ECL - PAOK v Dons

[Jute]

1 minute ago, Kowalski said:

Yet again no point in VAR. That was a stonewall penalty. 

Looked like one to me but VAR is flawless. 

[Jute]

2-2 subs have been a disaster for us and great for them. Taking Barron off was mental. 

[wee toon red]

Fuck var and fuck football. What’s the point in any of it?

[DantheDon]

That was absolutely criminal. That's two European games in a row where crucial moments haven't even been looked at by VAR. That said we were our own downfall in the end. The goals we conceded were really poor. 

[Kowalski]

Robson on TNT Sports just said the ref came in and kicked his own dressing room door in after the game! 

[RicoS321]

Well that was as bad as the Hun debacle under Goodwin. A fucking embarrassment. What manager makes three subs and changes formation at 2-0 up? What coaching team doesn't haul aside and say "what the fuck, Barry? Calm down mate"? Clueless doesn't even cover it. I don't remember seeing the Dons make such acts of self sabotage like tonight's and the prior Hun game. I remember us being consistently shite, and just losing, but this is something different. It's weird. 

Top marks for McGrath tonight, was excellent. Barron played well and should never have been off the pitch (maybe ten minutes or so later if he was really struggling). Miovski and Polvara were struggling, so bring on fresh legs within the same system in place. Keep it simple. Of course, within that you have the elephant in the room of our second striker. If the other two aren't overtaking him by now then they shouldn't be here.

[Panda]

The last 20 minutes I was missing large chunks of it, so although saw the goals and what should have been a penalty, didn't see much else.

So someone explain to me, what did Robson's changes actually do, and why were they so shit (besides taking off Barron).

[Panda]

As for VAR, how can Fifa not see it's destroying football? They apparently didn't even check the penalty, yet they checked PAOK's.

The more it goes on the less enthused I am about football. That said, Aberdeen chucking it tonight wasn't all down to VAR.

Let's also not forget the terrible first half performance, which consisted of two passes then a punt up the park every time we had possession.

I've, bizarrely, been at all three of Celtic's Champions League games this season. I'd give you everything I have to get Scales back. I apologise for ever saying he was average (that said, he never reached those levels at Aberdeen).

[RicoS321]

3 minutes ago, Panda said:

The last 20 minutes I was missing large chunks of it, so although saw the goals and what should have been a penalty, didn't see much else.

So someone explain to me, what did Robson's changes actually do, and why were they so shit (besides taking off Barron).

It was like throwing a bomb in the middle of the pitch, or taking each Dons player aside and telling them that their children have been kidnapped, or parents have died. They made a triple sub* because they needed to shake their team out of the position they were in. We needed calmness, simplicity and leadership. McGrath and McKenzie had an understanding that was working, so he shifted McKenzie further forward and put Hayes on the wing. Hayes should have been on doing exactly as Polvara was doing but with more energy. Duk should have been told to do exactly as Miovski was doing, or take on Sokler if Duk can't manage it (and I don't think he can play the lone striker, his movement is pish). We completely lost all sense of positioning and shape in that period, as you'd expect. Obviously Rubezic has to take a huge portion of the blame, but when you've got a guy like that at the back then all the more reason to keep things simple. It's a real shame, I don't think Robson has the slightest clue how to make tactical changes in games. He needs help. He needed somebody to veto that pish tonight. It was him that lost us that the game, not the ref (who was again worse than anything we see in Scotland) and not Rubezic or Hayes.

*I genuinely believe that Robson based his triple sub on their triple sub. They've done one, we'd better do one. It was that inexplicable and ridiculous. 

[RicoS321]

11 minutes ago, Panda said:

As for VAR, how can Fifa not see it's destroying football? They apparently didn't even check the penalty, yet they checked PAOK's.

The more it goes on the less enthused I am about football. That said, Aberdeen chucking it tonight wasn't all down to VAR.

Let's also not forget the terrible first half performance, which consisted of two passes then a punt up the park every time we had possession.

I've, bizarrely, been at all three of Celtic's Champions League games this season. I'd give you everything I have to get Scales back. I apologise for ever saying he was average (that said, he never reached those levels at Aberdeen).

Who said they didn't check the penalty? Sounds like bollocks to me. They check everything. They might not have immediately stopped play, but they will have checked it. Regardless, you're only highlighting what everyone (including you I'm sure) said prior to VAR coming in , that you can't define what a clear and obvious error is, so it simply moves the point of controversy. It should be consigned to the bin, it doesn't work and has never worked in any football setting at any point. The evidence was in way before we deployed it in Scotland.

As for Scales, I think it was clear that he was turning into a great player for us. As soon as he learned to be aggressive in the challenge (when Robson came in) it was like night and day. The club has to decide whether we continue to loan players without an agreement for purchase from anyone really (Gartenmann will be a big loss if he leaves), but specifically the Tims. It leaves an extremely bitter taste, and the benefit is almost all theirs. I thought Jensen was poor tonight, but he's been okay so far and I'd have taken a year of someone at his level ahead of developing Scales.

[DantheDon]

I do hope that privately Robson has the introspection to realise he fucked up tonight. Nothing wrong with making changes but bringing 3 subs on at once was baffling. If he spreads them out 1 by 1 it also has the advantage of slowing the game down which is what you want when 2 goals to the good. 

[DantheDon]

3 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Who said they didn't check the penalty? Sounds like bollocks to me. They check everything. They might not have immediately stopped play, but they will have checked it. Regardless, you're only highlighting what everyone (including you I'm sure) said prior to VAR coming in , that you can't define what a clear and obvious error is, so it simply moves the point of controversy. It should be consigned to the bin, it doesn't work and has never worked in any football setting at any point. The evidence was in way before we deployed it in Scotland.

It didn't seem as though it was checked. Usually when the play has stopped which it had the ref will stop the game for a moment to allow the VAR check to happen. It's what happened for the PAOK check. The BBC team were also reporting that they understood it had not been checked. 

[Panda]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

Who said they didn't check the penalty?

One of the BBC reporters who was at the game asked and was told they didn't check it. 

I believe him. And so should you. The BBC would never lie about such important matters.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

Edited October 27, 2023 by Panda

[BigAl]

2.12 AM

Just in the door

Fecking Nightmare

More later today.

[manc_don]

WTAF?!? Went into a meeting at 2-2, how the fuck did we lose that?!?

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

The substitutions certainly changed the game, we were in the ascendancy at that point and if there was going to be a third goal we looked the most likely to be scoring it.  The modern day phenomenon of taking your players off with 20 minutes left is sometimes just plain stupid.  The three guys that came off are 21, 23, and 24 years old.  They have just had a fortnight off while Scotland played, came back and had their next game postponed so we played no games for two and a half weeks.  I mean, why can't they last 90 minutes?  There was absolutely no reason to change the game.

The players have also got to just calm down a bit out there.  Two of those PAOK goals happened through sheer panic.

On the plus side, don't know what Robson said at half time but we were getting murdered in that first half and came out like a different team in the second half so he deserves a bit of credit there.  Wee Barron is making a big difference to the team and Clarkson must be wondering how on earth he is going to get his place back.

 

[RicoS321]

7 hours ago, Panda said:

One of the BBC reporters who was at the game asked and was told they didn't check it. 

I believe him. And so should you. The BBC would never lie about such important matters.

Language is probably key here though. We're told, and I've no reason to believe otherwise, that they check everything. In most cases it'll be a quick replay (there was easily time for this before the ball was back in play)before they put up the official "VAR check under way" pish. Do they just mean that they didn't reach the threshold to stop the game, and announce a check? They can obviously continue to check after the game has continued too and bring it back, if there has been no communication with the ref at that point. For the incident itself, it looked like one that could have gone either way and certainly not a clear and obvious error. As VAR removes any context whatsoever, I could easily watch the incident back with the brief: "can you find a penalty here?" and decide it's a pen of course, but then that's why VAR is such an abject failure. I thought in real time that Rubezic's was a foul (couldn't tell if it was in the box, but the ref never gave anything anyway), but again it wasn't a clear and obvious error. Their team surrounded the ref asking him to check VAR, which suggests that there is merit in doing that (further ruining the game) if we believe that checking can be upgraded from a cursory glance by doing so.

 

45 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

The players have also got to just calm down a bit out there.  Two of those PAOK goals happened through sheer panic.

On the plus side, don't know what Robson said at half time but we were getting murdered in that first half and came out like a different team in the second half so he deserves a bit of credit there

Yep, it's the two sides of the Robson coin. He's clearly a good coach and motivator, but tactically poor (or certainly within games when he doesn't have the luxury of preparation). The club should be addressing this as quickly as possible as it's clear he needs help. We had a tactics guy when Glass was here, with debatable success, we should be offering that again or changing that person if someone is already performing that role. The players didn't get the chance to calm down, it's like spending ten minutes tickling a child and then berating them for being too excited. The substitutions and system change are exactly what caused the lack of composure, with too much changed in one swoop. McKenzie was rattled and Hayes didn't know what he was supposed to be doing. Duk was just the wrong guy for the job (although Miovski was struggling and wasn't tracking), and Clarkson was coming on for one of our best performers on the night in a position that he's worse (than Barron) in.

[Elgindon]

1 hour ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

The substitutions certainly changed the game, we were in the ascendancy at that point and if there was going to be a third goal we looked the most likely to be scoring it.  The modern day phenomenon of taking your players off with 20 minutes left is sometimes just plain stupid.  The three guys that came off are 21, 23, and 24 years old.  They have just had a fortnight off while Scotland played, came back and had their next game postponed so we played no games for two and a half weeks.  I mean, why can't they last 90 minutes?  There was absolutely no reason to change the game.

The players have also got to just calm down a bit out there.  Two of those PAOK goals happened through sheer panic.

On the plus side, don't know what Robson said at half time but we were getting murdered in that first half and came out like a different team in the second half so he deserves a bit of credit there.  Wee Barron is making a big difference to the team and Clarkson must be wondering how on earth he is going to get his place back.

 

Been suggested that the 3 coming off were showing signs of cramp which I find hard to believe

Highlights here,not much said about the McKenzie penalty.The way we give away the 3 goals though..... 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Elgindon

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, Elgindon said:

Been suggested that the 3 coming off were showing signs of cramp which I find hard to believe

Highlights here,not much said about the McKenzie penalty.The way we give away the 3 goals though..... 

 

I don't believe the cramp, certainly not Barron who had shown no signs of slowing down. The other two should have been unimportant to the game had we simply just replaced like for like without fucking about with formations.

Those highlights certainly show VAR for the inept shite it is. McKenzie's one certainly looks like a penalty in the replay, but it's not a terrible decision by the referee not to give it. Their one is a nonsense. The referee is a couple of yards away from the offence, he sees it completely, and in context, and doesn't give a free-kick nor wave play on. VAR comes in with the question: "can you see a penalty here", and we get one. Football is a contact sport, where people stand on each others feet all the time. Not every touch is a foul (arguably the same with McKenzie), and referees and players know this instinctively when viewed in context. By removing context we get this charade of a game.

[Panda]

3 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

Language is probably key here though. We're told, and I've no reason to believe otherwise, that they check everything. In most cases it'll be a quick replay (there was easily time for this before the ball was back in play)before they put up the official "VAR check under way" pish.

As far as I'm aware, someone who was listening in to the VAR said it wasn't checked. There was no dialogue to suggest they were even looking at a replay.

[Slim]

We need to be smarter as a team, play up the histrionics, demand VAR reviews. There’s evidently a way to influence what gets reviewed and what doesn’t in some cases, we will always be at a disadvantage if our opponents are wise to this and we’re not. There’s no reward for dignity unfortunately.

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

1 hour ago, Panda said:

As far as I'm aware, someone who was listening in to the VAR said it wasn't checked. There was no dialogue to suggest they were even looking at a replay.

I don't know what the fuss it about on the McKenzie one.  Even with the red tinted specs on that was never worthy of a penalty in my opinion, the guy just used his strength to ease McKenzie out of the way. It was actually very good defending.

[Panda]

44 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

I don't know what the fuss it about on the McKenzie one.  Even with the red tinted specs on that was never worthy of a penalty in my opinion, the guy just used his strength to ease McKenzie out of the way. It was actually very good defending.

He kicks his leg out of the way. It's a granitewall penalty.

another angle: 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Panda

[BigAl]

Left home at 3.10pm got into ground eleven minutes after kick off

Fucking awful journey

M77 blocked both ways with an accident, Kingston Bridge tailed back, biblical rain by the time at Perth, Friarton Bridge tailback for roadworks, further tailback and roadworks between Perth and Dundee, A90 north of Dundee absolutely awash with flooding. The only positive was the fact I missed all the traffic getting to the ground and somehow miraculously got a parking space at the medical centre.

Heading home more biblical rain, A90 closed at Forfar and rain, rain and more rain until south of Dunblane when things improved and made it home just after 2am. A fucking eleven hour trip 

Thought with twenty to go it was all going to be worth it but said to my younger son didn't like the triple substitution by Robson and thought it was ill advised.

Not really much more to say that others haven't already said.

After the trials and tribulations of returning from Frankfurt, think after Helisinki I'll be publishing my experiences of season 2023/24 European Conference League  

[Panda]

Robson said in his post-match presser that Miovski and Barron were struggling and had to come off, and Polvara had cramp, and they actually wanted to make the subs earlier but the fourth official wouldn't let them.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Panda