Aberdeen v Motherwell

[manc_don]

5 minutes ago, OxfordDon said:

Get Morris off the park now.

Done

[manc_don]

Post VAR check, DUK goal stands. Instant impact.

[manc_don]

Gartenmann with the second. 

[redordead]

Fucking hell, that was certainly entertaining. There's more goals in this, let's hope the odd one is in our favour.

[OrlandoDon]

Not watching. Started 3-5-2 before going the 4-2-3-1?? Or a normal 4-4-2??

[wee toon red]

3-3, Duk again. 40 mins to go.

[Slim]

What’s the point in VAR if that’s upheld as offside? Clearly onside.

[manc_don]

Didn't watch any of it, but great to see Duk in amongst it again. We need the likes of him, midfield and defence starting to contribute in goals. Cannot rely on Miovski alone. Shite result though. Just less shite than what it appeared it would be after 25 mins. Helluva call by Warnock and it paid off.

[OrlandoDon]

So what exactly is the offside rule? If it’s unclear advantage to the attacker? Or it has to be a clear and obvious error to change a decision. Didn’t see it but commentary said it was a good goal??!!

[Slim]

If the attacker is in line with the defender it’s onside is my understanding. Even the lines drawn on the screen didn’t seem to match up because both lines would have ended up on top of each other. The line from the defender’s shoulder seemed to line up with Miovski’s cross-field line.

[Slim]

Shouldn’t the line be drawn from the defender’s elbow?

Miovski’s dotted line doesn’t seem to intersect properly with his solid line.

Is this supposed to be like Hawkeye in tennis or is it just some Hun in a cupboard with some crayons?

[Slim]

This is the one I mentioned initially, the dotted lines are intersecting with the solid lines of the wrong colour. Miovski’s dotted line seems to curve at the bottom. 

[OrlandoDon]

5 minutes ago, Slim said:

Shouldn’t the line be drawn from the defender’s elbow?

Miovski’s dotted line doesn’t seem to intersect properly with his solid line.

Is this supposed to be like Hawkeye in tennis or is it just some Hun in a cupboard with some crayons?

Thing is, can you honestly tell where the defenders elbow is pointing? All depends on the angle you view from. It’s a farce, because I always thought clear and obvious were specific terms in the rule?

regardless, fucking hate var, every game it’s a fucking issue.

[RicoS321]

Well that was a interesting game, that VAR did its best to suck all life out of. Seriously though, who the fuck is working at our club and not having a word with Warnock before that pish? More importantly, has he done zero research between arriving here and today? I heard part of his interview after the bonnyrigg game where he praised Morris' workrate, and I knew straight away he'd be starting him tonight. What I didn't expect was him playing fucking wing back. I think he's a fucking awful player, but for a manager to hang him out to dry like that is unforgivable, and to have nobody at the club with the balls to tell Warnock he was making a massive fucking mistake just reeks. Just shows you that his "95% man management" is utter horse shite, as there wasn't five percent difference before and after formation changes, and you'd need 400% man management in order to justify including Morris on the bench. Anyway, I was surprised by the number of folk having a direct go at Warnock (it was deserved, I'm just surprised that so many folk were placing the blame at his door so early in his stint). He made the obvious changes though, deciding that playing every fucking player out of position was probably not best and reverting back to what has worked - and it did, for the most part. People might say that it was good management to make changes early in the game, but the crowd were literally screaming at him and basically booing Morris' every touch. He had absolutely no choice, and actually took too long to make the subs. 

They were fucking awful and once we started playing we completely dominated and they spent the entire second half time wasting, with a weak as fuck ref watching on. Ten minutes of VARing about was just soul destroying. It's got to go. 

Great to see Duk get a couple, but he must be so frustrating to play with. He offered zero out ball to MacKenzie all night and dicks about with it so often in places where if he loses it, we're fucked. He probably gets man of the match though, just for coming on for Morris. One further notable point is that everything was very direct again. That could have been because we were chasing it, but even at 3-3 we were lumping every free kick in from every angle and the long throw was in constant use. It's not going to be pretty under Warnock that's for sure.

[RicoS321]

9 minutes ago, Slim said:

Shouldn’t the line be drawn from the defender’s elbow?

Obviously, the correct answer is "who gives a fuck?" but is not the same as the rule for the attacker: It has to be a part of the body that you can play the ball with? The defender can't defend the ball with his elbow. Or some shite. Offside is now a rule for childish dickheads anyway, it no longer exists as a functional part of the game of football, it's actually an independent game in and of itself, just like handball.

[OrlandoDon]

In all fairness, tell var to fuck off and it’s 4-4. Without var their 4th stands. Then again, miovski’s goal was initially called offside.

There are still fouls, re the pull on gartenmann at the corner in the cup semi for example, that don’t get given. Var isn’t clearing up issues, it’s not reviewing them all, so the inconsistency and missed or wrong calls still exist. But we now, as I’ve said before, get var goals where they wouldn’t exist without var. Var is not helping at all and making things worse, including enjoyment. Can anyone say it’s made the game better?? How can you honestly and subjectively back it?

[OrlandoDon]

37 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Well that was a interesting game, that VAR did its best to suck all life out of. Seriously though, who the fuck is working at our club and not having a word with Warnock before that pish? More importantly, has he done zero research between arriving here and today? I heard part of his interview after the bonnyrigg game where he praised Morris' workrate, and I knew straight away he'd be starting him tonight. What I didn't expect was him playing fucking wing back. I think he's a fucking awful player, but for a manager to hang him out to dry like that is unforgivable, and to have nobody at the club with the balls to tell Warnock he was making a massive fucking mistake just reeks. Just shows you that his "95% man management" is utter horse shite, as there wasn't five percent difference before and after formation changes, and you'd need 400% man management in order to justify including Morris on the bench. Anyway, I was surprised by the number of folk having a direct go at Warnock (it was deserved, I'm just surprised that so many folk were placing the blame at his door so early in his stint). He made the obvious changes though, deciding that playing every fucking player out of position was probably not best and reverting back to what has worked - and it did, for the most part. People might say that it was good management to make changes early in the game, but the crowd were literally screaming at him and basically booing Morris' every touch. He had absolutely no choice, and actually took too long to make the subs. 

They were fucking awful and once we started playing we completely dominated and they spent the entire second half time wasting, with a weak as fuck ref watching on. Ten minutes of VARing about was just soul destroying. It's got to go. 

Great to see Duk get a couple, but he must be so frustrating to play with. He offered zero out ball to MacKenzie all night and dicks about with it so often in places where if he loses it, we're fucked. He probably gets man of the match though, just for coming on for Morris. One further notable point is that everything was very direct again. That could have been because we were chasing it, but even at 3-3 we were lumping every free kick in from every angle and the long throw was in constant use. It's not going to be pretty under Warnock that's for sure.

While I agree with the majority of what you say, you can’t hire a manager then tell him he can’t play players because they are shit. Or hire him and say he can’t play certain players in positions, or can’t play certain formations. Especially a guy with the experience of warnock. You have to give him professional respect and some sort of autonomy. Unless it’s a contract issue and a player is playing with the u18s or the likes (like McKenna at one point w forest), if the player is fit and training you kinda have to let the guy you hired to do the job do the job. He obviously saw things in training hence the lineup. Can you see leven, a young guy who has never been a manager, tell him what to do? Or Gunn? If you hire a manager you have to let him pick the side and formation. 
we clearly have holes in the squad so he improvised, it didn’t come off. I can’t fault him for that. At least he didn’t wait until the last 10 mins to make changes. I will fault him for the long ball shit, that doomed Robson and that’s something I hope we see less and less. The problem is obviously that every point counts, and it’s two more lost and warnock doesn’t have much time to experiment or learn from games.
I’ve written off the season, think we’ll be lucky to make top 6. Don’t see us relegated and just want us to get whatever club assessment done and to get a new guy in. Our squad is really poor, roll on the summer. 

[Panda]

1 hour ago, manc_don said:

Helluva call by Warnock and it paid off.

I see what you're saying, and I guess fair play for not stubbornly sticking with his decision beyond 29 minutes which is what I would have expected Robson to do.

But, it was an idiotic line-up, and Robson for his faults wouldn't set up that badly. One centre back, at least four players playing out of positions leaving us really vulnerable defensively. It's cost us two points and we're fortunate to get the one we did. 

1 hour ago, Slim said:

Shouldn’t the line be drawn from the defender’s elbow?

 

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

Thing is, can you honestly tell where the defenders elbow is pointing? 

An elbow can't be offside, so presumably it can't play someone onside either.

Hands and arms aren't counted offside, so the line isn't drawn from his elbow, it's being drawn from his hip.

The angle is a bit misleading, but if it was straightened up, Miovski's head is probably offside.

It's still a ridiculous decision, but more due to the laws of the game determining inches like that are offside.

59 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

 One further notable point is that everything was very direct again. That could have been because we were chasing it, but even at 3-3 we were lumping every free kick in from every angle and the long throw was in constant use. It's not going to be pretty under Warnock that's for sure.

I don't think we have the players to play how he wants to play either. 

He was stressing before the game about Motherwell being more physical than us. So he knows his "muck and nettles" way of playing is going to be difficult. 

48 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

In all fairness, tell var to fuck off and it’s 4-4. Without var their 4th stands. Then again, miovski’s goal was initially called offside.

Nah I thought that was the correct decision. Player pushes McGrath who then knocks over Roos. 

But then I'm biased.

[SeeBass]

I'm still wide awake at nearly 3am Thursday in utter disbelief we actually put these two bets on!!  That's (11/2) Last Goal and (14/1) Two Or More!!

Thing is would Mr Luis Lopes Duk have got sixty minutes off the bench had we not been 3-0 down after 27 minutes?  Probably not but despite falling out of love with my team last four or five years I continue to back them with selections like these.

At final whistle not that I'm religious or anything but we thanked God out loud for not messing up my Valentine's Day with at least a stirring comeback that won me £185.50 profit as we also did £9 Bojan Miovski First Goal (4/1) and £9 Bojan Miovski Two Or More Goals (8/1).

 

If I'm honest Valentine's Day ain't great for me nowadays with it being the date my Mam was diagnosed with her primary Lung secondary Brain cancer eleven years ago before dying 55 days later.

 

Sorry for going on but I wonder whether she too had a hand in taking my mind off such a hard day with Duk having won me this money last night.

 

I firmly believe had she still been alive we'd have had so many great conversations about '911 Emergency Services' as I call our enigmatic duo. 

[RicoS321]

7 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

While I agree with the majority of what you say, you can’t hire a manager then tell him he can’t play players because they are shit. Or hire him and say he can’t play certain players in positions, or can’t play certain formations. Especially a guy with the experience of warnock. You have to give him professional respect and some sort of autonomy. Unless it’s a contract issue and a player is playing with the u18s or the likes (like McKenna at one point w forest), if the player is fit and training you kinda have to let the guy you hired to do the job do the job. He obviously saw things in training hence the lineup. Can you see leven, a young guy who has never been a manager, tell him what to do? Or Gunn? If you hire a manager you have to let him pick the side and formation. 
we clearly have holes in the squad so he improvised, it didn’t come off. I can’t fault him for that. At least he didn’t wait until the last 10 mins to make changes. I will fault him for the long ball shit, that doomed Robson and that’s something I hope we see less and less. The problem is obviously that every point counts, and it’s two more lost and warnock doesn’t have much time to experiment or learn from games.
I’ve written off the season, think we’ll be lucky to make top 6. Don’t see us relegated and just want us to get whatever club assessment done and to get a new guy in. Our squad is really poor, roll on the summer. 

I agree, you can't force a manager not to pick players, but there are only two possible scenarios here. The first is that Warnock hasn't done any homework on the Dons at all, or he'd have known that his setup of players out of position (Morris massively, MacKenzie also and I'd argue Devlin) wouldn't work. That lineup was a sign of someone absolutely ignorant to our entire season, there is no other explanation. He strikes me as the type that would be obnoxious enough to suggest that everything up until now was the other guy's failings, and nothing to be learned. If he has done his homework, then he's just not very good at reading games of football. The second is that Warnock hasn't done his homework, because he's not been in the door long enough (or he doesn't feel it's a worthwhile exercise like above). In that case, it takes a spectacularly ignorant human not to ask the people around you at the club what has worked and failed and exactly why. My opinion is that he'll have asked Leven for a good overview of what works. He's either not listened to any of that and done his own thing, or Leven and others at the club are absolutely clueless, or frightened to give an opinion. Either way, it lacked professionalism and they certainly got the message from the fans last night. 

I think this sums up what my issue was with signing Warnock until the end of season. He's here for a really short time with zero experience of the game. Nobody who has been watching Scottish football this season would have made those errors last night. Similarly @tlg1903's point about Warnock being here on a jolly absolutely rang true. He's clearly either not done the work required, or deferred that authority to someone else until he gets up to speed. It was a completely unprofessional performance. 

There is absolutely no credit due for the early changes either (Robson wouldn't have had us three down, we'd have to go back to Goodwin versus Hibs for anything like last night). It maybe wasn't clear on red TV, but the hostility at the ground was immense (there was fighting in the RDS, but that was down to a Motherwell fan in corporate). It was probably the most toxic I've seen it since losing to the Hun in that game under Goodwin. The fourth goal was coming too, and I think Morris would have subbed himself, given how frightened he looked when he accidentally got the ball once after coming out of hiding from behind his marker. There was literally no choice but make a sub. It did bring a great light hearted moment though. I thought it was fairly obvious we were making a double change, but clearly most of the ground were unaware, so when the board went up with Polvara's number and not Morris' the crowd went mental thinking he might be staying on. I don't know how they choose the order when making a double sub (maybe it was the fourth official having a laugh), but they should perhaps take note for future to make sure that you always take the horrendously shite player off first. I'm certain a couple of heart attacks could be avoided in future.

 

[RicoS321]

7 hours ago, Panda said:

Nah I thought that was the correct decision. Player pushes McGrath who then knocks over Roos. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ref gave their goal in real time? The linesman have Miovski offside in real time too, and so we'd have lost 3-4 if VAR hadn't been there.

I'd have taken the loss over the soul destroying ten minutes additional time. For our third goal (might have been our second), the VAR display actually said that they were checking for both a foul and offside. Nobody knew if that was a mistake by the operator, or what was happening.

[manc_don]

Good finishes for all three of ours goals, although was the second duk goal deflected in? The watched on my phone so couldn’t quite tell. Still, looked like he had a bit more about him than he has all season. 
 

sounds like I need to retract the kudos I gave for him actually changing it in the first. I mean, I didn’t understand the tactics in the first place, but it must have been something special to hear such toxicity? 

[tlg1903]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

I agree, you can't force a manager not to pick players, but there are only two possible scenarios here. The first is that Warnock hasn't done any homework on the Dons at all, or he'd have known that his setup of players out of position (Morris massively, MacKenzie also and I'd argue Devlin) wouldn't work. That lineup was a sign of someone absolutely ignorant to our entire season, there is no other explanation. He strikes me as the type that would be obnoxious enough to suggest that everything up until now was the other guy's failings, and nothing to be learned. If he has done his homework, then he's just not very good at reading games of football. The second is that Warnock hasn't done his homework, because he's not been in the door long enough (or he doesn't feel it's a worthwhile exercise like above). In that case, it takes a spectacularly ignorant human not to ask the people around you at the club what has worked and failed and exactly why. My opinion is that he'll have asked Leven for a good overview of what works. He's either not listened to any of that and done his own thing, or Leven and others at the club are absolutely clueless, or frightened to give an opinion. Either way, it lacked professionalism and they certainly got the message from the fans last night. 

I think this sums up what my issue was with signing Warnock until the end of season. He's here for a really short time with zero experience of the game. Nobody who has been watching Scottish football this season would have made those errors last night. Similarly @tlg1903's point about Warnock being here on a jolly absolutely rang true. He's clearly either not done the work required, or deferred that authority to someone else until he gets up to speed. It was a completely unprofessional performance. 

There is absolutely no credit due for the early changes either (Robson wouldn't have had us three down, we'd have to go back to Goodwin versus Hibs for anything like last night). It maybe wasn't clear on red TV, but the hostility at the ground was immense (there was fighting in the RDS, but that was down to a Motherwell fan in corporate). It was probably the most toxic I've seen it since losing to the Hun in that game under Goodwin. The fourth goal was coming too, and I think Morris would have subbed himself, given how frightened he looked when he accidentally got the ball once after coming out of hiding from behind his marker. There was literally no choice but make a sub. It did bring a great light hearted moment though. I thought it was fairly obvious we were making a double change, but clearly most of the ground were unaware, so when the board went up with Polvara's number and not Morris' the crowd went mental thinking he might be staying on. I don't know how they choose the order when making a double sub (maybe it was the fourth official having a laugh), but they should perhaps take note for future to make sure that you always take the horrendously shite player off first. I'm certain a couple of heart attacks could be avoided in future.

 

Aye well said.  When I saw the starting line up my head was in my hands.  I honestly can't believe the credit warnock is getting for making changes when the lineup he picked was so utterly insane.  A change to a back 3 when said back 3 will involve 2 fb's at cb whilst leaving an actual cb on the bench beggars belief.  To put mcgrath to lwb even more so.  He should be getting zero credit, quite the opposite actually, he had to waste two subs to try and reclaim a 3 goal deficit that was entirely his fault.  I don't think it's unfair to say would have won that game comfortably if he hadn't gone all 'experimental. Sadly, going by social media, there are far too many sycophants seal clapping the comeback.  I weep for humanity sometimes, I really do. 

 

The only positive is Duk is looking more like himself but I still think the season is over.  We aint getting into Europe with this fud in charge and as for the cup I can't help but fancy Killie to stuff us in the next round...

[RicoS321]

52 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

Aye well said.  When I saw the starting line up my head was in my hands.  I honestly can't believe the credit warnock is getting for making changes when the lineup he picked was so utterly insane.  A change to a back 3 when said back 3 will involve 2 fb's at cb whilst leaving an actual cb on the bench beggars belief.  To put mcgrath to lwb even more so.  He should be getting zero credit, quite the opposite actually, he had to waste two subs to try and reclaim a 3 goal deficit that was entirely his fault.  I don't think it's unfair to say would have won that game comfortably if he hadn't gone all 'experimental. Sadly, going by social media, there are far too many sycophants seal clapping the comeback.  I weep for humanity sometimes, I really do. 

You were doing well until that last bit! I don't think it's sycophantic to be wanting the manager to do well and want to "give him a chance". However, I do think the phrase "you've got to give him a chance" is ridiculously overused in lieu of actual intelligent, worthwhile criticism and is often quite damaging (to adopt a little hyperbole!). He's an experienced manager who has just made a ridiculous error that even a young manager in his first role wouldn't make (compare with Leven's only game in charge, for example). He was slow to rectify it, not even attempting to reshuffle before the subs, and was lucky not to be four down (the one Roos tipped onto post/bar could have gone anywhere). Experience means being held to a higher standard, and if you can't be strongly critical of a guy, when merited, then you add nothing. If anything, he got incredibly lucky that Duk scored with his second touch, as had we been held for a further ten minutes, we'd have gone back into our shell. 

In Warnock's defence, I'm not sure we are/were getting Europe this season anyway, nor a cup win, I don't think we're nearly good enough as a squad. I don't think he'll have been worth the extra money between now and summer ahead of someone like Leven. We actually weren't struggling with man management under Robson, it was tactical ineptitude. If that tactical ineptitude is going to continue, I don't believe that the minor uplift in man management is going to be enough. 

[OrlandoDon]

Last night was an interesting one. As someone who has coached for 30 years, and admittedly not at a professional level, you always believe when you take on a team you can benefit and teach players. Players get a clean slate and have the opportunity to prove themselves. I have to think that warnock believes he can get the best out of our players and while something may not have worked for a rookie manager like Robson, a seasoned pro like warnock believes he can do better. 
I think it showed last night that warnock doesn’t really know our players and obviously how can he really? He’s learning quickly that morris is shite for example. The reality is that he doesn’t have the time to experiment or we are sucked into a relegation battle and I suppose he has to trust the judgment of leven/Gunn who can tell him when and why we’ve been piss this season. It really is a crash course 4 month season for warnock and ever point matters.

have to assume that last night was the end of a back 3?