification and what happened last night all seems way too familiar. Arguments about improving the areas, facilities, new jobs etc can easily fall on deaf ears if someone just doesnt like the idea. That is why the appeals board was brought in and why you also have the option to go to the Government for a ruling. This does not always result in nice developments - see Aberdeen Beach - but it does reduce the instances of nimby-ism. Sidenote can anyone confirm if the new Union Terrace Gardens actually went for Planning permission as I dont recall this being mentioned. The original scheme did and it was granted. Next the strategy to move from Pittodrie has come about because the stadium is boxed in - we covered this last April - and asides from the fact the club has no cash to spend on redevelopment (I'll assume there will be someone thinking Milne should pay for it out of his own pocket - Jog on if you have those thoughts. Football is a business not a charity. Find an aberdonian Jack Walker and then we might be onto something) any new stand is immediately covered by the latest building regulations and safety standards so the capacities would be drastically reduced. If the club were to dare to approach a bank and ask for loan based on building new stands which will result in a reduction in potential income the they would be laughed out of the room. Milne Running down the stadium you say? Asides from the RDS that stadium was in pretty poor nick before he came along and the club has continued to spend money on maintenance to obtain safety certificates for the other 3 stands. They even actually replaced a large chunk of the main stand roof. If he had announced he was putting the club into more debt to rebuild any one of those stands he would have been crucified plus the bank would have told him to get to fuck. Had he announced he was putting the club into debt to buy the old gas main land at the back of the south stand he would have been crucified and the bank would have told him to get to fuck. What would you have down if you were in his shoes? Now remember you are a businessman who managed to build a small construction empire out of pretty much fuck all, not a euromillions lottery winner. Overseeing the club over the most unsuccessful period since the war is his fault you say? Not the advent of the Bosman Ruling removing a major source of income for smaller clubs? Not the massive influx of TV money which means part time english teams can outspend a scottish team from a fairly large city?Not the excessive TV coverage which has reduced crowds for almost every club as fans would rather watch a premiership or spanish game in the pub or house than go to their local clubs game resulting in the double edge sword of the small clubs putting up the prices to make up for the lost income. Not impatient fans demanding the club fork out silly money and wages on mercenary players who dont give a fuck who they play for or how they perform? Not the Governing bodies for reducing funding for youth teams, cancelling reserve leagues, and bending over backwards to suit the needs of two teams? Not the bizarre rule that football managers etc can do a shite job, get sacked but still recieve a massive pay off??? If it hadnt been Milne it would have been someone else.