Europa League Playoff - BK Hacken vs Dons

[Kowalski]

Have you been on the glue Rico? Our pen was an absolute stonewaller. 
 

Apart from that you’re right, I thought we were a shambles tonight. 

[RicoS321]

1 minute ago, Kowalski said:

Have you been on the glue Rico? Our pen was an absolute stonewaller. 

Stonewaller in the modern game, yes. He's not in control of the football, he just kicks it and throws himself over the leg of the guy. It's as bullshit as the handballs that are given every week. There was very clearly contact, but football is a contact sport. Duk isn't impeded, because to be impeded you have to actually be going somewhere, with the intent to play football. Duk went solely into that situation to try and win a penalty. The ref was right there and saw what happened and chose not to give it. He saw the contact, hence why he didn't book the player, he just deemed it not worthy of a penalty. In my opinion he was completely correct. You take that incident out of context with VAR and television replays and you end up with a penalty. That's how he game works now. It's pathetic, and it's a shite and cowardly way to win a penalty, which was typical of Duk's overall performance tonight.

[Panda]

The tie was a month too early really. I think Robson will sort the defence the same way he did last season, and our strikers - especially the quality of Miovski and Duk - won't miss those chances all season.

l'm not worried though. The first eleven is okay, few players can and will improve, and we'll be alright this season.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Panda

[DantheDon]

6 minutes ago, Panda said:

The tie was a month too early really. I think Robson will sort the defence the same way he did last season, and our strikers - especially the quality of Miovski and Duk - won't miss those chances all season.

l'm not worried though. The first eleven is okay, few players can and will improve, and we'll be alright this season.

Also something that nobody seems to have mentioned is that hacken are half way through there season. We are half way through a squad rebuild and few players are definately a bit off the pace. At least there no chance of us losing Duk or Miovski tomorrow based on scouts watching tonight.

[RicoS321]

17 minutes ago, DantheDon said:

Also something that nobody seems to have mentioned is that hacken are half way through there season. We are half way through a squad rebuild and few players are definately a bit off the pace. At least there no chance of us losing Duk or Miovski tomorrow based on scouts watching tonight.

Absolutely, but that doesn't excuse basic organisational errors and a complete inability to change them. Unless we get Baccus (or similar) in too, we simply don't have a midfield that fits the system that Robson wants to play, which he seems not to have noticed. 

[DantheDon]

38 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Absolutely, but that doesn't excuse basic organisational errors and a complete inability to change them. Unless we get Baccus (or similar) in too, we simply don't have a midfield that fits the system that Robson wants to play, which he seems not to have noticed. 

I tend to agree that reinforcements would be nice. As I said above I think we've missed Ramadani in there. That said I do think it will improve as the team play together and gain a bit more coherentcy. Three players that started tonight have barely been in the door for more than a week, so I do think there's some excusing the errors. We weren't terrible tonight and I think Hacken (with Sadiq) where a fair match for us. We just weren't clinical enough for me. 

[OrlandoDon]

4 hours ago, Panda said:

The tie was a month too early really. I think Robson will sort the defence the same way he did last season, and our strikers - especially the quality of Miovski and Duk - won't miss those chances all season.

l'm not worried though. The first eleven is okay, few players can and will improve, and we'll be alright this season.

Kind of the way I feel. A dozen new signings and not like they all arrived together at the beginning of preseason. And I still feel we’re a center mid away from having done good business. But, as also mentioned, they are mid season, many of ours didn’t get a full preseason, and have few games under their belts. Add bojan coming back from injury, no way is he fully sharp. My only disappointment is duk, should have scored in both legs.

cnference league is a good fit for us, a few more weeks to gel and some winnable games perhaps.

[Goldie03]

I watched the game "live" when I got home at midnight and didn't fast forward once ffs but really never thought we were winning the game once Hacken scored. 

Really missed Ramidani and maybe the reason Clarkson doesn't look like setting the heather alight. 

Thought Duk was woeful tbh - everything was a bit frantic and not much composure in the final third.

Don't think we will lose anyone in the window today on those performances and hopefully a decent group draw with some interesting and maybe beatable teams.

Terrible week for all Scottish teams in Europe.........did smile when I saw Hearts score and Goldson's OG was a thing of beauty!

 

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

10 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

We're wedded to the 3-5-2, or variation of it, because we need to play Duk and Miovski.

Don't see why we cannot just change it to a 4-4-2 and get rid of the square pegs in round holes.  Get Devlin into right back where he belongs and see if Rubezic is more suited to playing in a two alongside either Jensen, McKenzie or MacDonald.

Bring Johnny Hayes into the team on one of the wings and either try Morris on the other wing as he is clearly not a full back or wing back and if not, try someone else on the other wing, maybe Duncan.

 

 

[Jute]

Not sure folk aren’t kidding themselves about us being any better off in the conference league. 
 

We were defensively poor last night and I am more and more convinced we have signed players who cannot play in a 3-5-2. 
 

As Kowalski said we have not played well this season which may improve with time for new players to settle but I am far from convinced. 

[RicoS321]

5 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

Don't see why we cannot just change it to a 4-4-2 and get rid of the square pegs in round holes.  Get Devlin into right back where he belongs and see if Rubezic is more suited to playing in a two alongside either Jensen, McKenzie or MacDonald.

Bring Johnny Hayes into the team on one of the wings and either try Morris on the other wing as he is clearly not a full back or wing back and if not, try someone else on the other wing, maybe Duncan.

He has done that when chasing games this season, with Duncan shifting awkwardly into left back. The main reason we don't do that is because you need two very fit guys in midfield to pull it off, and we don't have that. A 4-2-3-1 would be the best setup in my opinion, but Duk proved an absolute liability out wide in a similar setup last season, and it's undoubted that Robson would try to shoehorn him in there. I think he'll persist with the 3-5-2 (or variation), and everything about the new big lad signing backs that up. If we got Baccus in, that would make me feel a bit better. As is stands, we're way too light in midfield to play 3-5-2. 

[RicoS321]

1 minute ago, Jute said:

Not sure folk aren’t kidding themselves about us being any better off in the conference league. 

We're not better off, other than financially (temporarily). I don't really see group stage European football as a good thing for Scottish football at all to be honest. You've got chairman with trigger fingers, teams trying to build large squads in single windows, and unearned money going to one or two teams in an attempt to create another financial gap to make our league even less competitive. It's just a really shit way of creating tournaments (league cup aside I suppose, whose purpose isn't money). Despite the good atmosphere, I didn't really enjoy last night, and it's a really shite feeling to be that team that wins the ridiculously lucrative runner up prize. I'm used to it being the scum getting knocked out of Europe 18 times a season, it's just weird when it's us. It's like those shitey "plate" rounds you used to get at tournaments as kids, where all the losers from the first round created a mirror tournament to the real thing. It's desperate stuff. 

[Panda]

Don't worry about it @RicoS321, we've only got another year of group stage football to worry about before our coefficient goes crashing through the trapdoor.

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

He has done that when chasing games this season, with Duncan shifting awkwardly into left back.  

Yes but now we have a recognised left back in McGarry so surely should not be a problem.

 

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

The main reason we don't do that is because you need two very fit guys in midfield to pull it off, and we don't have that. 

What are you on about, Rico?  Are you saying Shinnie and Clarkson could not play as the two central midfield players or are you on about the wide players?

[OrlandoDon]

1 hour ago, Jute said:

Not sure folk aren’t kidding themselves about us being any better off in the conference league. 
 

We were defensively poor last night and I am more and more convinced we have signed players who cannot play in a 3-5-2. 
 

As Kowalski said we have not played well this season which may improve with time for new players to settle but I am far from convinced. 

Explain the whole ‘can’t play in a 3-5-2’ comment…..who??

[OrlandoDon]

Quite a bit of bitching and moaning, come on boys. Had we scored our chances we’d be in the group stage. We didn’t though but we’re still in a European competition with exciting games ahead. That’s a good thing. Would rather see that than play group stage league cup football? Think we missed a healthy Macdonald last night, that’s a factor. We also lost to the Swedish league champions who are in mid season, that’s no embarrassment.

We’ve lost one game in the league to our league champions, and we actually played quite well in that game. St mirren beat us last year. Livi away isn’t an easy fixture. Loads of signings coming in, lots of varying fitness levels, players developing chemistry, even possibly Duk and miovski a little unsettled with transfer talk. Hopefully we sign Baccus today and let’s give the team and squad time. I’ve seen enough from the new signings to suggest we’ll be a decent team this year. It’s September 1, breathe!!

[Jute]

54 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Explain the whole ‘can’t play in a 3-5-2’ comment…..who??

Rubi has looked very uncomfortable in it in either centre or right side of a three. McGarry does not look defensively strong enough for the wing back role. He did not track back in either of games I have watched him play. Morris is even worse on the other side. 
 

I am not convinced Jensen is comfortable being the left of the 3 either although that may have been because his wing back was offering him no protection. 
 

The above of course are early impressions and with time they might learn to play these roles but I remain to be convinced. 

[OrlandoDon]

And yes, I think we are better off in a way in the conference league. There are some weaker teams in there. Some good ones too obviously. Based on some of the comments today we’ll get crucified by some of you if we get a European pumping. It’s an exciting adventure, won’t be perfect or pretty at times but enjoy it ffs.

robson is trying to implement a more attacking style, I think we hear and see that. It’s work in progress with new players yet we’re getting complains about our performance. I’d rather we tried this than the mcinnes tactics. Or Goodwin.

lastly, refreshing to sign most players rather than a bunch of loaners coming in. Congrats to the club for that. We’ve got this group for a couple of years at least. It’s been less than a month, scrambling to put a team on the field. Again, give it time.

[OrlandoDon]

16 minutes ago, Jute said:

Rubi has looked very uncomfortable in it in either centre or right side of a three. McGarry does not look defensively strong enough for the wing back role. He did not track back in either of games I have watched him play. Morris is even worse on the other side. 
 

I am not convinced Jensen is comfortable being the left of the 3 either although that may have been because his wing back was offering him no protection. 
 

The above of course are early impressions and with time they might lean to play these roles but I remain to be convinced. 

Come on man. Defenders have been signed to play alongside Macdonald, the main guy in a three. Let’s see how that goes. A lot has been asked of ruby since he’s come in. He’s made mistakes but has also done plenty positive too. He’s also been exposed at times too, like the penalty last night. Shouldn’t have dived in but was left 1v1 against a very good player. Jensen hasn’t even been with us a week! Mcgarry shows enough promise too and he’s come half way across the world within a couple of weeks while not playing for a couple of months and just having had his first kid, only to leave them. Lots of factors, but giving them time is only fair.

morris is shite. We can certainly agree on that. But he’ll be devlin back up once Macdonald is fully fit.

rama was missed last night, we do need another grafter and holding mid in the squad. One of the reasons our defense does look exposed at times, leading to the questions about the ability of our defenders. Hopefully that gets fixed today.

Edited September 1, 2023 by OrlandoDon

[wee toon red]

I'm in agreement with those who say we need a Ramadani replacement, particularly if we're going to continue with three at the back. Without another covering midfielder, we'll struggle every time we play a good team.

It's early days in the season and I'm still confident that the team will come together - and that when it does we'll be better than last season and comfortably the third best team in the league.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

robson is trying to implement a more attacking style, I think we hear and see that. It’s work in progress with new players yet we’re getting complains about our performance. I’d rather we tried this than the mcinnes tactics. Or Goodwin

That was Goodwin last night, that's why there was concern. He left us completely exposed and had no clue how to change it, or any suggestion he realised anything was wrong. He might dress it up as attacking football, but that's not at all what last night was, it was just disorganised (with plenty of mitigating factors as you stress). Playing a system with at least four players playing in roles not suited to them was classic Goodwin. Robson immediately recognised that Ramadani couldn't screen the defence and quickly recognised Duk couldn't play on the wing, yet he can't see that Morris isn't a wing back, McGrath isn't a number eight, Rubezic can't play centre of a three and McGarry didn't yet have the fitness to play the wing back in front of a guy in his first start. These are management criticisms of course, not players.

Nobody is "not giving people time", they're just passing judgement on what they've seen so far and the state of the squad if no more additions happen today. Everyone criticising is doing so well aware of the fact that players have just come in the door, and others are struggling for fitness, but that doesn't stop us from being able to see the type of player we've got (or not got) and how they fit in. It's not a direct criticism of the players, simply a current state of play for healthy debate. By saying "come on, give them a chance" or whatever, it doesn't really add to that debate, because nobody on here is heading down to pittodrie to scream abuse at them, or sending them hate mail or train tickets to England. 

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

Defenders have been signed to play alongside Macdonald, the main guy in a three. Let’s see how that goes. A lot has been asked of ruby since he’s come in. He’s made mistakes but has also done plenty positive too. He’s also been exposed at times too, like the penalty last night. Shouldn’t have dived in but was left 1v1 against a very good player. Jensen hasn’t even been with us a week!

Yep, MacDonald missing was a big loss, that's why putting Rubezic in there was inexplicable. Play Rubezic in the role he'll take when MacDonald returns, because he clearly doesn't have the ability to play in the centre. Jensen looked like he might manage the central role, and take McKenzie in. As soon as you see how badly we were defending, at least make the change (McKenzie for Morris). If you're concerned Jensen is only just in, then play Devlin centre, and Rubezic right. Devlin has the awareness and ability to actually come across and cover when the fast guy skins Rubezic, where Rubezic just stood in a position.

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

And yes, I think we are better off in a way in the conference league. There are some weaker teams in there. Some good ones too obviously. Based on some of the comments today we’ll get crucified by some of you if we get a European pumping. It’s an exciting adventure, won’t be perfect or pretty at times but enjoy it ffs.

Personally, this season, I think we'd be better off being out of Europe after last night. I think we need the time to build a squad that can play twice a week and I think that being in the conference will significantly hinder our league and likely even cost the manager his job. Like last season, I expect our first eleven will be good, but this season we've got a huge volume of fixtures that will be too much for them. I'm a pragmatic person who's sat through the McGhee and Paterson years, and I know that the expectations that come with that conference league qualification will be high among those that didn't sit through those and are now attending pittodrie. The impatience will grow and it'll affect the team and there'll be zero understanding shown (see Robbie neilson for hearts) - we're just not ready for the extra games. Hacken were an average side, typical of the weaker sides in the conference. Even with the new guys getting up to fitness, our squad is weak and our manager is inflexible. If we got Baccus - who would fit perfectly into the Ramadani role - I'd be much happier because he'd allow Shinnie some breath, and give Clarkson the space to do what he does, with McGrath filling in on Sundays. I don't see that happening today to be honest and we may end up with some unknown quantity instead, which isn't really good enough - we need as close to certainty as possible (see Devlin). In short, I'm very happy to give Robson time and space, but I know everyone around me at pittodrie won't. I think it's best to give honest critique now to set expectations!

[OrlandoDon]

Rico, I just think people like you are way overreacting. Had we taken our chances last night, or even the first leg, we’d have won games, be through, and be having a very different conversation. It’s work in progress and their early goal killed us, we were chasing the game after that and they exposed us for sure. But it’s early season and we need to breathe and relax. Keep in mind we’re quite a young and inexperienced team too, and young manager, other relevant factors.

said day 1 Rama needs replaced, he did a lot of the grunt work that helped our back 3. Whether it’s ruby and Jensen, or scales and pollock, we got stretched last night and our midfield contributed in the D getting exposed. Devlin played like a right back at times, I do agree he was played out of position.

there’s criticism of Robson here in regards to formation and who plays where, we’re barely a month in and there’s questions of the manager. Come on, just cos hibs sacked there guy, let’s not eat ourselves just yet.

to say we’d be better off not playing in Europe, go fuck yourself. What a stupid thing to say. Europe gets us exposure, money, and fun European nights. Some of our signings wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Europe, like clarkson. I’d also give my left nut to be at pittodrie for one of those nights. Yes, it will make it hard, but as we see pretty much every season, things are hard. Last year we were bottom 6 and going nowhere without Europe. I’d take this year, losing to hacken, maybe getting the odd spanking in the group stage, or maybe qualifying from the group. It’s exciting as compared to playing east fife away in July. Yes, we’ll lose at home to Dundee or hibs because we are exhausted, but I’d take this season and Europe over alternatives every time.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

Rico, I just think people like you are way overreacting. Had we taken our chances last night, or even the first leg, we’d have won games, be through, and be having a very different conversation. It’s work in progress and their early goal killed us, we were chasing the game after that and they exposed us for sure. But it’s early season and we need to breathe and relax. Keep in mind we’re quite a young and inexperienced team too, and young manager, other relevant factors.

said day 1 Rama needs replaced, he did a lot of the grunt work that helped our back 3. Whether it’s ruby and Jensen, or scales and pollock, we got stretched last night and our midfield contributed in the D getting exposed. Devlin played like a right back at times, I do agree he was played out of position.

there’s criticism of Robson here in regards to formation and who plays where, we’re barely a month in and there’s questions of the manager. Come on, just cos hibs sacked there guy, let’s not eat ourselves just yet.

to say we’d be better off not playing in Europe, go fuck yourself. What a stupid thing to say. Europe gets us exposure, money, and fun European nights. Some of our signings wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Europe, like clarkson. I’d also give my left nut to be at pittodrie for one of those nights. Yes, it will make it hard, but as we see pretty much every season, things are hard. Last year we were bottom 6 and going nowhere without Europe. I’d take this year, losing to hacken, maybe getting the odd spanking in the group stage, or maybe qualifying from the group. It’s exciting as compared to playing east fife away in July. Yes, we’ll lose at home to Dundee or hibs because we are exhausted, but I’d take this season and Europe over alternatives every time.

I didn't say that I didn't want us in Europe, I said the conference. I like a European run, but it should be earned. The runs under McInnes and calderwood to an extent, were earned on merit and it was easy to see where we were and where we needed to improve. Had we qualified under McInnes it would have been merited and we'd have had a squad capable of being there by default. Had hearts beaten paok, which they didn't because they weren't good enough, it'd have been a good barometer of whether or not they were ready. That's what the qualifying rounds give you, and there's good reason for them. Those are the rounds that we have the squad to compete in and where we are as a club right now. We are completely overstretching ourselves by being in a tournament we don't have the squad for (unless the new big lad is fucking amazing) yet, and I think that will have a knock on effect well into next season. It's simply a question of timing. When we're ready to compete in the conference then we should, otherwise I believe there's a strong chance it'll lead to the undeserved sacking of our young manager and the slaughtering of his young team. Essentially we're coming at it from the same angle. I sit at pittodrie every week and I know the current expectations of the fans, and I think that we're on a hiding to nothing. 

In terms of criticism of Robson, it's all constructive. Nobody is "eating themselves" or any other such thing. Nor is anyone calling for the manager to be sacked. There is no hysteria or overreaction from anyone on here, I'm confused as to why you think there is, just simple pointing out of flaws in the setup and approach to games. All constructive (apart from my criticism of Morris with respect to him being removed from the planet) and balanced. All heavily caveated with the fact that there is significant turnover and lack of fitness. It's like your projecting things you've heard elsewhere, or perhaps you're misreading the tone of my comments. Which is fine, that's what forums are for.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

Had we taken our chances last night, or even the first leg, we’d have won games, be through, and be having a very different conversation. It’s work in progress and their early goal killed us, we were chasing the game after that and they exposed us for sure

This is worth its own response, as I think we heavily differ here. Their early goal was coming way before it happened. I mentioned to the lad next to me that Robson needed to change something before we lose a goal. Our approach was niave in the extreme and Robson couldn't see it. The reason I said it "was Goodwin last night" was because we saw this exact same thing in our match against the Huns at Ibrox under him. We went a goal up from Miovski, and he continued to play 3-1-4-2 football with Ramadani in front of the defence. He called it attacking football when everyone could see it was just stupid tactics that left us too exposed, with no view to changing it. It was playing to the luck of the gods, and that was what was on display last night. We weren't exposed after the goal, we were exposed throughout the entire game. That we created some great chances was only to be expected, yet it took a dive in the box from a player that was going nowhere to even get us a goal. After that, we didn't calmly take possession of the game and work them around waiting for an opening as we did over there, we just went kamikaze and deservedly lost another. 

If we'd taken our chances last night, it would have papered over the cracks of an extremely naïve performance. On another day it might have gone for us, but that's because some days you get a lot of luck, it wasn't earned last night. Not through lack of effort on the part of the players.