Dons vs Saints

[OrlandoDon]

So much brutal long ball. My eyes hurt. and so much of that is to utilize duk who, from what I saw first half, was poor. Again. The 352 was the go to in order to accommodate duk, and now we’re a long ball team for him. All or nothing it seems.

Edited October 8, 2023 by OrlandoDon

[Kowalski]

Just back. Pish. 
I think our back three are looking strong, but apart from that nobody gets pass marks. 
 

The midfield isn’t working, Clarkson definitely looked better when he came on and played further forward, but I don’t think we seem to be able to settle on the best looking midfield option. There was no creativity in there for the majority of the game. 
 

 

[Elgindon]

Agreed,the back 3 were pretty sound,but we looked so disjointed going forward,esp first half.Not enough players showing for the ball,or providing a passing option.Better in the second half when we showed more urgency,might have helped if we'd started the game that way.

  Saints played a bit better than expected,but toothless up front.Pass marks for the back 3 and Barron, rest were a bit meh.

  

[KGB]

 The question I have is why we always struggle against any team which sits in particularly if we don’t get an early goal. We should have a bit more nous and quality about us to dispose of these teams but we regularly play all our football in front of their defence and shift the ball about in a pedestrian manner. Our coaches should surely have a clue how to unlock these teams other than repeatedly doing the same thing. 

[dons8321]

1 hour ago, KGB said:

 The question I have is why we always struggle against any team which sits in particularly if we don’t get an early goal. We should have a bit more nous and quality about us to dispose of these teams but we regularly play all our football in front of their defence and shift the ball about in a pedestrian manner. Our coaches should surely have a clue how to unlock these teams other than repeatedly doing the same thing. 

How many long throws did we take and how many did we win...no idea and zero.  And then how many goal-kicks did Roos (and by the way he looks very dodgy when the ball is pumped into the 6-yd box) take to the same quadrant and how many did we win...no idea and zero.  What is that cliché about doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different outcome?   Similarly, how often do I say FFS he'll connect with the first defender whenever Hayes trots across to takes a corner?...every fucking time!

[OrlandoDon]

1 hour ago, dons8321 said:

How many long throws did we take and how many did we win...no idea and zero.  And then how many goal-kicks did Roos (and by the way he looks very dodgy when the ball is pumped into the 6-yd box) take to the same quadrant and how many did we win...no idea and zero.  What is that cliché about doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different outcome?   Similarly, how often do I say FFS he'll connect with the first defender whenever Hayes trots across to takes a corner?...every fucking time!

Roos has always looked dodgy with high balls and crosses close to goal. We just defended higher up as the year went on last year so he wasn’t exposed quite so much. But he’s not good with crosses and high balls, he’s a shot stopper.

[RicoS321]

3 hours ago, Kowalski said:

but I don’t think we seem to be able to settle on the best looking midfield option

You mean Robson doesn't? Once again today he insisted on the number six with two ahead. Whilst Barron is perfectly capable of playing that, McGrath can't do the forward role and, in turn, Shinnie then gets missed out too. Bringing out a positive in one player to the detriment of two others makes zero sense. As it hasn't every game this season. It's fucking ridiculous that he's persisting with it still. 

There were too many players off it today: Shinnie, McGrath, Devlin, Jensen, and especially Duk. The subs improved things but it was still very hit and hope and frenetic. I thought Clarkson and Polvara did alright when they came on. I don't think Robson's go-to 4-3-3 works at all and I'd like to see us try 4-2-3-1 with Duncan and perhaps Besuijen wide when we're chasing it. I feel sorry for Hayes who's being asked to play wing back, which is an unforgiving role if you're not as comfortable going beyond players as you used to be (not that Devlin, McKenzie or Duncan do much of that from those positions either).

[dons8321]

1 minute ago, RicoS321 said:

You mean Robson doesn't? Once again today he insisted on the number six with two ahead.

Sorry, are you saying that our left half was behind our right back?

[RicoS321]

41 minutes ago, dons8321 said:

Sorry, are you saying that our left half was behind our right back?

No, not the actual shirt number! He plays Clarkson or Barron in a "number six" role (he's mentioned it a few times), essentially taking the ball from the defence and shifting it quickly to attack. It suits a creative passer, and requires good movement in the forward two (50% of them do this well). It also requires two hard working players in front picking up the loose direct balls that don't make it (50% of them do this well). It hasn't worked since Ramadani left, and isn't likely to. We're basically playing a 3-3-2-2 or 3-1-4-2. 

[OrlandoDon]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

You mean Robson doesn't? Once again today he insisted on the number six with two ahead. Whilst Barron is perfectly capable of playing that, McGrath can't do the forward role and, in turn, Shinnie then gets missed out too. Bringing out a positive in one player to the detriment of two others makes zero sense. As it hasn't every game this season. It's fucking ridiculous that he's persisting with it still. 

There were too many players off it today: Shinnie, McGrath, Devlin, Jensen, and especially Duk. The subs improved things but it was still very hit and hope and frenetic. I thought Clarkson and Polvara did alright when they came on. I don't think Robson's go-to 4-3-3 works at all and I'd like to see us try 4-2-3-1 with Duncan and perhaps Besuijen wide when we're chasing it. I feel sorry for Hayes who's being asked to play wing back, which is an unforgiving role if you're not as comfortable going beyond players as you used to be (not that Devlin, McKenzie or Duncan do much of that from those positions either).

I think we have to give Robson a break to an extent. He’s had this squad for about six weeks. We’ve had two games a week and an international break. Not a lot of training going on. I’m more critical of recruitment and an imbalanced squad, but Robson has to be given the opportunity to try to create a team. He has to either develop a Rama replacement or adapt the formation, and that takes time. Throw in duk being off form, clarkson too, and those are players he planned to build around. Playing players for one or two games and expecting a performance is a lot to ask, especially on a team who didn’t start the league well and aren’t exactly oozing confidence and understanding.

I think it’s very easy for us armchair fans to be critical, but coaching is hard. I think the first thing we have to see is a style of play. Rightly or wrongly, we saw what glass was trying to do building out from the back. I’m still not clear if we’re meant to be a kick and run long ball team relying on duk’s pace . As others have said, I’d like to see us build through midfield, but we’ve got to figure out who plays in there and in what role.

[Panda]

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

I think we have to give Robson a break to an extent. He’s had this squad for about six weeks. We’ve had two games a week and an international break. Not a lot of training going on. I’m more critical of recruitment and an imbalanced squad, but Robson has to be given the opportunity to try to create a team

While I agree with all this, Robson isn't helping himself with the long ball football.

If he wanted a passing football philosophy and was having to revert to long ball because of the personnel he had or because it was being effective short term, then fine.

But we struggle when we go long ball and we look good when we keep it on the deck.

I think too often Robson expects it to be a battle against certain teams and sets the team up that way.

[RicoS321]

10 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

I think we have to give Robson a break to an extent. He’s had this squad for about six weeks. We’ve had two games a week and an international break. Not a lot of training going on. I’m more critical of recruitment and an imbalanced squad, but Robson has to be given the opportunity to try to create a team. He has to either develop a Rama replacement or adapt the formation, and that takes time. Throw in duk being off form, clarkson too, and those are players he planned to build around. Playing players for one or two games and expecting a performance is a lot to ask, especially on a team who didn’t start the league well and aren’t exactly oozing confidence and understanding.

I think it’s very easy for us armchair fans to be critical, but coaching is hard. I think the first thing we have to see is a style of play. Rightly or wrongly, we saw what glass was trying to do building out from the back. I’m still not clear if we’re meant to be a kick and run long ball team relying on duk’s pace . As others have said, I’d like to see us build through midfield, but we’ve got to figure out who plays in there and in what role.

It's nothing to do with time, it's simply that he's trying to do exactly the same thing despite the fact that it's failing because the thing he's trying to do suits less players than it doesn't. Time doesn't make McGrath a hard working number 8, nor Clarkson. You say that we first need to see a style of play, but this is it. His style of play is centred around the number six taking the ball from the defence and going direct, with the two midfielders winning the second balls and quickly "recycling". He's been doing it since January. It hasn't worked this season because Ramadani isn't here. Our successes this season have all come when we've done something different (the RC home game had Barron and Shinnie sitting with one ahead - McGrath then Clarkson). We passed the ball through them and that had the knock on effect of bringing Duk into the game. So we already have the answer to who plays where if we're building through the midfield, it's just that isn't Robson's style. His style hasn't worked yet this season because the players don't have the correct attributes to do it (not something that can be taught in a season). He can either keep throwing away points until January by persisting until we get someone in that does have the correct attributes, or he can change it. I have been very quick to praise Robson when he gets it right, and I think it's correct to be critical when he reverts back to his previously failed plan. I find it bizarre that he didn't just stick with what worked. It's a weird form of dogma to have - an ideological belief in a particular formation. It's almost like he sees himself still on the pitch and the number six role would have been something he'd have thrived in with his passing ability, and so he's desperate to see it succeed. I recognise that's a fair bit of a leap on my part, but I struggle to think of any reason for such wilful blindness. 

Specifically yesterday, though, it was interesting to watch it in action. Shinnie was far too far forward and when the defenders were inevitably easily winning the long balls, they were getting distance on the headers that just sailed past Shinnie and McGrath. That meant they were both coming from behind the play to win back the ball and thus expending a lot more energy and often isolating Barron. Shinnie, especially, needs to be facing the way he's supposed to be heading and driving forward and the game just largely bypassed McGrath, who is just out of his depth in that role. There was basically a compounding of errors which, with a busy fixture list, was the last thing we needed.

 

Edit: to add, it possibly isn't glaringly obvious watching it on TV, and it possibly isn't glaringly obvious watching it two feet from the edge of the park in the dugout (I've never understand why managers insist on such a pish view of a fitba game). I watch from the RDL, so it's very easy to see the layout of the team and what they are or aren't achieving with it. Those higher up with a side on view would also see it. I'm assuming that Robson has someone in the main stand relaying back to him their thoughts (like Austin MacPhee does for Scotland for example)?

Edited October 9, 2023 by RicoS321

[OrlandoDon]

9 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

It's nothing to do with time, it's simply that he's trying to do exactly the same thing despite the fact that it's failing because the thing he's trying to do suits less players than it doesn't. Time doesn't make McGrath a hard working number 8, nor Clarkson. You say that we first need to see a style of play, but this is it. His style of play is centred around the number six taking the ball from the defence and going direct, with the two midfielders winning the second balls and quickly "recycling". He's been doing it since January. It hasn't worked this season because Ramadani isn't here. Our successes this season have all come when we've done something different (the RC home game had Barron and Shinnie sitting with one ahead - McGrath then Clarkson). We passed the ball through them and that had the knock on effect of bringing Duk into the game. So we already have the answer to who plays where if we're building through the midfield, it's just that isn't Robson's style. His style hasn't worked yet this season because the players don't have the correct attributes to do it (not something that can be taught in a season). He can either keep throwing away points until January by persisting until we get someone in that does have the correct attributes, or he can change it. I have been very quick to praise Robson when he gets it right, and I think it's correct to be critical when he reverts back to his previously failed plan. I find it bizarre that he didn't just stick with what worked. It's a weird form of dogma to have - an ideological belief in a particular formation. It's almost like he sees himself still on the pitch and the number six role would have been something he'd have thrived in with his passing ability, and so he's desperate to see it succeed. I recognise that's a fair bit of a leap on my part, but I struggle to think of any reason for such wilful blindness. 

Specifically yesterday, though, it was interesting to watch it in action. Shinnie was far too far forward and when the defenders were inevitably easily winning the long balls, they were getting distance on the headers that just sailed past Shinnie and McGrath. That meant they were both coming from behind the play to win back the ball and thus expending a lot more energy and often isolating Barron. Shinnie, especially, needs to be facing the way he's supposed to be heading and driving forward and the game just largely bypassed McGrath, who is just out of his depth in that role. There was basically a compounding of errors which, with a busy fixture list, was the last thing we needed.

 

Edit: to add, it possibly isn't glaringly obvious watching it on TV, and it possibly isn't glaringly obvious watching it two feet from the edge of the park in the dugout (I've never understand why managers insist on such a pish view of a fitba game). I watch from the RDL, so it's very easy to see the layout of the team and what they are or aren't achieving with it. Those higher up with a side on view would also see it. I'm assuming that Robson has someone in the main stand relaying back to him their thoughts (like Austin MacPhee does for Scotland for example)?

There’s plenty I agree with in your post but I still think us armchair fans think things quite often are easy to see and easy to fix. Having played and coached (not to that level) it’s not as easy as it sounds. Don’t know your experience but quite often things don’t go as planned. You don’t scrap things after minimal practice and very limited results. Robson implements tactics based on his knowledge and experience, particularly of the players and their abilities, which I’m sure he’s still learning for some/many. He’s also planning and implementing for the long term, with minimal practice sessions, not just to scrap if we play poorly. Your comments about McGrath for example, you sound like you know him well but I’m willing to give him time. Willie Miller was a forward, don’t think he became the defender he became overnight. We’re stuck with the squad we have and he’s figuring out a lot on the fly with little practice. I also criticized the make up of our squad and Robson is having to figure out and deal with the imbalance.

saying all that, we’re god awful to watch and it’s poor. But he’s obviously building something and that’s my point on time. I hear you on throwing away points but we canned glass and Goodwin quickly, while I made my comments clear about wanting an experienced manager, give Robson time. Win yesterday and we were 4th an not doing too badly despite minimal practice and a new patchwork team learning to play together in the moment for the most part. I also added, two of his ’star’ players in duk and clarkson aren’t performing, that’s a tough spot to be in given they are clear factors in our tactics and style of play.

[RicoS321]

2 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

There’s plenty I agree with in your post but I still think us armchair fans think things quite often are easy to see and easy to fix. Having played and coached (not to that level) it’s not as easy as it sounds. Don’t know your experience but quite often things don’t go as planned. You don’t scrap things after minimal practice and very limited results. Robson implements tactics based on his knowledge and experience, particularly of the players and their abilities, which I’m sure he’s still learning for some/many. He’s also planning and implementing for the long term, with minimal practice sessions, not just to scrap if we play poorly. Your comments about McGrath for example, you sound like you know him well but I’m willing to give him time. Willie Miller was a forward, don’t think he became the defender he became overnight. We’re stuck with the squad we have and he’s figuring out a lot on the fly with little practice. I also criticized the make up of our squad and Robson is having to figure out and deal with the imbalance.

saying all that, we’re god awful to watch and it’s poor. But he’s obviously building something and that’s my point on time. I hear you on throwing away points but we canned glass and Goodwin quickly, while I made my comments clear about wanting an experienced manager, give Robson time. Win yesterday and we were 4th an not doing too badly despite minimal practice and a new patchwork team learning to play together in the moment for the most part. I also added, two of his ’star’ players in duk and clarkson aren’t performing, that’s a tough spot to be in given they are clear factors in our tactics and style of play.

For clarity, at no point am I suggesting that we get rid of Robson, and nor have I ever suggested that, just in case that wasn't clear. My experience is having watched lots and lots of football in person (and played), and I know the difference between things not going to plan, and an incorrect plan, which is the key factor here. Robson's tactics are very clear, it's obvious what he's trying to do. It wasn't like Shinnie or McGrath were wandering out of position, they were doing as instructed. The evidence for this is in every game since Robson took over, he's doing the same thing. I think McGrath is a good player, and I'm certainly not blaming him. He is, however, an attacking midfielder who doesn't go box to box (he could probably play no 6 too, he's Kenny McLean essentially). I thought/was hoping I'd missed something (I've seen a decent amount of him at both St Mirren and Utd) when we first signed him and that maybe Robson had identified that he could replace Ramadani, but it's very clear that he's not that type of player. It's not a case of giving someone time here, your mistaken, it's simply identifying his attributes. We're not giving Polvara time in the right wing position, because it's clear that he'll never be a winger. Comparatively speaking, Miller became a defender overnight. He certainly didn't get a season in the Dons team to turn him from a striker, because that would be silly, it's not a great example. A better equivalent might be the attempt to turn Magennis into a fullback, which was ridiculous (although fun). Or trying to turn Nicky Maynard into a footballer. There is no real need to be experimenting during the season. Furthermore, Robson recognised the problem and changed it for Ross County at home, before quickly reverting to type. The problem with the experiment is that it's very clear that it's causing the dip in performance of Clarkson, who was the main benificiary of the Ramadani and Shinnie partnership last season (Duk too). Duk is causing his own dip as you say.

You're correct that he's building something, and that it needs time, but what we're witnessing is formation dogma (he's not building a formation, he's building a squad). It's just stupid. If you don't have the correct players, then you tweak the formation to play to the strengths of the ones that are there until you can get the correct players in. You can change system during a season (as we've proved). There's nothing amazing about the setup he's trying that make it worthwhile, it's not entertaining and not innovative, it's only objectively good if it gets results, and I don't think we've got a single result this season playing with Sunday's setup - unless we include the point against Livi. I'm really hoping it's just stubborness rather than incompetence.

[OrlandoDon]

2 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

For clarity, at no point am I suggesting that we get rid of Robson, and nor have I ever suggested that, just in case that wasn't clear. My experience is having watched lots and lots of football in person (and played), and I know the difference between things not going to plan, and an incorrect plan, which is the key factor here. Robson's tactics are very clear, it's obvious what he's trying to do. It wasn't like Shinnie or McGrath were wandering out of position, they were doing as instructed. The evidence for this is in every game since Robson took over, he's doing the same thing. I think McGrath is a good player, and I'm certainly not blaming him. He is, however, an attacking midfielder who doesn't go box to box (he could probably play no 6 too, he's Kenny McLean essentially). I thought/was hoping I'd missed something (I've seen a decent amount of him at both St Mirren and Utd) when we first signed him and that maybe Robson had identified that he could replace Ramadani, but it's very clear that he's not that type of player. It's not a case of giving someone time here, your mistaken, it's simply identifying his attributes. We're not giving Polvara time in the right wing position, because it's clear that he'll never be a winger. Comparatively speaking, Miller became a defender overnight. He certainly didn't get a season in the Dons team to turn him from a striker, because that would be silly, it's not a great example. A better equivalent might be the attempt to turn Magennis into a fullback, which was ridiculous (although fun). Or trying to turn Nicky Maynard into a footballer. There is no real need to be experimenting during the season. Furthermore, Robson recognised the problem and changed it for Ross County at home, before quickly reverting to type. The problem with the experiment is that it's very clear that it's causing the dip in performance of Clarkson, who was the main benificiary of the Ramadani and Shinnie partnership last season (Duk too). Duk is causing his own dip as you say.

You're correct that he's building something, and that it needs time, but what we're witnessing is formation dogma (he's not building a formation, he's building a squad). It's just stupid. If you don't have the correct players, then you tweak the formation to play to the strengths of the ones that are there until you can get the correct players in. You can change system during a season (as we've proved). There's nothing amazing about the setup he's trying that make it worthwhile, it's not entertaining and not innovative, it's only objectively good if it gets results, and I don't think we've got a single result this season playing with Sunday's setup - unless we include the point against Livi. I'm really hoping it's just stubborness rather than incompetence.

Robson said McGrath can play in multiple central midfield positions. Yet to see if that’s true but I recall Robson saying that. Robson sees more than we do, knows them more that we do, and is hired in that job (because he’s a professional coach), that counts for something. For now. We’re fans. Just because we have hair and scissors doesn’t mean we can cut hair.

there’s every reason to experiment during the season. We didn’t have the squad in place preseason and with two games a week are having little serious practice. How else do you expect us to learn and improve….they have no choice but to learn on the job. I don’t think it’s crystal clear to the players what they are being asked to do, I think some is trial and error.

we don’t have the players to play the 352 like last year. We don’t have the players to really play 433/442. He’s fucked in a way trying to figure shit out on the fly. But at least we have or dadia, Rhys Williams, Morris, and have we seen anything to suggest gueye has ability? I actually rate Vinny!

I didn’t want Robson, said that many times. He doesn’t sound creative or overly intelligent. Lovely guy, a don, super player, but is he any different to Yogi Hughes or the likes? He hasn’t shown much creativity or tactical talents, but he won some games in the spring. He’s been given a really tough job, we did a really poor summer job after saying we’d get players in early, and we’re seeing the results. If we’re to be fair to the guy, as much as I don’t think we’ll be overly successful, give him a chance to develop something. You didn’t ask for him to be replaced, but you’re overly and I think unfairly critical. I just don’t want a new manager in every season. I know I don’t rate him but weirdly want to give him time, plus it also gets in my nerves when the fans think the know more than the guys who do the job 24/7.

[RicoS321]

6 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

Robson said McGrath can play in multiple central midfield positions. Yet to see if that’s true but I recall Robson saying that. Robson sees more than we do, knows them more that we do, and is hired in that job (because he’s a professional coach), that counts for something. For now. We’re fans. Just because we have hair and scissors doesn’t mean we can cut hair.

there’s every reason to experiment during the season. We didn’t have the squad in place preseason and with two games a week are having little serious practice. How else do you expect us to learn and improve….they have no choice but to learn on the job. I don’t think it’s crystal clear to the players what they are being asked to do, I think some is trial and error.

we don’t have the players to play the 352 like last year. We don’t have the players to really play 433/442. He’s fucked in a way trying to figure shit out on the fly. But at least we have or dadia, Rhys Williams, Morris, and have we seen anything to suggest gueye has ability? I actually rate Vinny!

I didn’t want Robson, said that many times. He doesn’t sound creative or overly intelligent. Lovely guy, a don, super player, but is he any different to Yogi Hughes or the likes? He hasn’t shown much creativity or tactical talents, but he won some games in the spring. He’s been given a really tough job, we did a really poor summer job after saying we’d get players in early, and we’re seeing the results. If we’re to be fair to the guy, as much as I don’t think we’ll be overly successful, give him a chance to develop something. You didn’t ask for him to be replaced, but you’re overly and I think unfairly critical. I just don’t want a new manager in every season. I know I don’t rate him but weirdly want to give him time, plus it also gets in my nerves when the fans think the know more than the guys who do the job 24/7.

I've seen plenty of instances when people know more than guys who do the job 24/7, anyone who does a bit of DIY and gets an incompetent trades person round will tell you! In the real world, it's quite common, so it seems likely that it might be applicable to football too. After all, we're not discussing coaching here, of which Robson has lots of experience, we're talking about tactics and formation. These are open to anyone who watches the game, it's free information, and the qualification for understanding tactics is watching lots of live football and understanding what you're seeing. There's nothing I'm saying about Robson's tactics that is incorrect (or, should I say, nobody is arguing directly with what I'm saying about tactics). Your argument seems to be that I shouldn't question the manager's tactics, because he knows better, without telling me which part of what I'm saying is incorrect. That's the equivalent of saying "you're a fucking tactic", and belting me round the lug (which would be a fair response)! You're not really engaging with the debate, but shutting it down. I'm being very balanced in my criticism and have highlighted the same issues since the beginning of the season, and also given huge credit when its due. 

In terms of experimentation, you're missing the point. He's experimenting, long term, with a specific player or players (he's tried Polvara and Clarkson there too), in order to try and force them into a role, and has had zero success after three months of consistent attempts. That's a lot different to trying something for a few weeks and then experimenting with a different strategy when it fails because players aren't adapting - that's the kind of experiment we want to see, and we did see and it worked. The problem was that he tried an experiment against County, it worked, and he ignored the results. That's just bad science! There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he'll eventually settle back on what works and we'll begin to get results again. In my opinion, it should have been fairly intuitive that we didn't have the midfield players to play the same as last season, but I completely understand him wanting to give it a go. However, that should have been a short experiment, abandoned for the betterment of the team when it was clear that it was asking too much of them (and having a knock on effect on others like Shinnie). We're probably 5 points (being generous here) off of where we should be because of Robson's long term persistence with a setup that hasn't worked in a single game yet. One point with his preferred setup is fairly damning I'd say.

[OrlandoDon]

I am engaging in debate - you’re saying players aren’t good enough in roles, I responded with opinion. I’m saying give them time because they are new or being given new roles with very little practice and alongside new players. Playing a team sport in a new role alongside new players and potentially in a new formation is a little more challenging than doing a DIY project. (And yea, I know, you can get complicated DIY) It’s complex teamwork involving knowledge of team tactics, team mates, habits, abilities etc…….plus you have to factor in opponents.
you’re saying it’s 3 months of consistent attempts. It has not been. We’ve had this squad for just over a month. Rama left just over 2 months ago. It’s still all very raw and very new. It may seem like it’s 3 months because we’ve played quite a lot of games in a short time. But that has also meant very limited legit practice to work on formation and personnel.
what may work against Ross county may not work against rangers. Or st Johnstone. Or it may work, we’ll never know right now. But I don’t think changing formation and personnel at the same time regularly is the right approach, there has to be some form of consistency, now he’s trying to find the right players. 
Where we do agree is that we don’t have the midfield of last year and that’s killing us. We have such a poorly constructed squad that I dont think we have a solution, hence Robson trying players in roles that they initially aren’t strong in. He’s hoping to grow someone into a role but you have to give someone a good few games to learn and see what they grasp and can do.

I’ve also said twice now, two huge players for us this season were meant to be duk and clarkson and both have struggled. That makes it even harder to build a team when your close to best two should be dropped. When you can’t build around and rely on these guys it clearly is another factor in all of this.

Edited October 10, 2023 by OrlandoDon

[RicoS321]

32 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

I am engaging in debate - you’re saying players aren’t good enough in roles, I responded with opinion. I’m saying give them time because they are new or being given new roles with very little practice and alongside new players. Playing a team sport in a new role alongside new players and potentially in a new formation is a little more challenging than doing a DIY project. (And yea, I know, you can get complicated DIY) It’s complex teamwork involving knowledge of team tactics, team mates, habits, abilities etc…….plus you have to factor in opponents.
you’re saying it’s 3 months of consistent attempts. It has not been. We’ve had this squad for just over a month. Rama left just over 2 months ago. It’s still all very raw and very new. It may seem like it’s 3 months because we’ve played quite a lot of games in a short time. But that has also meant very limited legit practice to work on formation and personnel.
what may work against Ross county may not work against rangers. Or st Johnstone. Or it may work, we’ll never know right now. But I don’t think changing formation and personnel at the same time regularly is the right approach, there has to be some form of consistency, now he’s trying to find the right players. 
Where we do agree is that we don’t have the midfield of last year and that’s killing us. We have such a poorly constructed squad that I dont think we have a solution, hence Robson trying players in roles that they initially aren’t strong in. He’s hoping to grow someone into a role but you have to give someone a good few games to learn and see what they grasp and can do.

I’ve also said twice now, two huge players for us this season were meant to be duk and clarkson and both have struggled. That makes it even harder to build a team when your close to best two should be dropped. When you can’t build around and rely on these guys it clearly is another factor in all of this.

Clarkson is struggling because of the formation. He wouldn't be if Robson would shift him to number ten, just as he did against County. What worked against County would almost certainly work against St Johnstone. We, correctly, changed formation against the Hun and Frankfurt. We absolutely do have a solution. It's called playing the players in positions that bring out their best attributes. This Clarkson or McGrath in number ten, Barron, Polvara and Shinnie sitting. It has a 100% record of working when we've tried it this season. At what point does one of McGrath, Polvara or Clarkson acquire the fitness, pace and stamina to play a box to box midfielder? They don't. Just as they wouldn't become 6ft4 defenders either. Time is not the issue here. Nor is lack of effort, they know exactly what they're being asked to do, they just can't do it. Robson said that he took Shinnie off at the weekend because he was concerned that he might get injured. I made that point more than a fortnight ago, that if Shinnie continued to be expected to do the work of 1.5 players then he'll get injured. The evidence is piled sky high that what I'm saying is correct. It's not because I'm some tactical genius either, I just happen to have eyes. I don't believe that you think that McGrath will turn into a different player. I don't even think Robson believes it, he's just being stubborn and dogmatic. The strange thing is that Robson watched this very scenario happening under Goodwin last season. Goodwin insisted on playing Ramadani in front of the defence, taking the ball from the centre backs and trying to play the Clarkson/Barron number six role. He persisted until he got binned, Robson spotted it within a couple of games and changed it. Goodwin also had a couple of games where he changed it and it worked, before reverting to type. Maybe it's a curse.

Edited October 10, 2023 by RicoS321