New stadium thread

[Garlogie_Granite]

Aye, that's a fair point.  The answer i think is that the conversation around Kingsford has become massively polarised in both directions compared to Loirston, somewhat to the detriment of actual debate. It's all gone a bit shouty.

Between the fans I'd say not, though the numbers in favour are far higher for Kongsford, presumably as it's a much better location. Roughly half in favour of Loriston, around 75% for Kingsford.

 

However the difference this time is Cove/Kincorth residents were (rightly) unfazed by a football stadium being built, whereas an angry mob harrassing people going about their business at Westhill shopping centre, creating websites, hijacking the community council, and generally shouting down any pro-stadium voices at open meetings, has seen a much darker scaremongering element emerge this time.

[RicoS321]

Between the fans I'd say not, though the numbers in favour are far higher for Kongsford, presumably as it's a much better location. Roughly half in favour of Loriston, around 75% for Kingsford.

 

But it's nae a much better location though, is it? Perhaps for you, but for the benefit of the club and the city it definitely isn't. I didn't like Loirston, but it's much closer to the centre of town, is actually in Aberdeen and had the potential to be accessed by train. The rest of the factors remain even (bus journeys etc). Given the bypass, it would have added virtually nothing to the journey from those from the North (10 minutes at most along the Southern leg, probably less) and those from the South ten minutes better off.

 

Really the only difference is the train station potential, which is fairly significant in favour of Loirston I'd say.

 

It must be more than that. Perhaps the training facilities all being shown in one shiny new development, even though the plan was to build in another location? Perhaps they couldn't see envisage the bypass?

 

As I say, it doesn't make much sense to me, I dinna get it.

[Garlogie_Granite]

But it's nae a much better location though, is it? Perhaps for you, but for the benefit of the club and the city it definitely isn't. I didn't like Loirston, but it's much closer to the centre of town,

I saw a lot of complaints about the traffic on Wellington road and thereabouts when Loirston was mooted.

 

Now that disappears on the A944, it simply doesn't have the same volume of traffic outwith rush hour, so maybe that's the answer?

[Edinburghdon]

But it's nae a much better location though, is it? Perhaps for you, but for the benefit of the club and the city it definitely isn't. I didn't like Loirston, but it's much closer to the centre of town, is actually in Aberdeen and had the potential to be accessed by train. The rest of the factors remain even (bus journeys etc). Given the bypass, it would have added virtually nothing to the journey from those from the North (10 minutes at most along the Southern leg, probably less) and those from the South ten minutes better off.

 

Really the only difference is the train station potential, which is fairly significant in favour of Loirston I'd say.

 

It must be more than that. Perhaps the training facilities all being shown in one shiny new development, even though the plan was to build in another location? Perhaps they couldn't see envisage the bypass?

 

As I say, it doesn't make much sense to me, I dinna get it.

 

Provided the train station ever materialises then I'd agree Loriston is better. Doubt there's any improvement as far as walking goes despite being closer but a train would swing it.

 

Would rule out a training facility on site, no big deal from an operational perspective it just means the club would require additional funds.

[RicoS321]

Provided the train station ever materialises then I'd agree Loriston is better. Doubt there's any improvement as far as walking goes despite being closer but a train would swing it.

 

Would rule out a training facility on site, no big deal from an operational perspective it just means the club would require additional funds.

 

To answer ye baith. I'm asking why people were for it, not necessarily why it was better or not for the club. I don't think traffic on Wellington Road was really an issue, given you can go up Wellington Road, up past Northsound or out the A90 and back in past the Loch and the bypass for the teuchters. Also, I don't suppose folk gave a fuck whether it would cost £2M extra or whatever, when you're dealing with such a large figure anyway I don't believe it'd matter to a supporter.

 

Maybe I'm just forgetting how many people were in favour of Loirston? Maybe a lot of folks were all for it. It just seems there is a lot more support for something that is demonstrably worse, albeit not by much. Could it be, perhaps, that folk were broken by the Loirston plan and resigned to the idea of the new stadium. So much so that when it eventually got scrapped they were just annoyed and willing to accept anything that came in its place? Some sort of stadium-fatigue-syndrome. That's it. I've diagnosed it. You're all sick fucks. Apart from 100%AK, who is eminently sensible.

[Edinburghdon]

To answer ye baith. I'm asking why people were for it, not necessarily why it was better or not for the club. I don't think traffic on Wellington Road was really an issue, given you can go up Wellington Road, up past Northsound or out the A90 and back in past the Loch and the bypass for the teuchters. Also, I don't suppose folk gave a fuck whether it would cost £2M extra or whatever, when you're dealing with such a large figure anyway I don't believe it'd matter to a supporter.

 

Maybe I'm just forgetting how many people were in favour of Loirston? Maybe a lot of folks were all for it. It just seems there is a lot more support for something that is demonstrably worse, albeit not by much. Could it be, perhaps, that folk were broken by the Loirston plan and resigned to the idea of the new stadium. So much so that when it eventually got scrapped they were just annoyed and willing to accept anything that came in its place? Some sort of stadium-fatigue-syndrome. That's it. I've diagnosed it. You're all sick fucks. Apart from 100%AK, who is eminently sensible.

 

Aye sorry my last reply was totally off on a tangent. Suspect you're right about the number of folk for Loriston compared to Kingsford, suspect it's now a case of "oh it'll do" as options are pretty much exhausted rather than genuinely favouring Kingsford over Loriston.

 

Not sure Loriston is demonstratably better than kingsford unless the train station does go ahead, much and such the same for me but agree the station changes it as far as I'm concerned.

[OxfordDon]

But it's nae a much better location though, is it? Perhaps for you, but for the benefit of the club and the city it definitely isn't. I didn't like Loirston, but it's much closer to the centre of town, is actually in Aberdeen and had the potential to be accessed by train. The rest of the factors remain even (bus journeys etc). Given the bypass, it would have added virtually nothing to the journey from those from the North (10 minutes at most along the Southern leg, probably less) and those from the South ten minutes better off.

 

Really the only difference is the train station potential, which is fairly significant in favour of Loirston I'd say.

 

It must be more than that. Perhaps the training facilities all being shown in one shiny new development, even though the plan was to build in another location? Perhaps they couldn't see envisage the bypass?

 

As I say, it doesn't make much sense to me, I dinna get it.

 

I'd agree, i doubt its because Kingsford is better than Loirston.  The club themselves clearly preferred Loirston as it was their first choice all along, Kingsford only became an option after Loirston rather dramatically fell through.

 

(However, before 100%AK jumps on this, the club has also made pretty clear that in their view Loirston is no longer an option, and Kings Links/Pittodrie were non-starters.  So the merits and issues with Kingsford are what we examine now, and try to resolve if possible).

 

In terms of increased support:

 

You could maybe argue that there's an element of fans realising that options are always going to be more limited than they would like, and are tempering their objections accordingly.

 

You could equally argue an element of fans getting fed up with the length of the process, and just want it concluded.

 

Or, as i mentioned, that the volume seems to have gone up in the debate, making it more polarised and both sides more obvious.

 

It does seem unlikely that the increased support is due to it being a better option though.

 

edit - ach, you've both just posted pretty much the same as i was typing this 

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Its always been a polarised topic, and it is for many.  George Yule and AFC have had hundreds of letters about this stadium question even more recently due to the whole thing being very clearly in trouble.

 

This AFC Community Body - this is done nothing for them Kingsford.  Bad publicity.

 

For what its worth Kingsford means nothing to me neither does Loriston means anything and I know lots felt same way.  Basically IMO the club should not be leaving Pittodrie - under any circumstances.  The place needs redeveloped.

 

Would Newcastle United fans (for example) want to leave St James park?  Would Liverpool fans want to leave Anfield?

 

Not really - these places are at the heart of the club.

 

Its like anything in life, there is a diverse range of views.  Those like me on one polar and others on other side that would do anything to move to Kingsford.

 

In the middle though there are lots of people getting pissed off at this Kingsford fiasco.  There are clearly bad noises now around the whole thing (people are not stupid they can read between the bluster on here) and I can guarantee you that Derek McInnes is getting more pissed off by the day.

 

[RicoS321]

I can guarantee you that Derek McInnes is getting more pissed off by the day.

 

No you can't.

[Edinburghdon]

 

For what its worth Kingsford means nothing to me neither does Loriston means anything and I know lots felt same way.  Basically IMO the club should not be leaving Pittodrie - under any circumstances.  The place needs redeveloped.

 

 

Except it can't be, not to anywhere near the level or capacity we need. That's not based on wat the club have said, you just need to read the simply put professional opinions on the couple of people on here with first hand experience of stadium planning/design.

 

Christ I really wish the club would just release their back up for this as it'll finally put the ridiculous notion that the existing site is big enough for a modern stadium to bed. 

[OxfordDon]

For what its worth Kingsford means nothing to me neither does Loriston means anything and I know lots felt same way.  Basically IMO the club should not be leaving Pittodrie - under any circumstances.  The place needs redeveloped.

 

Tip for the future:  name your account "100% Pro Pittodrie" so that you don't come across as needlessly obstructive.  Expend all of your energy into coming up with feasible suggestions that make Pittodrie more viable and attractive than the other options. 

 

After all, you don't want folk to get the wrong end of the stick, and think you don't give a damn about Pittodrie but are just out to block the Kingsford option at all costs, do you?

[Dunty]

To answer ye baith. I'm asking why people were for it, not necessarily why it was better or not for the club. I don't think traffic on Wellington Road was really an issue, given you can go up Wellington Road, up past Northsound or out the A90 and back in past the Loch and the bypass for the teuchters. Also, I don't suppose folk gave a fuck whether it would cost £2M extra or whatever, when you're dealing with such a large figure anyway I don't believe it'd matter to a supporter.

 

Maybe I'm just forgetting how many people were in favour of Loirston? Maybe a lot of folks were all for it. It just seems there is a lot more support for something that is demonstrably worse, albeit not by much. Could it be, perhaps, that folk were broken by the Loirston plan and resigned to the idea of the new stadium. So much so that when it eventually got scrapped they were just annoyed and willing to accept anything that came in its place? Some sort of stadium-fatigue-syndrome. That's it. I've diagnosed it. You're all sick fucks. Apart from 100%AK, who is eminently sensible.

 

 

The club's mistake with selling Loirston to the fans was they never went into much detail, even through the application stage. Their PR was poor. There was also no talk of a train station. It also didn't help that the club wasn't as successful at the time either on or off the pitch.

 

Even so, I think it was around 50/50.

 

The difference now is:

 

- fans beginning to accept we can't rebuild Pittodrie

- more detailed plans. We've actually got images of inside the stadium, the facilities and specifics it will have (stadium bar, fanzone, musuem, etc). They didn't actually have that in the Loirston plans, just a seating capacity and the outside shell.

- the club's PR has been better. Yule doing most of the talking rather than Milne. Players and manager coming out in support.

 

A lot of people say Loirston would be a disaster but don't really understand why. If you pushed them on it they would probably come to realise it's just as good if not better than Kingsford.

[manc_don]

 

The club's mistake with selling Loirston to the fans was they never went into much detail, even through the application stage. Their PR was poor. There was also no talk of a train station. It also didn't help that the club wasn't as successful at the time either on or off the pitch.

 

Even so, I think it was around 50/50.

 

The difference now is:

 

- fans beginning to accept we can't rebuild Pittodrie

- more detailed plans. We've actually got images of inside the stadium, the facilities and specifics it will have (stadium bar, fanzone, musuem, etc). They didn't actually have that in the Loirston plans, just a seating capacity and the outside shell.

- the club's PR has been better. Yule doing most of the talking rather than Milne. Players and manager coming out in support.

 

A lot of people say Loirston would be a disaster but don't really understand why. If you pushed them on it they would probably come to realise it's just as good if not better than Kingsford.

 

I'd agree with that, club never really had things in order and a lot of folk needed convincing. I'd be open to it if they guaranteed a station but that costs a fuck load of money and probably not worth it for shitrail. I just want some training facilities and a new stadium it's gone on far too long.

[Edinburghdon]

I'd agree with that, club never really had things in order and a lot of folk needed convincing. I'd be open to it if they guaranteed a station but that costs a fuck load of money and probably not worth it for shitrail. I just want some training facilities and a new stadium it's gone on far too long.

 

A believe a new station at cove is proposed as part of the city deal. Whether it happens is a different story, but I'm fairly certain it's been proposed.

[manc_don]

A believe a new station at cove is proposed as part of the city deal. Whether it happens is a different story, but I'm fairly certain it's been proposed.

 

Aye, one thing planning. Another thing doing.  A train station would make all the difference to kingsford too (I know the train actually passes through Loirston)

[jess]

Now admittedly he does say that if proper facilities are not found then the long term future of the club is at stake, no denying that... it's hardly a hysterical "if the kingsford plans arent passed the club is dying" though is it?

 

“To be honest, unless we move this club into the 21st century with proper facilities, there's a very real danger those fans walking up King Street in the long term may not have a team to support."

 

Come on. 

 

Ironically we wouldn't be walking up King Street, we wouldn't be walking and we wouldn't have a club to support in the city.

[Tyrant]

Got any plans to produce any proof of club officials stating that the club will die if we don't leave Pittodrie?

 

Starting to lose patience with you in all honesty.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Got any plans to produce any proof of club officials stating that the club will die if we don't leave Pittodrie?

 

Starting to lose patience with you in all honesty.

 

Hi Tyrant,

 

Hope well bud.

 

I have already (on this thread) given 3 quotes from executives at AFC which were 12 years apart.  In each of these quotes (from Mssrs Yule, Milne) they said that the club will 'die' and fans will 'not club have a club to follow' if the new stadiums does not come about.

 

These are quotes from Milne and Yule (not me) - they said it.

 

The problem with these quotes is I want to assure you is that there is a difference between words and outcomes.  The club will not die and in fact the club (given there is a 12 year gap between the statements) has never really been in a healthier state.

 

There is no chance if Kingsford fails the club will die.

 

Its called propaganda.

 

So there you have it, no need to lose patience the quotes already appear on this thread.

 

That is about the best I can do mate unless you want MP3 recordings of them 'actually' saying these things - is that what you want?

 

 

[Edinburghdon]

Hi Tyrant,

 

Hope well bud.

 

I have already (on this thread) given 3 quotes from executives at AFC which were 12 years apart.  In each of these quotes (from Mssrs Yule, Milne) they said that the club will 'die' and fans will 'not club have a club to follow' if the new stadiums does not come about.

 

These are quotes from Milne and Yule (not me) - they said it.

 

The problem with these quotes is I want to assure you is that there is a difference between words and outcomes.  The club will not die and in fact the club (given there is a 12 year gap between the statements) has never really been in a healthier state.

 

There is no chance if Kingsford fails the club will die.

 

Its called propaganda.

 

So there you have it, no need to lose patience the quotes already appear on this thread.

 

That is about the best I can do mate unless you want MP3 recordings of them 'actually' saying these things - is that what you want?

 

Two of those statements say nothing of the sort and the other is borderline at best. Try reading them properly.

 

Tiresome.

[Tyrant]

ED is correct. The quotes say nothing of the sort. It'd be good for your credibility if you could just admit that you're wrong on that small front and concede that you may have exaggerated. I'm on your side here. I'd have loved if you were here contributing rational, reasoned and plausible arguments rather than hysteria and fabricated exaggerations. I too am against a stadium out the road (be it Lorriston, Kingsford or Blackdog) but I do now accept that the ship has sailed on anything realistically being possible at or near the current stadium.

[jess]

Well it's good to see Yule and the club come out and immediately correct the headline and sub headline which say

 

Aberdeen could cease to exist if £50m stadium move fails warns club vice-chairman

 

George Yule says there is a danger Dons fans will no longer have a team to support if plan doesn’t get the go-ahead.

 

to put to rest any such nonsense, because that's definitely not what he was implying when he said 'they may not have a team to support'.

 

One example of people defending something staring them in the face just because the WANKS have said it.

 

Here was the original full quote

 

Could it cast doubts on the future of Aberdeen?

 

Yeh I think in the long term it would. Absolutely. I'm on record as saying when people have said to me 'what about the whole city centre experience with fans walking up King Street to come to the game, and the pubs and golf clubs enjoying business off the back of that.' I say 'well, I've been in business long enough to know that businesses have got to look after themselves not just overly rely on others as the likes of the golf clubs have done. To be honest, unless we move this club into the 21st century with proper facilities there's a very real danger that those fans walking up King Street in the long term may not have a team to support.

 

What a completely out of touch cunt.

 

What does anyone see improving by moving the stadium out there? Bigger crowds ? Bigger away crowds? More atmosphere ? Ticket prices? Winning more at home ? A more unwelcoming cauldron hated by the huns and tims where we can beat anyone on our day?

[tom_widdows]

What does anyone see improving by moving the stadium out there? Bigger crowds ? Bigger away crowds? More atmosphere ? Ticket prices? Winning more at home ? A more unwelcoming cauldron hated by the huns and tims where we can beat anyone on our day?

 

Bigger crowds - Who knows? Should the team suddenly win the league and go back to the days of Fergie them perhaps distance is no object.

Knowing you wont get frostbite or soaking wet while straining to see past a fence, supporting pillar, or some random who wont sit down from a seat which is either bolted down to a former terrace or a plastic replacement for one first installed before the first world war and having the option to buy snacks & drinks prepared in modern facilities. Suddenly the £21-25.00 per ticket doesnt seem quite so bad.

 

Bigger away crowds? - EH? Are you a Kilmarnock board member or one of Doncaster & Reagans cronies? AFCs priority is to their own fans and the business model is thankfully not based on getting 4 OF away crowds a season.

I presume you are aware the club cut the OF allocations a couple of seasons back so they now get the same as everyone else.

 

More Atmosphere Created/ more unwelcoming cauldron? - A purpose built fully enclosed arena as opposed to a mishmash of stands of different heights one of which isn't even fully covered.

Yeah I can see why you are having trouble understanding this 

You want to find out about the acoustics of Pittodrie, take a trip into the middle of the pitch on a match day and try to see if you can understand to the PA announcements.

You may think you are in a cauldron of noise in the RDS whilst your mate sat in the Main stand thinks its so quiet they can choose to listen to an arguing couple 6 rows behind them.

 

Ticket Prices? - No one knows the answer to this. Supply and demand will have a factor as will club expenses. Anyone claiming the new stadium automatically equals more expensive tickets with the evidence currently available is scaremongering.

Increasing maintenance costs for a wooden/ possibly asbestos ridden main stand and a sinking/cracking south stand on the other hand.

 

Winning more at home? - Home teams generally win more often at home because bugger me if they don't play at their HOME stadium more than the AWAY team.

However a shit home team on the other hand

17 years ago we finished bottom of the league and only won 10 of 23 competitive home games (only 6 league games) and lost 6-0 & 5-1 (twice) to everyone's favourite glasgow teams.  Did anyone blame Pittodrie for that?

Would it have happened in a modern stadium with modern training facilities? Maybes aye, Maybes naw.

Is anyone suggesting Pittodrie is the main factor in this seasons home form?

 

There is being negative and there is basically trolling. Coming on here and just laughing or slagging the clubs attempts to get a better stadium rather than pointing out actual alternatives falls into the latter.

And don't re-start the broken record of 'pittodrie can easily be redeveloped to a modern 20000 capacity stadium' unless you can prove you work or have ever worked for the likes of Arup, Miller partnership, Herzog & De Meuron, Foster Associates or Populous.

Do that and the floor shall be open for your presentation.

 

[tlg1903]

What tom said.

[jess]

Bigger crowds - Who knows? Should the team suddenly win the league and go back to the days of Fergie them perhaps distance is no object.

Knowing you wont get frostbite or soaking wet while straining to see past a fence, supporting pillar, or some random who wont sit down from a seat which is either bolted down to a former terrace or a plastic replacement for one first installed before the first world war and having the option to buy snacks & drinks prepared in modern facilities. Suddenly the £21-25.00 per ticket doesnt seem quite so bad.

 

You can get all of the above in parts of Pittodrie which are empty.

 

Bigger away crowds? - EH? Are you a Kilmarnock board member or one of Doncaster & Reagans cronies? AFCs priority is to their own fans and the business model is thankfully not based on getting 4 OF away crowds a season.

I presume you are aware the club cut the OF allocations a couple of seasons back so they now get the same as everyone else.

 

Often thrown about claims the small away supports are due to the facilities. Other team's forums are actually full of them saying there'd be no point going and they're not getting a shuttle bus.

 

 

More Atmosphere Created/ more unwelcoming cauldron? - A purpose built fully enclosed arena as opposed to a mishmash of stands of different heights one of which isn't even fully covered.

Yeah I can see why you are having trouble understanding this 

You want to find out about the acoustics of Pittodrie, take a trip into the middle of the pitch on a match day and try to see if you can understand to the PA announcements.

You may think you are in a cauldron of noise in the RDS whilst your mate sat in the Main stand thinks its so quiet they can choose to listen to an arguing couple 6 rows behind them.

 

When everyone sings there's a great atmosphere and when they don't there isn't any at all. Everything else is a myth. It's not going to change no matter what shape or size anything is.

 

Ticket Prices? - No one knows the answer to this. Supply and demand will have a factor as will club expenses. Anyone claiming the new stadium automatically equals more expensive tickets with the evidence currently available is scaremongering.

Increasing maintenance costs for a wooden/ possibly asbestos ridden main stand and a sinking/cracking south stand on the other hand.

 

Can they get cheaper was the point. The answer is they won't. They've said they'll be adding to them for parking and buses.

 

Winning more at home? - Home teams generally win more often at home because bugger me if they don't play at their HOME stadium more than the AWAY team.

However a shit home team on the other hand

17 years ago we finished bottom of the league and only won 10 of 23 competitive home games (only 6 league games) and lost 6-0 & 5-1 (twice) to everyone's favourite glasgow teams.  Did anyone blame Pittodrie for that?

Would it have happened in a modern stadium with modern training facilities? Maybes aye, Maybes naw.

Is anyone suggesting Pittodrie is the main factor in this seasons home form?

 

I know all that. I'm looking for the case for moving stadium. It seems to be, to save money on maintenance and kitchens and the rest we don't have a clue and could be a disaster.

 

There is being negative and there is basically trolling. Coming on here and just laughing or slagging the clubs attempts to get a better stadium rather than pointing out actual alternatives falls into the latter.

And don't re-start the broken record of 'pittodrie can easily be redeveloped to a modern 20000 capacity stadium' unless you can prove you work or have ever worked for the likes of Arup, Miller partnership, Herzog & De Meuron, Foster Associates or Populous.

Do that and the floor shall be open for your presentation.

 

I don't think it needs to be 20,000 or anywhere near that but understand we have to have a minimum of this due to the cock measuring contest with Hearts and Hibs and we like 7,000 empty seats for 34 games a season.

 

I think something like Maribor's stadium is more suited to us, perhaps with a large Bayer Leverkusen type corporate end.

 

The cost of a 21,000 Links stadium was to be £42m.

[Edinburghdon]

I know all that. I'm looking for the case for moving stadium.

 

How about... erm... having to move as redeveloping the existing site to anywhere near the same capacity is impossible?