SPL 2....why?

[Mackie's ace!]

Oh, I haven't looked at that forum yet.

[BrownyBrown]

Don't delete any posts, whatever you do..

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Fucking accountants

[BigAl]

Fucking accountants

 

Do you have a preference as to whether male or female

[Ajja]

Bigger league will never happen.  There aren't enough clubs of a sufficient size to have a 18 or 20 team league.  A 16 team league means 4 LESS home games, ontop of this instead of home games vs rangers, celtic, hearts, united and hibs we get home games vs st johnstone, livvie, thistle and dundee.

 

TV revenue would be less also given both the drop in number of games and drop in quantity of marketable games.

 

Apart from the OF the league as it stands has worked pretty well in recent years (if you ignore the aberration that was Gretna).  Take this season: 3 way battle for 3rd/europe, then possibly a 3 way fight for "top 6" and then a right old scrap to avoid relegation.  Expand the league and half the clubs will have nothing to play for by now. 

 

The idea that a bigger league with teams 'having nothing to play for' will bring a better product may be a little counter intuitive but I think it is the only sensible way forward.

 

I get the argument about less home games but surely we have moved beyond the old debate that all other clubs are so dependant on the revenue of the OF visits that they will never allow change to occur ? With live TV dominating most teams home games with the OF these days the crowds are dwindling, is this revenue really make or break for SPL clubs ? There has to be a breaking point where clubs realise that by hanging onto these relics of past discussion they are strangling the game by restricting its ability to adapt to a different environment ?

 

I would think there is almost consensus now for an expanded league set up. Personally I would not only support an expanded top league but I'd be tempted by a two league set up with 16-18 in each and the other clubs could consolidate. I mean some of the areas that are represented in the football league is ridiculous. Dunfermline & Cowdenbeath ? I mean for fuck sake why can't we just have West Fife Minks UTD ? We just can't support the number of teams we have playing in top leagues......now that is something that's never gonna happen.

[El Padre™]

Do you have a preference as to whether male or female

 

There's no accountant without cunt. 

[glasgowdon]

The idea that a bigger league with teams 'having nothing to play for' will bring a better product may be a little counter intuitive but I think it is the only sensible way forward.

 

I get the argument about less home games but surely we have moved beyond the old debate that all other clubs are so dependant on the revenue of the OF visits that they will never allow change to occur ? With live TV dominating most teams home games with the OF these days the crowds are dwindling, is this revenue really make or break for SPL clubs ? There has to be a breaking point where clubs realise that by hanging onto these relics of past discussion they are strangling the game by restricting its ability to adapt to a different environment ?

 

I would think there is almost consensus now for an expanded league set up. Personally I would not only support an expanded top league but I'd be tempted by a two league set up with 16-18 in each and the other clubs could consolidate. I mean some of the areas that are represented in the football league is ridiculous. Dunfermline & Cowdenbeath ? I mean for fuck sake why can't we just have West Fife Minks UTD ? We just can't support the number of teams we have playing in top leagues......now that is something that's never gonna happen.

 

When you look at TV money, Setanta have only got the Premiership for another season and a half so after that we may see an increase in Setanta TV money.

[glasgow sheep]

The idea that a bigger league with teams 'having nothing to play for' will bring a better product may be a little counter intuitive but I think it is the only sensible way forward.

 

I get the argument about less home games but surely we have moved beyond the old debate that all other clubs are so dependant on the revenue of the OF visits that they will never allow change to occur ? With live TV dominating most teams home games with the OF these days the crowds are dwindling, is this revenue really make or break for SPL clubs ? There has to be a breaking point where clubs realise that by hanging onto these relics of past discussion they are strangling the game by restricting its ability to adapt to a different environment ?

 

I would think there is almost consensus now for an expanded league set up. Personally I would not only support an expanded top league but I'd be tempted by a two league set up with 16-18 in each and the other clubs could consolidate. I mean some of the areas that are represented in the football league is ridiculous. Dunfermline & Cowdenbeath ? I mean for fuck sake why can't we just have West Fife Minks UTD ? We just can't support the number of teams we have playing in top leagues......now that is something that's never gonna happen.

 

It's not just the loss of the OF home games, it's the loss of them AND games vs the likes of hearts and united and the fact they will be replaced with games that will be lucky to attract 10,000 punters, and to make matters even worse, even if the average crowd does hold up we lose as many as 4 home games, several hundreds of thousands.

 

As for this amalgamating teams. I've never bought this idea.  Combining Forfar, Montrose and Brechin, or East Stirlingshire, Stenhousmuir and Falkirk won't boost crowds at the resultant "super" club.  You are more likely to lose fans who would rightly feel their club and their identity has been taken away.  In anycase even if all the fans from the amalgamated clubs did follow the "super" teams they would still be little more significant than they are now.

 

The problems with Scottish Football really isn't found in the 2nd and 3rd divisions anyway.  Most clubs live within their means and have little in the way of significant financial worries (stranraer excepted).  They don't take a significant amount of money away from the top 2 leagues either.

 

The problems the top 2 leagues have is promoting their products in a crowded market place and the domination of the OF.  Of course ham-fisted administration of the leagues doesn't help either, nor does the increasing arrogance of the Old Firm Boards and their fan base.

I don't know the answer but I just can't see a top 16/18 making a difference.  The last time we had such a set up the league was dying a death and the lowest average crowds for decades and beyond an initial blip in interest I can't see it being any more successful now.

[ntbear]

The idea that a bigger league with teams 'having nothing to play for' will bring a better product may be a little counter intuitive but I think it is the only sensible way forward.

 

I get the argument about less home games but surely we have moved beyond the old debate that all other clubs are so dependant on the revenue of the OF visits that they will never allow change to occur ? With live TV dominating most teams home games with the OF these days the crowds are dwindling, is this revenue really make or break for SPL clubs ? There has to be a breaking point where clubs realise that by hanging onto these relics of past discussion they are strangling the game by restricting its ability to adapt to a different environment ?

 

I would think there is almost consensus now for an expanded league set up. Personally I would not only support an expanded top league but I'd be tempted by a two league set up with 16-18 in each and the other clubs could consolidate. I mean some of the areas that are represented in the football league is ridiculous. Dunfermline & Cowdenbeath ? I mean for fuck sake why can't we just have West Fife Minks UTD ? We just can't support the number of teams we have playing in top leagues......now that is something that's never gonna happen.

 

Once again, you are spot on here.

 

Two leagues of 16-18 and bin the rest to non-leagues. Let's face it, the split has made us a laughing stock.

 

As for the TV argument, there were no games on tv many years ago, and football survived - besides, there are better deals to be negotiated, if the majority can vote against the OF. In a world of internet connections, someone really should be offering all SPL games for live streaming for a fee. You would get far more revenue from that than some tv deals that are going to come scottish football's way.

 

As for the amalgamation argument, I can't agree with sheep - Inverness HAS profited from a union - It makes financial sense to merge the scumdee teams. It's a bit like the Man Utd problem, hw many fans 'deserted' them over the Glazier buyout, yet now attend OT again? I don't think you can say what will happen with various mergers, it's like arguing what colour my next shite will be.

[???]

As for the TV argument, there were no games on tv many years ago, and football survived

 

Without TV revenue, how will modern wages be paid?  If we had no TV money, we'd be even further behind the top teams in Europe.

[Andrew]

It's a bit like the Man Utd problem, hw many fans 'deserted' them over the Glazier buyout, yet now attend OT again? I don't think you can say what will happen with various mergers, it's like arguing what colour my next shite will be.

 

Real fans support F.C. United of Manchester.

 

How does the split make us a laughing stock? Made the league a lot more competitive and something to fight for for the likes of Falkirk, Inverness, Motherwell, Killie etc.

[smooth]

Firstly i'd abolish the saturday 3-5 tv blackout and sell it to the highest bidder.  I think this would make up for any loses made from only hosting the OF once a season when i extend the league to 18 teams.

 

Secondly i like the idea of Kelt's East/West coast conferences except, i'd still have one league just the east play each other 3 times and the west teams play each other 3 times and the crossover of east/west teams play each other twice.  Similar to the NBA set up.  So games within conference set up = 24 plus cross conference games 18 = 42 league games.  The aggregate scoreline between the teams of the 1st 2 games decides who gets the home game.  

 

Thirdly remove the league cup - it's pish and worthless (even if it's a good day out!).  Play league games in it's place - so those not involved in europe are also playing midweek and schedule them properly i.e. not have aberdeen v killie midweek but play the arabs etc.

 

Fourthly insist on better coverage.  The current tv coverage is rank rotten and is only harming the game.

 

Finally, ban all youth football from taking place at the same time as the Local game.  I.e. if aberdeen play at 3 on sat no youth football can take place at the same time.  Games must finish at 2 or be played on sunday.

 

[Ajja]

It's not just the loss of the OF home games, it's the loss of them AND games vs the likes of hearts and united and the fact they will be replaced with games that will be lucky to attract 10,000 punters, and to make matters even worse, even if the average crowd does hold up we lose as many as 4 home games, several hundreds of thousands.

 

As for this amalgamating teams. I've never bought this idea.  Combining Forfar, Montrose and Brechin, or East Stirlingshire, Stenhousmuir and Falkirk won't boost crowds at the resultant "super" club.  You are more likely to lose fans who would rightly feel their club and their identity has been taken away.  In anycase even if all the fans from the amalgamated clubs did follow the "super" teams they would still be little more significant than they are now.

 

The problems with Scottish Football really isn't found in the 2nd and 3rd divisions anyway.  Most clubs live within their means and have little in the way of significant financial worries (stranraer excepted).  They don't take a significant amount of money away from the top 2 leagues either.

 

The problems the top 2 leagues have is promoting their products in a crowded market place and the domination of the OF.  Of course ham-fisted administration of the leagues doesn't help either, nor does the increasing arrogance of the Old Firm Boards and their fan base.

I don't know the answer but I just can't see a top 16/18 making a difference.  The last time we had such a set up the league was dying a death and the lowest average crowds for decades and beyond an initial blip in interest I can't see it being any more successful now.

 

I'm pretty clear that merging teams is very unlikely to happen as it would be too painful in the short term for too many people. However, I believe this is a myopic viewpoint and in the long term it would bring stronger, better supported clubs to our league set up. It might take generational change to solve the problem but it would happen, as ntbear say, Inverness is a good example of a work in progress.

 

Realistically, we either bin a bunch of teams to the lower leagues in a darwinian style cull (akin to throwing dead weight off a sinking ship) or we rally together and organise for a more sensible geographical representation in our leagues. I believe that both systems would eventually deliver, providing less teams in the top leagues but they would be stronger teams offering a more competitive set up and then a better product.

 

 

[Jute]

I have noticed that the fans who suggest teams merging are the ones who know there is no chance of it happening to their team. Would the fans on here suggesting it still be doing that if one of the suggested mergers was with Dons and Arabs.

 

Even the merger of the two Inverness teams lost fans to the game with the vast majority of the Inverness Thistle fans having nothing to do with the new club and also a fair number of Caley fans. Anyone looking for evidence of this should look at the Caledonian FC thread on Pie and Bovril.

 

Better way to deal with the teams at the bottom end of the league is to set up a proper pyramid system in Scotland that would allow ambitious non league clubs access to league set up and would allow clubs at the bottom of the league to find there own level rather than just killing them off.

 

As for extending the league this would just lead to more meaningless games that fans simply would not turn up to watch. As it is Livngston v Dundee for example only attracts 1800 fans when they are pushing for promotion to SPL why would more people turn up to watch them battle for 11th in an expanded top league. I would go back to 10 team SPL with 1 automatic down then 2nd bottom going to a play off with 2nd in the first division.

[ntbear]

Without TV revenue, how will modern wages be paid?  If we had no TV money, we'd be even further behind the top teams in Europe.

 

AFC were so far behind we qualified for the knockout phase of the UEFA last year - oh and had to pay a tv station to show our games.....

[ntbear]

Real fans support F.C. United of Manchester.

 

How does the split make us a laughing stock? Made the league a lot more competitive and something to fight for for the likes of Falkirk, Inverness, Motherwell, Killie etc.

 

1. They maybe do - but a lot of fans went back - and some support both to save "face"

 

2. It does make us a laughing stock - no-one in their right minds thinks it's a good idea - it's a rugby league / american football "post season" idea right royally fucked up. Not having equal numbers of home away games, playing some sides only twice - utter bollocks and you know it.

[ntbear]

Firstly i'd abolish the saturday 3-5 tv blackout and sell it to the highest bidder.  I think this would make up for any loses made from only hosting the OF once a season when i extend the league to 18 teams.

Agreed - but it's a UEFA/FIFA thing.

Secondly i like the idea of Kelt's East/West coast conferences except, i'd still have one league just the east play each other 3 times and the west teams play each other 3 times and the crossover of east/west teams play each other twice.  Similar to the NBA set up.  So games within conference set up = 24 plus cross conference games 18 = 42 league games.  The aggregate scoreline between the teams of the 1st 2 games decides who gets the home game.  

Dunno, need to think on that one a wee bit

Thirdly remove the league cup - it's pish and worthless (even if it's a good day out!).  Play league games in it's place - so those not involved in europe are also playing midweek and schedule them properly i.e. not have aberdeen v killie midweek but play the arabs etc.

Go for a cup competition with teams from wales / ireland / lower english leagues instead - much more attractive for tv

Fourthly insist on better coverage.  The current tv coverage is rank rotten and is only harming the game.

This is my point - no one wants to cover the thing on their tv stations - the SPL should setup it's own - or let clubs handle their own tv rights.

Finally, ban all youth football from taking place at the same time as the Local game.  I.e. if aberdeen play at 3 on sat no youth football can take place at the same time.  Games must finish at 2 or be played on sunday.

Agreed

[ntbear]

I have noticed that the fans who suggest teams merging are the ones who know there is no chance of it happening to their team. Would the fans on here suggesting it still be doing that if one of the suggested mergers was with Dons and Arabs.

 

Even the merger of the two Inverness teams lost fans to the game with the vast majority of the Inverness Thistle fans having nothing to do with the new club and also a fair number of Caley fans. Anyone looking for evidence of this should look at the Caledonian FC thread on Pie and Bovril.

 

Well, the idea of merging sides would be done geographically, so the only real mergers AFC could get are cove and inverurie.

It would be better to merge the likes of the dundee teams than have them go under, but I agree there would be a lot of resistance.

 

As for the ICT argument, I simply don't believe they are getting lower crowds now as to when they were two separate sides.

[Ajja]

I have noticed that the fans who suggest teams merging are the ones who know there is no chance of it happening to their team. Would the fans on here suggesting it still be doing that if one of the suggested mergers was with Dons and Arabs.

 

Even the merger of the two Inverness teams lost fans to the game with the vast majority of the Inverness Thistle fans having nothing to do with the new club and also a fair number of Caley fans. Anyone looking for evidence of this should look at the Caledonian FC thread on Pie and Bovril.

 

Better way to deal with the teams at the bottom end of the league is to set up a proper pyramid system in Scotland that would allow ambitious non league clubs access to league set up and would allow clubs at the bottom of the league to find there own level rather than just killing them off.

 

As for extending the league this would just lead to more meaningless games that fans simply would not turn up to watch. As it is Livngston v Dundee for example only attracts 1800 fans when they are pushing for promotion to SPL why would more people turn up to watch them battle for 11th in an expanded top league. I would go back to 10 team SPL with 1 automatic down then 2nd bottom going to a play off with 2nd in the first division.

 

While I don't disagree with alot of what you are saying...I do 

 

You haven't taken any account of the idea that teams manage risk associated with failure by playing very defensive football. The threat of relegation may provide spurts of excitement in the final throws of a league but for 95% of the season it provides safe, unattractive football. While an extended league clearly means there will be some games with no meaning, a 10 team league doesn't eradicate this problem. the meaningless fixture problem also only exists for a short period at the end of the season, unlike the 95% of the time a risk avoidance strategy does.

 

 

[glasgow sheep]

I have noticed that the fans who suggest teams merging are the ones who know there is no chance of it happening to their team. Would the fans on here suggesting it still be doing that if one of the suggested mergers was with Dons and Arabs.

 

Even the merger of the two Inverness teams lost fans to the game with the vast majority of the Inverness Thistle fans having nothing to do with the new club and also a fair number of Caley fans. Anyone looking for evidence of this should look at the Caledonian FC thread on Pie and Bovril.

 

Better way to deal with the teams at the bottom end of the league is to set up a proper pyramid system in Scotland that would allow ambitious non league clubs access to league set up and would allow clubs at the bottom of the league to find there own level rather than just killing them off.

 

As for extending the league this would just lead to more meaningless games that fans simply would not turn up to watch. As it is Livngston v Dundee for example only attracts 1800 fans when they are pushing for promotion to SPL why would more people turn up to watch them battle for 11th in an expanded top league. I would go back to 10 team SPL with 1 automatic down then 2nd bottom going to a play off with 2nd in the first division.

 

Very much agree Jute.

If you look back over the years since ICT came up into the league Ross County have actually had bigger average crowds for most of the years the two sides were in the same league.  Of course there is no way of proving it but if Inverness Thistle or Caledonian came up by themselves they probably would have ended up with much the same support as the combined side has now.

 

How far do you take the merging of clubs?  Falkirk are a decent sized club now, but there are 2 other clubs within spitting distance.  Do you then merge East Stirlingshire and Stenny with Falkirk or just merge the two clubs themselves and leave Falkirk?  Either way it won't make a sod of difference.  Equally the angus clubs, lanarkshire clubs and ayrshire.  Merging clubs doesn't stop most folk supporting the old firm, and that is the main problem most of these clubs face.

 

As for abolishing the League Cup.  I read somewhere you actually get more cash from winning it than you do for winning the Scottish Cup.  The League cup was a great tournament.  Now we have 5 euro spots perhaps the league cup should get one back again.  The biggest improvement would be if it went back to a short sharp tournament played to a finish by October or November.

[Jute]

You haven't taken any account of the idea that teams manage risk associated with failure by playing very defensive football. The threat of relegation may provide spurts of excitement in the final throws of a league but for 95% of the season it provides safe, unattractive football. While an extended league clearly means there will be some games with no meaning, a 10 team league doesn't eradicate this problem. the meaningless fixture problem also only exists for a short period at the end of the season, unlike the 95% of the time a risk avoidance strategy does.

 

 

 

Pretty sure the arguement against old league was that there were teams like Dundee and Morton to whom 90% of the games they played in the league were meaningless as they were unlikely to get relegated and never in the hunt for europe or title.

[Ajja]

Very much agree Jute.

If you look back over the years since ICT came up into the league Ross County have actually had bigger average crowds for most of the years the two sides were in the same league.  Of course there is no way of proving it but if Inverness Thistle or Caledonian came up by themselves they probably would have ended up with much the same support as the combined side has now.

 

How far do you take the merging of clubs?  Falkirk are a decent sized club now, but there are 2 other clubs within spitting distance.  Do you then merge East Stirlingshire and Stenny with Falkirk or just merge the two clubs themselves and leave Falkirk?  Either way it won't make a sod of difference.  Equally the angus clubs, lanarkshire clubs and ayrshire.  Merging clubs doesn't stop most folk supporting the old firm, and that is the main problem most of these clubs face.

 

As for abolishing the League Cup.  I read somewhere you actually get more cash from winning it than you do for winning the Scottish Cup.  The League cup was a great tournament.  Now we have 5 euro spots perhaps the league cup should get one back again.  The biggest improvement would be if it went back to a short sharp tournament played to a finish by October or November.

 

I'm not entirley sure what the argument here is about. Are you holding up Ross County as an example of how a team from a similar region who did not change status are flourishing more than a team that did ? or are you suggesting that Ross County have actually benefited from a loss of support for the Inverness merger ?

 

Just because there are clearly massive emotive issues and as many layers of complexity as you wish to build into the idea of merging clubs doesn't make it pointless. I agree that its not immediately obvious who gets merged and who doesn't but you are deflecting the argument away from the simple principal that there are too many clubs in Scottish football who are trying to take a piece of a small pie. I actually agree with Jute in terms of the pyramid system, letting clubs find their natural level is a similar route to the 'survival of the fittest' idea I would support.

 

[glasgow sheep]

I'm not entirley sure what the argument here is about. Are you holding up Ross County as an example of how a team from a similar region who did not change status are flourishing more than a team that did ? or are you suggesting that Ross County have actually benefited from a loss of support for the Inverness merger ?

 

Just because there are clearly massive emotive issues and as many layers of complexity as you wish to build into the idea of merging clubs doesn't make it pointless. I agree that its not immediately obvious who gets merged and who doesn't but you are deflecting the argument away from the simple principal that there are too many clubs in Scottish football who are trying to take a piece of a small pie. I actually agree with Jute in terms of the pyramid system, letting clubs find their natural level is a similar route to the 'survival of the fittest' idea I would support.

 

 

My point was I'm not convinced the fact Thistle and Caley merged had much to do with their current "success", it may well have happened in any case if one club was allowed up.

 

Folk go on about "too many clubs" but how much do the bottom 20 actually take from the game?  Or to put it another way if we took all the money they currently make and spread it among the top 22 would it make a blind bit of difference.  There should be a regional set up, probably below the current 1st or 2nd divisions, but this will need to involve seismic change, namely the Juniors being scrapped and amalgamated into the senior set up. 

 

Btw I see Henry McLeish is going to be heading an independent review into Scottish Football.  How many years will this one take, and what ever happened to Ernie Walker's think-tank?

[Azteca1903]

Two 16/18 team leagues, 3 up, 3 down with play-offs. North/south pyramid below them. Simple.

 

As for the drop in games from 38, maybe account for them with a group stage in the league cup, and get it over and done with by December? Havn't thought that one through though...

[ntbear]

less games fits with the much talked about winter break