New stadium thread

[Superstar Tradesman]

If only we knew a builder who could undertake such a feat........

[tom_widdows]

St Marys - http://binged.it/HDyoah - Purpose built new stadium in brownbelt site with 3 sides of the stadium surrounded by carparking and a large concourse (like that of the RDS) separating the other side from a public road. Emergency access on all 4 sides

 

Old Trafford - http://binged.it/IKDfr8 - Very rich club able to buy out residents and businesses to clear the area around. Large pedestrian zones/ carparks on 3 sides. Matt Busby way provides access only to the stadium. They however cannot reach an agreement with the railway so they as of yet cannot redevelop the old main stand to increase their capacity to 90000.

 

Carrow Road - http://binged.it/HDz2Vt - all 4 sides of the stadium are pedestrian control areas. No public access roads are impeded on match days and emergency services have full access on all sides.

 

The Hawthorns - http://binged.it/IKEHdf - Slightly tight site but plenty of alternative roads routes and accesses allow them to control Halford lane on match days. Stand on Birmingham road has minimum distance permitted to allow for queuing spectators and still allowed them to increase capacity. Compare that situation to the main stand at pittodrie. And of course - emergency cervice access on all 4 sides.

 

Pittodrie - http://binged.it/IKCnTl

Older aerial view but the development behind the South Stand is now complete.

North is Pittodrie street - A public road providing access to businesses and homes. You cannot permanantly close public roads without providing a replacement route, especially if they encircle large venues which require strict emergency service access. Any new stand at pittodrie brings in the new regulations even if the other 3 dont.

 

Finally you seem to imply that compulsory purchase orders are something you just have to  fill out a form and obtain. For airports, railway lines etc perhaps yes. For private companys wanting to extend? No chance. Take a look at how much Arsenal had to pay out to clear thes site for the Emirates.

 

Ingenuity and thinking is a great idea Reekie. I mean thats what has been stopping it all in the first place.

 

Yes Pittodrie could be redeveloped but under current safety standards and regulations for stadium design the capacity would be vastly reduced. Possibly to just over 10000. It certainly wouldnt allow the closure of Pittodrie street (the fact the club dont own said street is a big sticking point). Also what assets do we have to sell off to carry this transformation out? Previous administrations could have made the effort to buy up the land around the stadium to either stop it being boxed in or to sell off for profit later on but given the rumours our 1970s/80s board told the oil companies to fuck off when they offered sponsorship I doubt any of them had the forsight or ambission to even suggest such a move

[Superstar Tradesman]

 

Ingenuity and thinking is a great idea Reekie. I mean thats what has been stopping it all in the first place.

 

Yes Pittodrie could be redeveloped but under current safety standards and regulations for stadium design the capacity would be vastly reduced. Possibly to just over 10000. It certainly wouldnt allow the closure of Pittodrie street (the fact the club dont own said street is a big sticking point). Also what assets do we have to sell off to carry this transformation out? Previous administrations could have made the effort to buy up the land around the stadium to either stop it being boxed in or to sell off for profit later on but given the rumours our 1970s/80s board told the oil companies to fuck off when they offered sponsorship I doubt any of them had the forsight or ambission to even suggest such a move

 

Redevelop, safety standards, regulations, design, capacity, assets, transformation, administrations, profit, board, oil companies, sponsorship, foresight, ambition.  All words that I've plucked from your post Tim.  None of which a football fan should concern himself with.

 

All however words that our chairman uses on a daily basis in his day job.  None of which he concerns himself with when it comes to AFC.

 

It's easy to blame the council here, but remember why we're in this position in the first place.

 

If he was building flats then he'd make it happen and I very much doubt he'd let them fall into a state of disrepair.

 

 

[Penfold]

Absolute lies from George Yule on RedTV today! Anyone got an email address for AFC that they've actually had a reply from?

 

[warleywoods]

The strategy to move Aberdeen FC away from Pittodrie has been one that Stewart Milne has been following since he became Chairman in 1998. He failed with the Bellfield site and his site at Loirston is now unravelling because he has failed to build consensus on the matter. The decision last night was a cross party decision and indicates that whatever Milne was trying to push through lacked the support of a group of Councillors who would ordinarily be making political capital out of a situation such as this.

 

To make what on the face of it is a deeply unpopular decision to the Aberdeen public along cross party lines demonstrates to me that Milne either hadn't lined up all of his ducks or whatever he was proposing wasn't thought through or that his advisors got it wrong. I am sorry, but to be in the position they were in last night, this far down the line with the amount of money the Club has spent on the move is totally and utterly untenable and unbelievable.

 

Milne is a failure. He has overseen the most unsuccessful period in our post war history, he has run down our stadium to the point supposedly that it can't host a junior football fixture (although I see the rugby is coming to town again as are Scotland in the New Year) and attendances (despite the best efforts of the fans for Sell Out Saturday) are the worst in 40 years. None of those things can be blamed on the Council.

 

The best thing for Aberdeen FC is for Milne to go. Simply put, he has failed. He needs to put the club up for sale or at least enable a fan led buyout of the club. At least the fans then are in control of our destiny.

[tom_widdows]

The strategy to move Aberdeen FC away from Pittodrie has been one that Stewart Milne has been following since he became Chairman in 1998. He failed with the Bellfield site and his site at Loirston is now unravelling because he has failed to build consensus on the matter. The decision last night was a cross party decision and indicates that whatever Milne was trying to push through lacked the support of a group of Councillors who would ordinarily be making political capital out of a situation such as this.

 

To make what on the face of it is a deeply unpopular decision to the Aberdeen public along cross party lines demonstrates to me that Milne either hadn't lined up all of his ducks or whatever he was proposing wasn't thought through or that his advisors got it wrong. I am sorry, but to be in the position they were in last night, this far down the line with the amount of money the Club has spent on the move is totally and utterly untenable and unbelievable.

 

Milne is a failure. He has overseen the most unsuccessful period in our post war history, he has run down our stadium to the point supposedly that it can't host a junior football fixture (although I see the rugby is coming to town again as are Scotland in the New Year) and attendances (despite the best efforts of the fans for Sell Out Saturday) are the worst in 40 years. None of those things can be blamed on the Council.

 

The best thing for Aberdeen FC is for Milne to go. Simply put, he has failed. He needs to put the club up for sale or at least enable a fan led buyout of the club. At least the fans then are in control of our destiny.

 

was wondering when you would show up again

[warleywoods]

Good to see you as well Tom! Can you argue with anything that's said though.

 

I mean to get to the situation he was in last night, arguing with Councillors in the street this far down the line is simply unbelievable and completely wrecks his credibility. He is blaming everyone but himself. It is on his watch that Pittodrie has been crumbling for 15 years. His strategy has failed. Aberdeen FC cannot afford for him to have another bite at the cherry. He has to go.

[Dandy_Don]

I believe the gobshite in charge of the labour group used to be on involved with Cove rangers, got booted out and is now involved with Banks O Dee. Short sighted parochialism at its grandest.

 

I used to miss Aberdeen, I really did, but I have been awa now for about ten years, and with this utter shower in control (again), I am glad i pay no council tax to this contemptable bunch. Its like an abused wife continually returning to the abusive husband. Awful.

 

Snap!

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Can't blame the council? Now there's a statement.

 

Cross party support. Wasn't it all the unionists against the SNP?

 

Whatever, won't it be interesting to find out what the new proposals they are exploring for the land end up being?

[tom_widdows]

Blaming Milne for a planning decision is short sighted as far as i'm concerned.

If he and the others who were behind Calder park are not currently writing to the DPEA then I might be suspiscous but no matter how many experts, consultants etc you call in to help you the planning system in this country is a nightmare.

A building warrant and completion certificate etc can be obtained so long as you are prepared to spend the cash because that is based on rules and regulations. Planning on the other hand is a lottery and all too easy fucked up by outside influence (see Prince Charles' antics).

Ive had Councils send us written assurances that Planning permission would be granted only for the matter to be taken out of a planning officers hands and thrown out with very little justification and what happened last night all seems way too familiar. Arguments about improving the areas, facilities, new jobs etc can easily fall on deaf ears if someone just doesnt like the idea. That is why the appeals board was brought in and why you also have the option to go to the Government for a ruling. This does not always result in nice developments - see Aberdeen Beach - but it does reduce the instances of nimby-ism.

 

Sidenote can anyone confirm if the new Union Terrace Gardens actually went for Planning permission as I dont recall this being mentioned. The original scheme did and it was granted.

 

Next the strategy to move from Pittodrie has come about because the stadium is boxed in - we covered this last April - and asides from the fact the club has no cash to spend on redevelopment (I'll assume there will be someone thinking Milne should pay for it out of his own pocket - Jog on if you have those thoughts. Football is a business not a charity. Find an aberdonian Jack Walker and then we might be onto something) any new stand is immediately covered by the latest building regulations and safety standards so the capacities would be drastically reduced.

If the club were to dare to approach a bank and ask for loan based on building new stands which will result in a reduction in potential income the they would be laughed out of the room.

 

Milne Running down the stadium you say? Asides from the RDS that stadium was in pretty poor nick before he came along and the club has continued to spend money on maintenance to obtain safety certificates for the other 3 stands. They even actually replaced a large chunk of the main stand roof. If he had announced he was putting the club into more debt to rebuild any one of those stands he would have been crucified plus the bank would have told him to get to fuck. Had he announced he was putting the club into debt to buy the old gas main land at the back of the south stand he would have been crucified and the bank would have told him to get to fuck. What would you have down if you were in his shoes? Now remember you are a businessman who managed to build a small construction empire out of pretty much fuck all, not a euromillions lottery winner.

 

Overseeing the club over the most unsuccessful period since the war is his fault you say? Not the advent of the Bosman Ruling removing a major source of income for smaller clubs? Not the massive influx of TV money which means part time english teams can outspend a scottish team from a fairly large city?Not the excessive TV coverage which has reduced crowds for almost every club as fans would rather watch a premiership or spanish game in the pub or house than go to their local clubs game resulting in the double edge sword of the small clubs putting up the prices to make up for the lost income. Not impatient fans demanding the club fork out silly money and wages on mercenary players who dont give a fuck who they play for or how they perform? Not the Governing bodies for reducing funding for youth teams, cancelling reserve leagues, and bending over backwards to suit the needs of two teams? Not the bizarre rule that football managers etc can do a shite job, get sacked but still recieve a massive pay off???

 

If it hadnt been Milne it would have been someone else.

 

[Dandy_Don]

Blaming Milne for a planning decision is short sighted as far as i'm concerned.

If he and the others who were behind Calder park are not currently writing to the DPEA then I might be suspiscous but no matter how many experts, consultants etc you call in to help you the planning system in this country is a nightmare.

A building warrant and completion certificate etc can be obtained so long as you are prepared to spend the cash because that is based on rules and regulations. Planning on the other hand is a lottery and all too easy fucked up by outside influence (see Prince Charles' antics).

Ive had Councils send us written assurances that Planning permission would be granted only for the matter to be taken out of a planning officers hands and thrown out with very little justification and what happened last night all seems way too familiar. Arguments about improving the areas, facilities, new jobs etc can easily fall on deaf ears if someone just doesnt like the idea. That is why the appeals board was brought in and why you also have the option to go to the Government for a ruling. This does not always result in nice developments - see Aberdeen Beach - but it does reduce the instances of nimby-ism.

 

Sidenote can anyone confirm if the new Union Terrace Gardens actually went for Planning permission as I dont recall this being mentioned. The original scheme did and it was granted.

 

Next the strategy to move from Pittodrie has come about because the stadium is boxed in - we covered this last April - and asides from the fact the club has no cash to spend on redevelopment (I'll assume there will be someone thinking Milne should pay for it out of his own pocket - Jog on if you have those thoughts. Football is a business not a charity. Find an aberdonian Jack Walker and then we might be onto something) any new stand is immediately covered by the latest building regulations and safety standards so the capacities would be drastically reduced.

If the club were to dare to approach a bank and ask for loan based on building new stands which will result in a reduction in potential income the they would be laughed out of the room.

 

Milne Running down the stadium you say? Asides from the RDS that stadium was in pretty poor nick before he came along and the club has continued to spend money on maintenance to obtain safety certificates for the other 3 stands. They even actually replaced a large chunk of the main stand roof. If he had announced he was putting the club into more debt to rebuild any one of those stands he would have been crucified plus the bank would have told him to get to fuck. Had he announced he was putting the club into debt to buy the old gas main land at the back of the south stand he would have been crucified and the bank would have told him to get to fuck. What would you have down if you were in his shoes? Now remember you are a businessman who managed to build a small construction empire out of pretty much fuck all, not a euromillions lottery winner.

 

Overseeing the club over the most unsuccessful period since the war is his fault you say? Not the advent of the Bosman Ruling removing a major source of income for smaller clubs? Not the massive influx of TV money which means part time english teams can outspend a scottish team from a fairly large city?Not the excessive TV coverage which has reduced crowds for almost every club as fans would rather watch a premiership or spanish game in the pub or house than go to their local clubs game resulting in the double edge sword of the small clubs putting up the prices to make up for the lost income. Not impatient fans demanding the club fork out silly money and wages on mercenary players who dont give a fuck who they play for or how they perform? Not the Governing bodies for reducing funding for youth teams, cancelling reserve leagues, and bending over backwards to suit the needs of two teams? Not the bizarre rule that football managers etc can do a shite job, get sacked but still recieve a massive pay off???

 

If it hadnt been Milne it would have been someone else.

 

 

One of the best posts I've read on DonsTalk.

 

 

[manc_don]

Very coherently put across Tom. Cannot argue with it at all

 

Sadly, blaming Milne has always been the easy option.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

It always is. Default setting.

 

He may well be right enough but some folk instinctively start pishing into the tent instead of out.

[BigAl]

One of the best posts I've read on DonsTalk.

 

 

 

I'lll go further in that I think that is probably the best post. Lot of thought and knowledge went into that. Mr Widdows I applaud you.

 

P.S You may wish to send a copy of this to Stewart Milne's P.A for future use.........

[glasgow sheep]

Of course it is Calder Park that has been knocked back and not the stadium.  I'm still to hear the reasons for this.  I was under the impression that planning permission had already been granted until the Council Administration decided to hold their own vote on the matter.

Cove Rangers need a new ground if they are to progress anywhere in Scottish Football. The South of the city needs decent facilities. AFC need training facilities that are fit for a supposed top flight club in the 20th Century, never mind the 21st Century.

I can see lots of arguments about whether or not building the Stadium is a good idea but I fail to see any issue surrounding Calder Park.  Therefore until proven otherwise it is council-wanks, Milne and afc -good guys.

[Kowalski]

Dons may consider shire move

 

By David McKay

 

Published: 24/08/2012

 

Aberdeen Football Club bosses have revealed that the team could move out of the city as a dispute over plans for a new stadium continued yesterday.

 

Executive vice-chairman George Yule said officials would now look at options in Aberdeenshire after a council decision on a land agreement at Calder Park, Cove.

 

Aberdeen FC said Wednesday’s vote on the issue – which brings the land back into council control – had effectively killed off hopes of a move to nearby Loirston Loch.

[Superstar Tradesman]

Of course it is Calder Park that has been knocked back and not the stadium.  I'm still to hear the reasons for this.  I was under the impression that planning permission had already been granted until the Council Administration decided to hold their own vote on the matter.

Cove Rangers need a new ground if they are to progress anywhere in Scottish Football. The South of the city needs decent facilities. AFC need training facilities that are fit for a supposed top flight club in the 20th Century, never mind the 21st Century.

I can see lots of arguments about whether or not building the Stadium is a good idea but I fail to see any issue surrounding Calder Park.  Therefore until proven otherwise it is council-wanks, Milne and afc -good guys.

 

I must have been on holibobs when the brainwashing was done.  Thankfully.

 

We're brassed, we've won fuck all, our stadium is crumbling but we plan to build a brand new one out of fairy dust and magic beans.

 

And this is the fault of the council aye?

 

Cuckoo.

 

*snap* You're back in the room.

[glasgow sheep]

 

I must have been on holibobs when the brainwashing was done.  Thankfully.

 

We're brassed, we've won fuck all, our stadium is crumbling but we plan to build a brand new one out of fairy dust and magic beans.

 

And this is the fault of the council aye?

 

Cuckoo.

 

*snap* You're back in the room.

 

I'm not talking about anything else, I'm talking about Calder Park, so yes I'm more inclined to side with AFC on this than the Cooncil which has been repeatedly been shown by a menagerie of cunts

[bloo_toon_red]

Overseeing the club over the most unsuccessful period since the war is his fault you say?

Particularly during the first ten years of his Stewartship, yes.  He appointed managers who squandered large amounts of his cash.  For this he can't particularly be blamed, especially not for putting his money where his mouth is.  But did he, as Chairman, get the best out of his managers?  No, not a single one of them with the notable exception of Jimmy Calderwood.  Managers get sacked for not getting best out of their players, so where does the buck stop when senior managers aren't being properly managed?

 

Stewarty Milne doesn't suddenly become St Stewart because his legacy to the club has been poo-pooed by the council.  He is not to blame for the stadium situation, but his tenure as Chairman of Aberdeen FC has lurched from one disaster to another.  His commendable performances during the Sevco farce during the summer seemed to blind an awful lot of AFC supporters to what went before.  The clout he has as a businessman is a given, but his ability to demand success in any shape or form on the pitch is yet to be proven, and after 15 years at the helm, that spells the end for him I'm afraid.

 

I said in a post during the Sevco debacle that this season should be his absolute last chance to deliver and I stick by that.  Stadium or no stadium, relative success this season is an absolute must if he is to survive.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Stewarty Milne doesn't suddenly become St Stewart because his legacy to the club has been poo-pooed by the council.

 

I don't really think folk are that daft to think that? Are they? Nor that doing the needful over the summer necessarily blots out the memories of past fuck ups.

 

However there are a large number quite prepared to heave into not just Milne but the club and board immediately. I'm a pretty jaundiced cynic at the best of times but can't really see how Milne gets it in the neck for this instantly other than allowing for the usual default setting of some.

 

 

[BigAl]

I don't really think folk are that daft to think that? Are they? Nor that doing the needful over the summer necessarily blots out the memories of past fuck ups.

 

However there are a large number quite prepared to heave into not just Milne but the club and board immediately. I'm a pretty jaundiced cynic at the best of times but can't really see how Milne gets it in the neck for this instantly other than allowing for the usual default setting of some.

 

 

 

You...a jaundiced cynic....... surely not ?

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Well, definitely jaundiced . . . .

[bloo_toon_red]

Well it kind of depends how deep people want to dig. The stadium fiasco doesn't take place in its own small vacuum. If the club go bust, it won't be the council's fault, regardless of their shocking behaviour. Off park/on park are not mutually exclusive of each other. Hibernian FC have redeveloped entire stadium and built a training centre funded in massive part by player transfer fees. During SM's tenure we've sold two players for over £1m, and not by much, ten years apart and not much more besides. We've gone from 3rd to 5th best supported team, we haven't won a trophy, we've reached 2 cup finals, and his sacking of his best manager will haunt him until the day his team lifts a trophy.

 

Collective responsibility/collective failure, all overseen by the man at the top.

 

Point is, all of this is relevant to the situation we face now.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

The club won't go bust though.

 

Hibs stadium, whatever way you want to paint it is IMO shite, built on the cheap for the cheap and for me doesn't represent what they had coming into the club in fees and I'd be guted if that's the quality of stadium we can look forward to.

 

Aye, our on-field performance has been terrible, aside for a couple of seasons. But the long and short of it, the short and long term plans for the club have been shafted by what you yourself call "shocking behaviour" of the council.

 

Yes it's all relevant to some extent but the council would have dunted this if we were top of the fucking league.

 

Yes it'd be interesting to know more about the funding, yes it'd be nice to have been better on the park but this wee fiasco is certainly for the moment at the ACC's door and are cunts until shown otherwise. We already know what Milne has or rather hasn't achieved.

[bloo_toon_red]

Hibs stadium, whatever way you want to paint it is IMO shite, built on the cheap for the cheap and for me doesn't represent what they had coming into the club in fees and I'd be guted if that's the quality of stadium we can look forward to.

 

The quality of their stadium is not the point.  The point is that with in excess of £12m gained in transfer fees over a similar period, they gave themselves options.  If they had to suddenly move from Easter Road, they'd net £18m in their pockets and have £12m to add to the kitty which would very easily pay for a stadium of comparable quality to the one we're supposed to be building without having to go cap in hand to local businessmen, the SFA, ASV & anyone else for their approval of this that and the next thing.

 

By being badly run, the club has limited its own options.  I'm heartened to hear that AFC now intend to enter discussions with the shire, it shows that they're not giving up without a fight.