Jimmy claims he may quit after a cup win?

[Superstar Tradesman]

Yep, I think we'd win that.  And I also think you knew that too. 

 

I actually doubt we would but I don't think we'd be that far off as I'm certain Hibs, Hearts, United..... would also be on much the same points.

 

For example Hearts have won a cup, finished 2nd and had a few other trips into Europe so that's a few 3 pointers there to match ours.  Hibs have done well in the cup competitions over the years so they'll have raked up a few points that way.  My point was that the whole league is very close and teams can easily finish a few places down just because of bad luck like injuries, weather/fixture pile ups or refereeing decisions.

 

I honestly don't see anything in the non-O.F. teams that screams 'Third Force' and that's been indicated by no team being really any better off that another.

 

To say "we should be" this, that and the other is just stupid, there's just no logic to it.  The simple fact is we are no better and that will continue until the debt has gone.

[???]

With the capture of players like Severin, Jamie Smith, MacNamara and more recently Mark Kerr (who UTD did not want to lose) I think Aberdeen FC have demonstrated that they can attract players from a better pool than most other clubs in the league. So in capturing establised players we have shown we posses a competitive advantage in my mind.

 

Whilst I can see both sides of the argument, this argument here isn't necessarily valid as there are other teams in the league who have attracted players that we would take in a heartbeat.

[Ajja]

Whilst I can see both sides of the argument, this argument here isn't necessarily valid as there are other teams in the league who have attracted players that we would take in a heartbeat.

 

Granted, there are players who will go to other clubs rather than us but I would argue that we have seen more established quality players come to Pittodrie in recent years than any other club in the SPL outside of Hearts and the OF. Who are the players that when they signed for UTD, Hibs, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Falkirk, ICT......you genuinely thought 'thats a great signing I wish Aberdeen had been able to get him'. I can't put a list together that has any of those clubs with a list anything like the one we have.

 

 

[boboisared]

Granted, there are players who will go to other clubs rather than us but I would argue that we have seen more established quality players come to Pittodrie in recent years than any other club in the SPL outside of Hearts and the OF. Who are the players that when they signed for UTD, Hibs, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Falkirk, ICT......you genuinely thought 'thats a great signing I wish Aberdeen had been able to get him'. I can't put a list together that has any of those clubs with a list anything like the one we have.

 

 

All I can think of is McCormack and Lee Miller. And look where the latter ended up.

[???]

Granted, there are players who will go to other clubs rather than us but I would argue that we have seen more established quality players come to Pittodrie in recent years than any other club in the SPL outside of Hearts and the OF. Who are the players that when they signed for UTD, Hibs, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Falkirk, ICT......you genuinely thought 'thats a great signing I wish Aberdeen had been able to get him'. I can't put a list together that has any of those clubs with a list anything like the one we have.

 

When you say recent years, how far back are we going?  And why are Hearts being taken out of the equation?  We're surely talking about every team bar the Old Firm. 

[Ajja]

When you say recent years, how far back are we going?  And why are Hearts being taken out of the equation?  We're surely talking about every team bar the Old Firm. 

 

Lets try Calderwoods reign as that is the issue at play and do you really have to ask about Hearts ? Their budget has been more akin to that of the OF in recent times so I don't think the comparison is fair.

 

EDIT: Can we get the top trumps out next ?

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Lets try Calderwoods reign as that is the issue at play and do you really have to ask about Hearts ? Their budget has been more akin to that of the OF in recent times so I don't think the comparison is fair.

 

 

It is impossible to compare Hearts to anyone in the league.

 

Maybe with Lehman Bros or BCCCI.

[Ajja]

It is impossible to compare Hearts to anyone in the league.

 

Maybe with Lehman Bros or BCCCI.

 

 

Or Woolworths 

[Superstar Tradesman]

I think it's fair enough to include them when you add their debt into the equation.  ;D

[???]

Lets try Calderwoods reign as that is the issue at play and do you really have to ask about Hearts ? Their budget has been more akin to that of the OF in recent times so I don't think the comparison is fair.

 

EDIT: Can we get the top trumps out next ?

 

If we're talking specifically about a 'third force' outwith the Old Firm then Hearts should be included regardless of their so-called wealth. 

 

Also, there has been a number of players at other SPL teams who I may not have known a great deal about, but who've came in and done a very good job.  This would be the bracket I'd include Jamie Smith in as well before he signed for us.

[Ajja]

If we're talking specifically about a 'third force' outwith the Old Firm then Hearts should be included regardless of their so-called wealth. 

 

Also, there has been a number of players at other SPL teams who I may not have known a great deal about, but who've came in and done a very good job.  This would be the bracket I'd include Jamie Smith in as well before he signed for us.

 

I didn't discuss a 'third force' in my opinions (which I am assuming you are responding to) but the wider debate may be down that line. I would disagree with Jamie Smith as he was a pretty accomplished player with Celtic before progressing his career in Holland. You can't include players who turned out to be good, I must insist you apply the discipline of your initial gut reaction when compiling your list. Are you going to do one ?

[bilbobaggins]

I'd like him to do one.

[???]

I didn't discuss a 'third force' in my opinions (which I am assuming you are responding to) but the wider debate may be down that line. I would disagree with Jamie Smith as he was a pretty accomplished player with Celtic before progressing his career in Holland. You can't include players who turned out to be good, I must insist you apply the discipline of your initial gut reaction when compiling your list. Are you going to do one ?

 

I will name some players if you'll allow me to include players that I would include in the same bracket as Jamie Smith.  He rarely played for Celtic in his 6-7 years (not sure how much to be exact) there.  Seem to recall him playing less than 50 times, and for me that's not an established player.

 

I'm not interested in the whole third force debate either, I just don't think it's fair to exclude Hearts from this discussion though.  Regardless, Motherwell, Hibs and Dundee United (for example) have all signed players in recent years that I would've liked to have seen at Pittodrie given some of the sh*te we've had down the years.

 

I'd like him to do one.

 

Choke 

[Ajja]

I will name some players if you'll allow me to include players that I would include in the same bracket as Jamie Smith.  He rarely played for Celtic in his 6-7 years (not sure how much to be exact) there.  Seem to recall him playing less than 50 times, and for me that's not an established player.

 

Well, there is a problem there as the whole idea of this list is that its based on the perception of the person compiling it. Its immediately a subjective exercise which gives it very little value. Hence the reason why I am allowing you the opportunity to expose my own opinion as rubbish knowing I can immediately counter you with the same weight.  So best not bother, anyway the lack of a single name to refute my claim has me claiming victory already 

[Harcus]

according to soccerdatabase, Jamie played 63 times for Sellik, 40 of them coming from the bench. You never know, he might have been injured.

[???]

Well, there is a problem there as the whole idea of this list is that its based on the perception of the person compiling it. Its immediately a subjective exercise which gives it very little value. Hence the reason why I am allowing you the opportunity to expose my own opinion as rubbish knowing I can immediately counter you with the same weight.  So best not bother, anyway the lack of a single name to refute my claim has me claiming victory already 

 

 

Steven Hammell, Stephen Hughes, Chris Porter, Adam Hammill, Derek Riordan, Colin Nish, Ian Murray, Willo Flood, Anthony Stokes, Marius Niculae...

[Ajja]

 

Steven Hammell (fair enough), Stephen Hughes (oh please), Chris Porter (I bet you had never heard of him), Adam Hammill (He was good in Star Wars I guess), Derek Riordan (Doesn't count as he was moving backwards), Colin Nish (You're not serious are you ?), Ian Murray (See Riordan), Willo Flood (Again...who?), Anthony Stokes (You def had no idea who he was), Marius Niculae (could give you that but he was still pretty much an unknown quantity)...

 

Even if I accept all of these (which I don't) its still only 3 players to one club at best. I'll see that with at least 5 at Aberdeen - Severin, Miller, Nicholson, MacNamara, Lovell......that's without mentioning Smith !

[???]

Even if I accept all of these (which I don't) its still only 3 players to one club at best. I'll see that with at least 5 at Aberdeen - Severin, Miller, Nicholson, MacNamara, Lovell......that's without mentioning Smith !

 

Those were the first few players to come to my head.

 

The players I mentioned would've been a great acquisition at the time they were signed by the other SPL club in my opinion.

 

Hammell is the right back we need, I think Stephen Hughes would've done a good job for us (he's a better player than Duff, Young, et al), Chris Porter is better than Lovell, Adam Hammill was the young exciting player we were looking for (obviously now Sone Aluko), Colin Nish whilst not being a great player scores goals and would've been worth a punt, Willo Flood I'd watched many times for Cardiff, Anthony Stokes and Marius Niculae were as good as if not better than what we had at the time they played in Scotland.

 

Riordan and Murray definitely count as they are good players signing for another SPL team.  Moving backwards?  Surely Severin was moving backwards when he left Hearts for us? 

 

When you speak of players being an unknown quantity, you're basically saying that if they've not played in Scotland they're not known.  Maybe not to us, but to the SPL managers that matter they are known.

[BobbyBiscuit]

Steven Hammell is a left back.

[???]

Steven Hammell is a left back.

 

Ah, I thought he could play either or?  My mistake, would've still been good for us at the time Motherwell signed him (although we've now got Mulgrew). 

[Jocky Balboa]

Again, I'll ask:  Why should Aberdeen Football Club should be any better than Hearts, Hibs or United given that they have shite training facilities, are millions in debt, no real youth set-up until recently, etc, etc, etc?

 

Because Dundee Utd. and Hibs have only had a fraction of the budget Calderwood has had to work with. Hearts, despite having a larger wage bill, have had a revolving-door managerial policy. Which means that, on balance, Calderwood should have achieved more than 2 semi-finals and 1 3rd place finish. Getting to Europe once in 4 attempts is not good enough.

 

Sorry if you disagree Tradesman, but if your expectations are that low, maybe you should support a team befitting your level of ambition, like ICT or Motherwell?

[Ajja]

Those were the first few players to come to my head.

 

The players I mentioned would've been a great acquisition at the time they were signed by the other SPL club in my opinion.

 

Hammell is the right back we need, I think Stephen Hughes would've done a good job for us (he's a better player than Duff, Young, et al), Chris Porter is better than Lovell, Adam Hammill was the young exciting player we were looking for (obviously now Sone Aluko), Colin Nish whilst not being a great player scores goals and would've been worth a punt, Willo Flood I'd watched many times for Cardiff, Anthony Stokes and Marius Niculae were as good as if not better than what we had at the time they played in Scotland.

 

Riordan and Murray definitely count as they are good players signing for another SPL team.  Moving backwards?  Surely Severin was moving backwards when he left Hearts for us? 

 

When you speak of players being an unknown quantity, you're basically saying that if they've not played in Scotland they're not known.  Maybe not to us, but to the SPL managers that matter they are known.

The point is not that they must have played in Scotland the point is that in terms of being established players who Aberdeen fans would have thought 'thats a great signing' I don't think Chris Porter, Anthony Stokes, Adam Hammill or Marius Niculae fit into that catagory. They may have turned out to be good signings but then if you are extending the decision making criteria out then our list also gets bigger with the likes of Mulgrew, Aluko and Kerr.

 

My original point was about players who are widely known as being established players by football fans in Scotland. I still stand by the fact that we have signed more of them than anyone else in the last 4 years outside the OF and Hearts (I'm not even sure they have signed many more!). Thereby, we have established ourselves as having a competitive advantage through budget. These guys are not coming to Aberdeen for the sun and multi-culturalism thats for fucking sure.

 

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Because Dundee Utd. and Hibs have only had a fraction of the budget Calderwood has had to work with. Hearts, despite having a larger wage bill, have had a revolving-door managerial policy. Which means that, on balance, Calderwood should have achieved more than 2 semi-finals and 1 3rd place finish. Getting to Europe once in 4 attempts is not good enough.

 

Sorry if you disagree Tradesman, but if your expectations are that low, maybe you should support a team befitting your level of ambition, like ICT or Motherwell?

 

They also have a fraction of the debt, Hibs and Hearts have a training complex and Dundee United had consistently bigger pockets than Calderwood until quite recently and were still shite.

 

Look at teams that have "had cash" in the recent past, United, Motherwell, Dundee, Hearts. Big wage bills, debt and ultimately shite.

 

Perhaps an explanation of your own expectations and ambitions would be good here Jocky?

 

Though, ST wasn't alluding, as you said, to his own ambitions for AFC, just giving his assessment of where the club stands currently.

[???]

The point is not that they must have played in Scotland the point is that in terms of being established players who Aberdeen fans would have thought 'thats a great signing' I don't think Chris Porter, Anthony Stokes, Adam Hammill or Marius Niculae fit into that catagory. They may have turned out to be good signings but then if you are extending the decision making criteria out then our list also gets bigger with the likes of Mulgrew, Aluko and Kerr.

 

My original point was about players who are widely known as being established players by football fans in Scotland. I still stand by the fact that we have signed more of them than anyone else in the last 4 years outside the OF and Hearts (I'm not even sure they have signed many more!). Thereby, we have established ourselves as having a competitive advantage through budget. These guys are not coming to Aberdeen for the sun and multi-culturalism thats for fucking sure.

 

 

You're losing me a bit here, I think we've somehow strayed from the original point which was

 

With the capture of players like Severin, Jamie Smith, MacNamara and more recently Mark Kerr (who UTD did not want to lose) I think Aberdeen FC have demonstrated that they can attract players from a better pool than most other clubs in the league. So in capturing establised players we have shown we posses a competitive advantage in my mind.

 

[quote author= link=topic=6794.msg103411#msg103411 date=1228394098]Whilst I can see both sides of the argument, this argument here isn't necessarily valid as there are other teams in the league who have attracted players that we would take in a heartbeat.

 

Which I stand by.  Just because they're not known to some fans in Scotland, doesn't mean they're not established. 

 

Laryea Kingston, for example, is as good if not better than all of our midfielders, and is an established player who I'd never heard of until he signed for Hearts.

 

I can see what you're getting at, and agree to a point but think it's a flawed argument.  If you're talking specifically about the impact their signing made in Scotland, then your point is a fair one.  At the same time, Hibs signing Derek Riordan, Sol Bamba and Ian Murray has as big an impact as us signing Scott Severin and Mark Kerr.

 

We'll just have to agree to agree, or disagree, or something.