Helicopter ditches in North Sea

[rocket_scientist]

Cynical me thinks that when choppers fall out of the sky, it's negligent management.

 

 

The chopper operators have a duty of care. It's so obvious that they do that it's enshrined in law.

 

 

When these things start falling, it's either manufacturer defect or negligent maintenance.

 

 

Given the frequency of their usage, and the profits available for their frequent utilisation, if I was a betting man then I would guess that it is more likely to be negligent maintenance rather than manufacturer defect.

 

 

Another example of corporate greed costing human lives in all probability.

 

 

Nothing new there then.

[CtS]

You're an intelligent man Rocket, but your assumptions are so wide of the mark it's unbelievable.

[rocket_scientist]

I'm not assuming that this accident was as a result of inadequate maintenance. Not at all.

 

 

What I did do was on one hand, identify possible reasons and secondly, provoking a response.

 

 

Given the nature of the site, there may be a good chance that a poster, or his or her brother/sister/spouse/father etc. worked for the chopper companies or knew someone who did.

 

 

The inquest/investigations will no doubt come to a conclusion but whatever transpires, the persons involved will be given money and asked to sign away their rights for any further action.

 

 

Even though I didn't assume it, I did suggest that it was the most probable of the options. I discounted human operator error and extreme weather conditions but you obviously have something to say on the subject? I would be intrigued to learn your view? If it is manufacturer defect and the Super Puma has again been found unfit for service, this again points to management negligence, which a cynical observer like me with no specific industry knowledge gravitates towards as a default position.

 

 

If my default is "so wide of the mark", I would be interested in learning where the mark actually is?

 

 

Please enlighten and thanks in advance. Hope I didn't offend.

[CtS]

 

I'm not up for a big debate about this tonight, and you're entitled to your opinions whether you're simply stating your thoughts or trying to stimulate a response.  What I can say is this horrific incident could have been triggered by a number of things, like you said, design flaw, maintenance error, numerous weather scenarios...maybe something else, bird strike, lightning, contaminated fuel, crew illness or state of mind...

 

We don't know and we shouldn't be apportioning blame until we do know.

 

Your point about corporate greed is a pertinent one, and one I've touched on myself a few pages ago with Kow, the clear conflict of profit versus safety. It just doesn't work.

 

Thoughts with all those involved in, or affected by this incident. 

[rocket_scientist]

I doubt we will ever know the real reason. The reason we may not get the reason is that the investigators will not be truly independent and impartial, despite seeming to be.

 

A helicopter working all day every day is pushing the boundaries, surely? I'm amazed an easyjet doesn't fall out of the sky. They land for barely half an hour, re-fuel and go again. Boeing and them are obviously very good at their job - making planes - where I'm not sure that the safety record of THIS PARTICULAR MAKE OF HELICOPTER is anything other than diabolical.

 

[tom_widdows]

Simple fact is helicopter as an aircraft is not as safe as a plane.

Plane's engine(s) fail the pilot at least has the ability to glide and control a chance of controlling a crash landing. I would presume part of the annual top up training commercial pilots go through in the simulator is how you crash land in numerous conditions and terrains.

When a plane lands on water the shape and design makes it actually quite stable so in theory it will take alot longer to sink, certainly long enough to get the survivors out and onto life rafts.

 

Helicopter engine fails and it drops out of the sky. They are also extremely unstable which is one of the reasons riggers do the training in the water tank when the mock helicopter cabin is dropped into the water and then turns upside down. Even if the airbags deployed when it hit the water even in a mild swell it wont take much to capsize and then it comes down to several factors such as how experienced the passengers are, how well they can actually cope with the shock of the initial crash and suddenly being submerged into sea water, that they didnt inflate or accidentally activate their life jacket before they managed to get out through the windows etc.

 

The Superpuma has been used since the late 70s and given the number of flights they make around the world every day they are about as safe as a helicopter can be. Like all aircraft they go through serious checks before they are allowed to take off and if any fault is found in any aircraft it is not allowed to leave the ground until 1) they fixed the faults and 2) they know what caused it 3) they know how they fixed it. The sad fact is compared to a plane the helicopter is a deathtrap.

 

[CtS]

Sorry Tom but there's an awful lot of horse shit in that post.

[tom_widdows]

Im willing to concede to anyone with more knowledge on the subject than me.

 

What I've posted comes from discussions with an ex North sea Rigger  (14 years with Britoil & BP) and self confessed Aeroplane nut.

 

 

[CtS]

The notion that you would stand more chance of surviving a 747 ditching in the sea rather than a super puma is laughable. The perception that a helicopter 'drops out of the sky' after engine failure is inaccurate in the extreme.

 

The amount of nonsense I've read on this subject by people who are (understandably) freaked out by the latest incident, but are simply writing untruths and ill-informed Chinese whispers, is astounding. People should research their 'facts' before they post them, or at least start your post with 'correct me if I'm wrong, but....'.

 

I have sympathy for anyone who is affected by the terrible series of helicopter incidents in the North Sea, but the inaccurate reporting and speculation is only enhancing the fear and frustration for all of us who travel regularly on these machines.

[Tyrant]

Like many people I've been thinking about this a lot. Particularly with it just being a matter of time before I'm sent offshore in one of these crafts. I work a company that has a helicopter ditch training facility up in Altens and hear often that paying the fee and turning up pretty much ensure you'll be certified as "trained" to deal with a situation like this. Folk turn up who can't swim or who can't speak a word of English but are mollycoddled through. I just hope that this hasn't cost anyone their lives on this occasion. I should point out that I've not seen this happening. But have heard many tales of the like happening. It's not good enough. If you can't fucking swim you should learn before you go offshore. It's not difficult. Doesn't everyone get swimming lessons at school? And putting a useless swimmer next to the instructor so they can pull them out if they struggle is fucking useless for preparing them for a real-life situation. Now although I know there's nothing to suggest that a lack of training caused deaths I feel my point about making sure offshore workers are fully prepared is a valid one.  Safety is not an area where corners should ever be cut.

 

What I did hear is that the chopper ditched very suddenly and that those on board apparently didn't even have time to brace. How factual this is I have no idea in all honesty. I hope they get to the bottom of this and I hope the heads roll that need to roll.

 

[Superstar Tradesman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but.... my chopper would hit the ground like a fucking dart if Mrs CTS climbed aboard.

 

[CtS]

They'd have to under sling her mate, cabin doors ain't wide enough. 

[Kowalski]

I do think all these rallies/protests/online petitions etc... should perhaps wait for the results of the investigation into the crash.  Yes, it might be another gearbox failure or similar, but we don't know that yet.

 

I've read some right pish on Facebook over the last week (more so than usual!).

 

[mizer]

This is the RMT protest - all 6 of them

 

[Superstar Tradesman]

Still bigger than the JMG one all those years back.

[CtS]

Still bigger than the JMG one all those years back.

 

 

The JMG protest makes the RMT one look like Tiananmen Square.

 

 

I notice Bobby Crow wants to make the UK sector as safe as the Norwegian sector, so he's encouraged his members not to fly in these super puma death traps...

 

 

http://www.energyvoice.com/2013/08/norway-rejects-union-calls-to-ground-super-pumas/

 

 

Ooops.

[mizer]

The Super Puma helicopter which crashed off Shetland, with the loss of four lives, appeared to show a "reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent".

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) said it appeared the helicopter was intact and upright when it entered the water.

However the AAIB said it was too early to identify a cause.

The search for the flight data recorder is ongoing.

The AAIB update reported: "Preliminary information indicates that the approach proceeded normally until approximately three miles from the runway when there was a reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent.

"The helicopter struck the sea approximately two miles west of the runway threshold.

"The evidence currently available suggests that the helicopter was intact and upright when it entered the water.

"It then rapidly inverted and drifted northwards. The helicopter was largely broken up by repeated contact with the rocky shoreline.

"The investigation is ongoing and at this early stage it is not possible to identify the causal factors leading to the accident."

Much of the wreckage of the Super Puma has been brought ashore.

Key parts arrived at Lerwick at 04:30 on the support vessel Bibby Polaris.

It is expected to be taken by another boat to Aberdeen before being transported to Farnborough for accident investigators to analyse.

Divers know the rough location of the flight data recorder, but heavy swell has hampered efforts to retrieve it.

Marine engineering company Ocean Kinetics, which is carrying out the recovery operation, has already and recovered the helicopter's gearbox and rotor head.

Both engines and parts of the cockpit have been located off the southern tip of Shetland and are expected to be recovered later on Thursday.

[Kowalski]

My missus works with somebody whose husband survived the crash.  It sounded an absolute nightmare, he was desperately trying to help people escape the helicopter and couldn't get the unfortunate woman out who became stuck somehow.  He's seemingly been having all sorts of flashbacks.

[CtS]

CVFDR recovered and will be analysed later today.

 

The wording of the press release is interesting and says more by what it doesn't say, if you know what I mean.

[Kowalski]

CVFDR recovered and will be analysed later today.

 

The wording of the press release is interesting and says more by what it doesn't say, if you know what I mean.

 

Aye.  Rumours it ran out of fuel.  Or perhaps it was a bird strike?

 

Some Super Pumas are to return to service.

[mizer]

Just found out that I am distantly related to the Elgin quine that died in the crash - her mum & her family fae my mums village. As Kow says above now reported as not a techincal problem.