Killie v Dons

[Elgindon]

Interested to hear what Robson has to say about that. Got to recognise it has to change...

[OrlandoDon]

5 minutes ago, Elgindon said:

Interested to hear what Robson has to say about that. Got to recognise it has to change...

He will praise their efforts, say we were tired, and say the luck is not going our way. We were punished for mistakes and that’s not going our way right now. I’ve yet to hear him say a single thing that suggests he knows how to get us to play better.

[OrlandoDon]

11 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Actually, Gartenmann is, but Jensen isn't. Either you get Gartenmann over for long throws or, ideally, stop. Our players stand in exactly the same position for Jensen's throws, as Gartenmann's despite their being a very clear 5-10metre difference in range. Of course, none of that addresses the point that we've not scored from one yet this season, and I can't think of a single chance of note being drawn from one either. 

A difficult watch. McInnes is better than the three managers we've had since, basically. Destroyed by Kennedy and Watkins with a big hoofer in the middle. Worryingly we don't have a better winger in the squad than Kennedy and the evidence suggests Watkins would get in our team, and the big lad definitely would.

Agree what you say about mcinnes, but his time was up. We had plateaued and were even going backwards, and the players that had brought him success had moved on or were aging. it was time for a complete overhaul. 
no clue where we go from here to be honest. Robson was hired because no candidate inspired or stood out, but now we’re seeing the results of hiring an inexperienced manager, although I’ll now argue he’s not got the smarts to be a top manager based on what we’ve seen and heard this season.

[Elgindon]

1 minute ago, OrlandoDon said:

He will praise their efforts, say we were tired, and say the luck is not going our way. We were punished for mistakes and that’s not going our way right now. I’ve yet to hear him say a single thing that suggests he knows how to get us to play better.

Am like yourself,was prepared to give him time,allow him mistakes,assuming he was learning from them.He's stuck with the same formula,because results havent been bad enough to change it. Another couple of these type results soon will either force his hand,or Cormacks

[Panda]

Well I for one am shocked that our tactics of lumping it forward didn't produce a positive result, considering the enormous success it's had this season.

[Panda]

2 hours ago, Panda said:

Don't want to hear any excuses about tiredness today.

Robson post-match has just said he should have freshened things up today.

If that's all he thinks didn't work today then what hope is there?

[RicoS321]

5 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Agree what you say about mcinnes, but his time was up. We had plateaued and were even going backwards, and the players that had brought him success had moved on or were aging. it was time for a complete overhaul. 
no clue where we go from here to be honest. Robson was hired because no candidate inspired or stood out, but now we’re seeing the results of hiring an inexperienced manager, although I’ll now argue he’s not got the smarts to be a top manager based on what we’ve seen and heard this season.

I don't care whether we kept McInnes or not, just that we haven't managed to find a better manager, and we haven't learned anything since getting rid of him. Cormack chose not to help McInnes, instead isolating him and allowing things to go bad. He's also choosing not to help Robson now (Glass was incredibly hung out to dry, and Goodwin was just a strange situation), despite the very clear requirement to. I'm not talking about "backing him" either, which seems to be limited to giving someone a budget to spend in the notoriously volatile transfer market for a couple of windows and then being surprised when it fails. By backing, I mean the support within the club that is constantly challenging the manager and questioning his decisions, drawing evidence from the games themselves. Somebody that can remind him of prior errors and constantly play devil's advocate. Someone that's picking up on the errors he's making and providing resource, human or otherwise, to assist before and during games. He's a young manager, who we're expecting a lot from. We shouldn't be getting to the stage where we're considering his position (which they must be) without trying everything to bring out the best in him. We need someone to manage the manager basically. I don't believe that's happening. I fucking hope it isn't, otherwise it's really bad!

[BigAl]

42 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Actually, Gartenmann is, but Jensen isn't. Either you get Gartenmann over for long throws or, ideally, stop. Our players stand in exactly the same position for Jensen's throws, as Gartenmann's despite their being a very clear 5-10metre difference in range. 

Not once today

Woeful, uninspiring twenty four carot gold pish.

Anyone like to buy my Helsinki ticket and flights 

 

[OrlandoDon]

23 minutes ago, Panda said:

Robson post-match has just said he should have freshened things up today.

If that's all he thinks didn't work today then what hope is there?

Problem with that is the tactics are failing. Fresh or not, it’s brutal and mostly unsuccessful. The counter attacking style works for Europe, maybe Celtic, but every other game requires us to play football, not just defend and counter. The approach is failing, not just the players.

[Elgindon]

41 minutes ago, Elgindon said:

Interested to hear what Robson has to say about that. Got to recognise it has to change...

 

[OrlandoDon]

28 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I don't care whether we kept McInnes or not, just that we haven't managed to find a better manager, and we haven't learned anything since getting rid of him. Cormack chose not to help McInnes, instead isolating him and allowing things to go bad. He's also choosing not to help Robson now (Glass was incredibly hung out to dry, and Goodwin was just a strange situation), despite the very clear requirement to. I'm not talking about "backing him" either, which seems to be limited to giving someone a budget to spend in the notoriously volatile transfer market for a couple of windows and then being surprised when it fails. By backing, I mean the support within the club that is constantly challenging the manager and questioning his decisions, drawing evidence from the games themselves. Somebody that can remind him of prior errors and constantly play devil's advocate. Someone that's picking up on the errors he's making and providing resource, human or otherwise, to assist before and during games. He's a young manager, who we're expecting a lot from. We shouldn't be getting to the stage where we're considering his position (which they must be) without trying everything to bring out the best in him. We need someone to manage the manager basically. I don't believe that's happening. I fucking hope it isn't, otherwise it's really bad!

How do you know that though? You don’t know the inside conversations, meetings etc. You say cormack doesn’t help Robson, but you don’t know what happens internally. He’s certainly backed him financially, and with experienced staff. The manager still has to be given autonomy and space to an extent to do his job. In cormacks eyes he’s built a structure to support Robson. 

[RicoS321]

11 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

How do you know that though? You don’t know the inside conversations, meetings etc. You say cormack doesn’t help Robson, but you don’t know what happens internally. He’s certainly backed him financially, and with experienced staff. The manager still has to be given autonomy and space to an extent to do his job. In cormacks eyes he’s built a structure to support Robson. 

I'm going on the evidence of the last 3-4 managers. I don't know but, as I said, if he has given him internal backing then it's absolutely failed (or the manager is ignoring that resource and thus probably doesn't have a future). I think he's only got one experienced guy in Agnew, and I got the impression he was more a classic coach type akin to Tony Doc (another Robson basically), which gives the players a break from just having the manager shouting at them. Robson said in the summer (think it was when discussing Liam Fox's departure/replacement) that he doesn't want yes men at the club and wants to be challenged, but as far as I'm aware nobody has come in since then. The only time I've heard Cormack discussing backing for the manager was in relation to transfers. I don't consider that backing enough for a young (or any) manager. The manager has autonomy, but he needs to be held accountable and I don't believe that accountability has to end in the sack. If we don't have a structure in place that allows a feedback or challenge to the manager's decision making, then sack is the only option. That seems negligent. Especially when the manager has clear weaknesses. The weaknesses we're talking about here aren't the pot luck involved in the transfer market either. 

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

Hmm not sure Rico. There’s a scouting/recruitment system in place, a director of football, a cracking training ground and a pretty decent level on investment in the playing side. All Robson has to do is pick the right 11 players and form a gameplan, I mean how much backing does Cormack need to give him to do that? I don’t see how Robson’s backing from above is less than any previous manager has had from this or any previous board but of course we are not privy to all that happens behind the scenes.

Now seems like a fair amount of time and games have passed to judge Robson and to me, he’s just not cutting the mustard. I am not sure he actually knows his best 11, he has no particular style of play and looks poor on the tactical front. 

Even when we do get a good result, it seems a lot of the time, to be papering over the cracks. On Thursday night for example, despite the decent second half, we were absolutely abysmal in the first.

His post match interview today looked a bit like he had run out of answers. To suggest they could not play football because the pitch had been narrowed is a real disservice to Killie who were excellent and managed 19 attempts at goal. He would have gained a lot more respect by simply saying we were beaten by the better side and we’ll need to get back on the training ground tomorrow to improve before Wednesday.
 

 

[OrlandoDon]

I don’t go that detailed, you may be right or wrong, but I cannot speculate how our club is run and the conversations being had or not. Said this type of thing before. I can only speak to what I know and that’s coaching and performance. We’re being coached to play counter attack long ball, and it rarely works for us. We’re relying on duk in the majority of games and he’s been shit all season. What we see most games isn’t working and, as many have said, there does not appear to be a plan B.

cormack has backed the manager, and previous, to make the footballing decisions. It’s the model he backs, and they’ve all been giving full support from what I see. They (whoever makes the decisions) definitely failed on the transfer front and the imbalanced squad has certainly let to many of our troubles.
glass, Goodwin, and Robson have all failed to date. I felt glass was the most educated of the three and one I’d be willing to give time, Goodwin and Robson so far just look like the typical footballer trying to make managerial decisions. I guess they need a director of football/coaching type of role to over see them??

said it since we punted glass, we need an experienced manager, domestic or foreign, to oversee our football. Robson is no different to Goodwin as far as we see, don’t see how we can expect a different result.

[Slim]

Biggest issue seems to be that we can’t replicate the work rate we had in midfield last season with Shinnie + Ramadani which in turn allowed Clarkson and Duk a bit more freedom. Only time we look like getting results is with 4 central midfielders and Miovski on his own up front but we’re reluctant to play that way against most of our league opponents presumably because of the optics of playing so defensively and the fact we bought 2 expensive strikers to supplement the 2 expensive strikers we already had. If we can get a proper Ramadani replacement lined up for January (fully aware these guys don’t necessarily grow on trees) I’d take grinding out 1-0 wins with a 4-5-1 formation for a couple of months. 

Overall though we seem obsessed with playing the high press and being quick on transition which is applicable in about 10% of our matches. When we have the ball, we’re far too static and predictable. The amount of times we waste an opportunity to put the opposition on the back foot by having the nearest player to the ball when it goes out of play take a quick throw in is absolutely criminal. I think we retain possession from no more than 25% of our throw ins. 

[OrlandoDon]

3 minutes ago, Slim said:

Biggest issue seems to be that we can’t replicate the work rate we had in midfield last season with Shinnie + Ramadani which in turn allowed Clarkson and Duk a bit more freedom. Only time we look like getting results is with 4 central midfielders and Miovski on his own up front but we’re reluctant to play that way against most of our league opponents presumably because of the optics of playing so defensively and the fact we bought 2 expensive strikers to supplement the 2 expensive strikers we already had. If we can get a proper Ramadani replacement lined up for January (fully aware these guys don’t necessarily grow on trees) I’d take grinding out 1-0 wins with a 4-5-1 formation for a couple of months. 

Overall though we seem obsessed with playing the high press and being quick on transition which is applicable in about 10% of our matches. When we have the ball, we’re far too static and predictable. The amount of times we waste an opportunity to put the opposition on the back foot by having the nearest player to the ball when it goes out of play take a quick throw in is absolutely criminal. I think we retain possession from no more than 25% of our throw ins. 

I haven’t seen the duk from last year in a long time. He struggles to beat people for pace this year from what I see. Saw that today, couldn’t beat the right back for pace.

[redordead]

I went out shopping at half time because I've seen this movie before.

I've said it before many times. The style of football was never good enough last season and we got very lucky with Duk and Roos in outrageous form during the run in.

I'd genuinely have backed glass for another window because the style of play was 100x better than now. We dominated games with a shit squad. ( granted we struggled to defend) If he'd had the cash Robson has had, I think he could've turned the corner.

Ramirez was twice the striker miovski is. We fucked him over and Vinny too and now can't get up the field. 

For me Robson has to beat hibs or he's gone by new year. We need a fundamental change to our style.

Problem is that we now have 1000 defenders in the squad on decent contracts.

[Slim]

I liked Ramirez but Miovski is a couple of tiers above him.

[dons8321]

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

I haven’t seen the duk from last year in a long time. He struggles to beat people for pace this year from what I see. Saw that today, couldn’t beat the right back for pace.

I hope I'm wrong but he's beginning to look like a 1 season wonder. 

[BigAl]

19 minutes ago, dons8321 said:

I hope I'm wrong but he's beginning to look like a 1 season wonder. 

With each passing week Duk is starting to look more and more like what he was when we signed him

A "B Team" Player.

[OrlandoDon]

1 hour ago, redordead said:

I went out shopping at half time because I've seen this movie before.

I've said it before many times. The style of football was never good enough last season and we got very lucky with Duk and Roos in outrageous form during the run in.

I'd genuinely have backed glass for another window because the style of play was 100x better than now. We dominated games with a shit squad. ( granted we struggled to defend) If he'd had the cash Robson has had, I think he could've turned the corner.

Ramirez was twice the striker miovski is. We fucked him over and Vinny too and now can't get up the field. 

For me Robson has to beat hibs or he's gone by new year. We need a fundamental change to our style.

Problem is that we now have 1000 defenders in the squad on decent contracts.

But do we?? Ruby and Jensen were signed, McDonald on a two year so expires at the end of next. Gartmann, or dadia, and Williams are loaners. Devlin right back and mcgarry/Mackenzie left back. I’d say try to keep gartmann as he can also play on the right, if at all possible.

Return the two loaners and that’s normal squad depth.

[RicoS321]

3 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

cormack has backed the manager, and previous, to make the footballing decisions. It’s the model he backs, and they’ve all been giving full support from what I see. They (whoever makes the decisions) definitely failed on the transfer front and the imbalanced squad has certainly let to many of our troubles.
glass, Goodwin, and Robson have all failed to date. I felt glass was the most educated of the three and one I’d be willing to give time, Goodwin and Robson so far just look like the typical footballer trying to make managerial decisions. I guess they need a director of football/coaching type of role to over see them??

That's the issue I was getting at. I don't think it is the model Cormack backs, hence getting rid of McInnes. As @wokinginashearerwonderland mentions, we've got all the building blocks in place, but for a system that involves a good director of football above an up and coming young coach (unlike Agnew, who is answerable to Robson). Robson and Glass were in their first roles, with Goodwin still relatively inexperienced. Cormack has always talked about succession planning and not ripping up everything and starting again each time we get a manager, which I agree with, but that means Gunn has a really important role and the evidence of the last three appointments (Gunn wasn't dof for all those) suggests that he's either not intimately involved in the football side (save for transfers perhaps), or he's not really helping. All three young managers have struggled with basic errors and repeated errors. McInnes had those, but we're usually borne out of pragmatism and caution and he got results.

I see no reason why we can't treat our managers like we do our players. Take on inexperienced guys with a view to building their reputation and experience and sell on. That's, de facto, what we're doing with the three Cormack appointments. By not providing them a complete platform though, we're effectively ruining their careers before they've started. Had Goodwin not, inexplicably, got the utd job he'd have been looking at a long spell in mid table championship. Glass is now walking in Memphis and Robson will be taking on Inverurie if he gets binned. That's not a record to be proud of. Whether any of them recognise it or not, they need help from above and to be continually challenged to really think about what they're doing and why. All three got stuck in a rut of doing the same thing week after week. Almost like they're paralysed in a state of indecision. 

The alternative is, of course, the experienced manager. That costs serious money and is limited to the guys that are available at the time of sacking/new appointment. Personally, I prefer the young manager with experienced help. Cormack seems to want the inexperienced manager without the help, which doesn't seem to be working. I think we're largely in agreement though.

[wee toon red]

40 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

That's the issue I was getting at. I don't think it is the model Cormack backs, hence getting rid of McInnes. As @wokinginashearerwonderland mentions, we've got all the building blocks in place, but for a system that involves a good director of football above an up and coming young coach (unlike Agnew, who is answerable to Robson). Robson and Glass were in their first roles, with Goodwin still relatively inexperienced. Cormack has always talked about succession planning and not ripping up everything and starting again each time we get a manager, which I agree with, but that means Gunn has a really important role and the evidence of the last three appointments (Gunn wasn't dof for all those) suggests that he's either not intimately involved in the football side (save for transfers perhaps), or he's not really helping. All three young managers have struggled with basic errors and repeated errors. McInnes had those, but we're usually borne out of pragmatism and caution and he got results.

I see no reason why we can't treat our managers like we do our players. Take on inexperienced guys with a view to building their reputation and experience and sell on. That's, de facto, what we're doing with the three Cormack appointments. By not providing them a complete platform though, we're effectively ruining their careers before they've started. Had Goodwin not, inexplicably, got the utd job he'd have been looking at a long spell in mid table championship. Glass is now walking in Memphis and Robson will be taking on Inverurie if he gets binned. That's not a record to be proud of. Whether any of them recognise it or not, they need help from above and to be continually challenged to really think about what they're doing and why. All three got stuck in a rut of doing the same thing week after week. Almost like they're paralysed in a state of indecision. 

The alternative is, of course, the experienced manager. That costs serious money and is limited to the guys that are available at the time of sacking/new appointment. Personally, I prefer the young manager with experienced help. Cormack seems to want the inexperienced manager without the help, which doesn't seem to be working. I think we're largely in agreement though.

I'd agree with your thinking in principle but if we can't find or afford a decent experienced manager, who are we getting to be the young guy's boss? Craigie Broon was the man for the job and probably did it with McInnes but who's kicking about like that now and - probably most importantly - does Cormack know where to find them?

[RicoS321]

10 hours ago, wee toon red said:

I'd agree with your thinking in principle but if we can't find or afford a decent experienced manager, who are we getting to be the young guy's boss? Craigie Broon was the man for the job and probably did it with McInnes but who's kicking about like that now and - probably most importantly - does Cormack know where to find them?

When I was talking affordability, it was with regard to the fact that you have to sign them and fire them, and then do the same 2 years later on repeat. A director of football only has responsibility for a few people and it would be a role that suits quite a lot of people. It doesn't have to be a former footballer or manager either, just someone who understands the game and is a deep enough thinker that they can prod the manager with the right questions to make them stop and think about what they're doing. Properly challenge them on strategy, formation, any square pegs and squad balance (before and after signings).

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

3 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

It doesn't have to be a former footballer or manager either, just someone who understands the game and is a deep enough thinker that they can prod the manager with the right questions to make them stop and think about what they're doing. Properly challenge them on strategy, formation, any square pegs and squad balance (before and after signings).

I know what you're getting at Rico but can you imagine the scenario if you had someone that had never played or managed questioning the manager's game plan/formation/tactics.  He'd be told to fuck off double quick.  I just think you need a strong experienced assistant manager which is maybe where Agnew falls down?