New stadium thread

[Edinburghdon]

Yes, Aberdeen City Council will 'just let Aberdeen FC have a stadium' just because they want to.

 

Doesn't work that way mate.

 

Fun times ahead.

 

 

Because that's exactly what was said of course...

 

That dreadful pitch is looking particularly good today by the way 

[tom_widdows]

Windsor Park

 

 

 

Again you still haven't found one with a similar situation to pittodrie.

 

Not a single stand at Windsor park backs onto a public road and all fan access and egress is from controlled zones around the stadium before entering public roads.

The Windsor park redevelopment also had the advantage of the 3 redeveloped sides not being boxed in by domestic properties.

 

 

 

 

[jess]

Again you still haven't found one with a similar situation to pittodrie.

 

Not a single stand at Windsor park backs onto a public road and all fan access and egress is from controlled zones around the stadium before entering public roads.

The Windsor park redevelopment also had the advantage of the 3 redeveloped sides not being boxed in by domestic properties.

 

It would be exactly the same at Pittodrie with space behind all except the main?

 

If there's a solution to this then I do not have a clue how you can't apply the same thing.

 

 

 

[RicoS321]

It would be exactly the same at Pittodrie with space behind all except the main?

 

If there's a solution to this then I do not have a clue how you can't apply the same thing.

 

No. It's nae. There's not a bunch of flats behind their equivalent Souther. The light-blocker from their Souther, I expect, will nae be cause the same issue as ours because it's nae residential. I'm making this assumption, as the cooncil have just allowed a glass box monstrosity to be placed within half a metre of an historic building in our very own city centre. I suspect that, had that historic building been residential, the cooncil would still have found a way to pass the abomination at Marischal college.

[jess]

No. It's nae. There's not a bunch of flats behind their equivalent Souther. The light-blocker from their Souther, I expect, will nae be cause the same issue as ours because it's nae residential. I'm making this assumption, as the cooncil have just allowed a glass box monstrosity to be placed within half a metre of an historic building in our very own city centre. I suspect that, had that historic building been residential, the cooncil would still have found a way to pass the abomination at Marischal college.

I don't see that being the case.  It would be further away for a start. The other option is a much closer house looking into their window.

 

 

 

 

[tom_widdows]

I don't see that being the case.  It would be further away for a start. The other option is a much closer house looking into their window.

 

 

 

I think you may have misread the 3D image if you think any of the proposed houses are closer to the existing houses than the stadium.

Either way before anyone can even consider building houses on the Pittodrie site they have to submit a detailed planning application (similar amount of information to the Kingsford stadium application).

Planning permission in principle only means the council have said 'yes this area could be used for up to 350 houses.

Also what point are you trying to make by posting Generic 3D visuals from an approved 'Planning permission in principle' application?

Are you suggesting that the locals would rather have a football stadium on their doorstep as opposed to brand new housing and green spaces?

If the club does relocated and Pittodrie is turned into houses the house prices in that area will jump and the residents won't have to put up with restricted parking on matchdays or the potential risk having 20000 people suddenly decend on your doorstep every second weekend.

 

Anyway on the subject of daylighting problems with stadiums this is an example of when football clubs fail to take it into consideration and lose in court.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RicoS321]

That looks ace.

[Garlogie_Granite]

That looks ace.

[tom_widdows]

This picture shows what they were replacing. Note the difference in height.

 

[jess]

I think you may have misread the 3D image if you think any of the proposed houses are closer to the existing houses than the stadium.

Either way before anyone can even consider building houses on the Pittodrie site they have to submit a detailed planning application (similar amount of information to the Kingsford stadium application).

Planning permission in principle only means the council have said 'yes this area could be used for up to 350 houses.

Also what point are you trying to make by posting Generic 3D visuals from an approved 'Planning permission in principle' application?

Are you suggesting that the locals would rather have a football stadium on their doorstep as opposed to brand new housing and green spaces?

If the club does relocated and Pittodrie is turned into houses the house prices in that area will jump and the residents won't have to put up with restricted parking on matchdays or the potential risk having 20000 people suddenly decend on your doorstep every second weekend.

 

Anyway on the subject of daylighting problems with stadiums this is an example of when football clubs fail to take it into consideration and lose in court.

 

 

The proposed houses are right on the edge of the land at all sides in the masterplan.

 

It could even be bigger student accommodation all over. Look at the height of most developments in that area.

 

Yes I think many would prefer a stadium. The place would lose its character and, from comments defending against the NKS marauding pisshose fans myth, many on pittodrie street and merkland road enjoy living next to it and the life.

 

If we really wanted a solution we would find at least one. We could actually consult with the locals. We could try working with the council rather than making them an enemy, playing the victim and trying to bully everyone into accepting it.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

There are no houses across from Main Stand at Pittodrie Street (the council houses stop where the 'car park' starts.

 

As regards Pittodrie being 'hemmed in' - simply not true.  I drove down to Pittodrie yesterday.  Walked down to RDS and measured how far there is between the start of the RDS and that pavement on Golf Road.

 

Earlier this week I drove past Tynecastle. In building the HMFC new stand the JT's have much LESS room to develop than Aberdeen FC have.

 

Stands these days are built UP and out - look at Tynecastle and what they are doing.

 

In that space ALONE (behind the RDS) there is enough space to build a total new stand for fans - As in there is space for spectators, new dressing rooms, corporate suites, conference rooms, media zones and offices for AFCommunity Children.

 

As to what someone else said - Eion Jess - the club making enemies - aye! Funny way to lead a project.  They have chosen an unfortunate means of progressing this centre piece strategic project i.e. the Kingsford stadium.  Alienating communities, nearby groups of people and pissing off fans (even those desperate to see club move on are getting pissed off with failed initiatives) while all the while creating mythical scenarios that there is 'no room' to rebuild & redevelop. 

 

You have to be kidding?  Pittodrie has to the least traditionally hemmed in stadium around in the SPFL?  Tynecastle is hemmed in like sardine can - Pittodrie there is loads of room!

 

As regards 'utility' lines. Bollocks - its a readily technological enabled world.  Within a few months a new Pittodrie can be routed and technologically enabled.  If the club cannot organising re-route flushing toilets then - no hope.

 

They keep saying Kingsford is based on Ashton Gate - that is hemmed in FFS!. Did not stop them redeveloping. 

 

And more - after walking down to the RDS I then went in a gate to the left of the RDS (wide open) behind the SS and the masses of space is incredible.  There is so much space to the left of the RDS and behind SS (where away fans walk in) it makes the 'hemmed in' argument illogical. 

 

Hemmed in by a graveyard?  There is loads of room before you even reach the graveyard.

 

Speaking of 'evidence' (big theme on here) just where is the 'evidence' from the club i.e. workings, plans as to why Pittodrie cannot be redeveloped?

 

Eh, where is it?  I cannot see it.

 

We are stakeholders - where is the evidence our home cannot be rebuilt?  Or do the club just treat fans in the same way as they treat Westhill residents and ACC - with dismissive arrogant disdain?  Just accept what we tell you and shut up.

 

Eh, where are the workings AFC?  Where are the plans - lets see them George.  PROVE Pittodrie cannot be rebuilt!

 

Prove it.

[tom_widdows]

There are no houses across from Main Stand at Pittodrie Street (the council houses stop where the 'car park' starts.

What about 50% of the South Stand and the entire Merkland Stand?

 

As regards Pittodrie being 'hemmed in' - simply not true.  I drove down to Pittodrie yesterday.  Walked down to RDS and measured how far there is between the start of the RDS and that pavement on Golf Road.

 

In that space ALONE (behind the RDS) there is enough space to build a total new stand for fans - As in there is space for spectators, new dressing rooms, corporate suites, conference rooms, media zones and offices for AFCommunity Children.

You mean the Emergency Concourse required to hold minimum 6220 fans plus Emergency Vehicles and installed as part of the Stand's Construction in 1994?

 

Earlier this week I drove past Tynecastle. In building the HMFC new stand the JT's have much LESS room to develop than Aberdeen FC have.

 

Stands these days are built UP and out - look at Tynecastle and what they are doing.

 

You have to be kidding?  Pittodrie has to the least traditionally hemmed in stadium around in the SPFL?  Tynecastle is hemmed in like sardine can - Pittodrie there is loads of room!

 

 

I deduce from this that you have not read or are choosing to ignore any of my comments about how the redeveloped Tynecastle works or how it was possible.

 

Pittodrie Main Stand

 

Backing directly onto a public roads.....

 

Tynecastle Main Stand

 

as opposed to backing onto a carpark, Club Shop & Admin Office, Supporters Club, and a Council Run Nursery the latter of which is being relocated as part of the New Stand works.

 

Loads of Room you say?

 

As regards 'utility' lines. Bollocks - its a readily technological enabled world.  Within a few months a new Pittodrie can be routed and technologically enabled.  If the club cannot organising re-route flushing toilets then - no hope.

What are you talking about?

 

They keep saying Kingsford is based on Ashton Gate - that is hemmed in FFS!. Did not stop them redeveloping. 

Who keeps saying Kingsford is Based on Ashton Gate?

 

And more - after walking down to the RDS I then went in a gate to the left of the RDS (wide open) behind the SS and the masses of space is incredible.  There is so much space to the left of the RDS and behind SS (where away fans walk in) it makes the 'hemmed in' argument illogical. 

 

Hemmed in by a graveyard?  There is loads of room before you even reach the graveyard.

As with the RDS that section of the Ground is not an Issue. The Issues are the Sections which back onto Merkland Lane & Pittodrie Street. Two Roads which enclose more than 50% of the Stadium.

The graveyard is totally irrelevant. The New Flats between the South Stand and Graveyard are not.

 

Speaking of 'evidence' (big theme on here) just where is the 'evidence' from the club i.e. workings, plans as to why Pittodrie cannot be redeveloped?

 

Eh, where is it?  I cannot see it.

 

We are stakeholders - where is the evidence our home cannot be rebuilt?  Or do the club just treat fans in the same way as they treat Westhill residents and ACC - with dismissive arrogant disdain?  Just accept what we tell you and shut up.

 

Eh, where are the workings AFC?  Where are the plans - lets see them George.  PROVE Pittodrie cannot be rebuilt!

 

Prove it.

No one has said Pittodrie cannot be redeveloped. The have said it cannot be redeveloped to a 20000 capacity.

A Large chunk of this thread has been about this but as with your Tynecastle comments I deduce you either havent read them or are chosing to ignore them.

 

Speaking of Evidence though. How about those Alternative Sites the Council have offered the Club?

[Garlogie_Granite]

 

If we really wanted a solution we would find at least one. We could actually consult with the locals. We could try working with the council rather than making them an enemy, playing the victim and trying to bully everyone into accepting it.

Seriously? Public consultation event at 4 Mile, where Dons reps were barracked and verbally assaulted. Two, yes TWO  Public consultations at the Westhill Inn, and finally an exhibition at Pittodrie, which WECC were specifically invited to, and which everyone was made aware of at their big NO meeting in November (where supporters of the plan were also loudly barracked).

 

There was more than enough public consultation, one thing which the club cannot with any seriousness be charged with. 

[Garlogie_Granite]

 

We are stakeholders - where is the evidence our home cannot be rebuilt?  Or do the club just treat fans in the same way as they treat Westhill residents and ACC - with dismissive arrogant disdain?  Just accept what we tell you and shut up.

 

Westhill and Kingswells communities have had three exhibitions on their doorsteps to listen to their views. Plans have been changed based upon those views, most (imo) to the detriment of the club & stadium, such as lowering the height the stadium will go to, which will have a knock on effect on the shallowness of the stands.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Yes, that is the attitude. Westhill people have been appeased by AFC as the height of build has been 'lowered'.

 

Honestly, absolutely f-ing desperate.

 

What is it - 600 car park spaces in Arnhall or wherever it is.

 

By the way, your 'roadshows' - pile of utter garbage.  Half of the comments were made up by AFc staff as they went along.

 

Kingsford is a pile of horse shit - pardon the pun. 

 

 

[Edinburghdon]

As regards Pittodrie being 'hemmed in' - simply not true.  I drove down to Pittodrie yesterday.  Walked down to RDS and measured how far there is between the start of the RDS and that pavement on Golf Road.

 

Earlier this week I drove past Tynecastle. In building the HMFC new stand the JT's have much LESS room to develop than Aberdeen FC have.

 

 

 

Aye, of course you did...

 

[Blurredlines]

How did Hibs get planning to redevelope Easter Road with all the flats surrounding it?

[OxfordDon]

argh.

[OxfordDon]

Hibs redeveloped only one stand - East stand - into the carpark behind it..

 

 

 

 

Hearts are redeveloping only one stand - the Main Stand - into the carpark in front of it (and knocking down buildings they own).

 

 

 

 

We need to replace the whole stadium, and we don't have a handily-placed carpark, or buildings we own that we could demolish.

 

 

 

Anyway, there's the layouts for you all - no more need to drive down and pace out distances, or try and judge closeness of buildings by eye or memory.

 

Feel free to come up with creative solutions within the space we do have to work with - none of us actually want to move unless we have to (i say us, i'm nae even in the country) but so far a viable, achievable, affordable solution has eluded us all, so good luck to you and if you find one be sure to let George Yule know.

[tom_widdows]

At the risk of really chucking the grenade in I have actually worked out a very basic layout for a redeveloped Pittodrie using a Site Plan downloaded from an old application.

 

OS Maps are good but can be slightly off but this is the breakdown I have worked out based on the steepest stand gradient (34degrees), minimum aisle widths, The new stands being the the same distance from the Boundary lines, and before the really complicated aspect of removing seats to allow for vomitories, corporate facilities. I also have not worked out a section for a redeveloped south stand which would need to house modern changing rooms, media facilites, medical rooms, staff facilities, offices, boardrooms, vehicle access (club & emergency) as well as the fan facilities (toilets, snack bars etc). The amount of digging out/ retention around the south stand carpark to get the new club facilites/ emergency vehicle access to a redeveloped south stand could be a bit scary.

 

Anyway the breakdown so far is as follows

 

New Main Stand - 1798 (Average 198 seats per row)

New Merkland Stand - 2193 (Average 129 seats per row)

New (simplistic) South Stand - 2840 (Average 198 seats per row)

Existing RDS - 6200

 

TOTAL - 13,031

 

I did not appreciate the problem retaining the RDS causes when installing a pitch which will ensure long term compliance with UEFA and should the opportunity actually arise mean the club did not have any issues with playing champions league football.

The existing pitch is 110yards (100.5m) x 72yards (66m) and is very close to the south & Main stand perimeter tracks (about 1m of grass before you hit the sand).

UEFAs max pitch size is 120yards (110m) x 80yards (73m) so it would be stupid not to install this size.

For player safety the pitch should extend more than 1m beyond the touchlines (I have allowed for 5m) and then there is the perimeter track (I have allowed for 5m again).

In doing this the pitch area (grass+tracks) increases from approx 79m x 121m to 95m x 130m.

Centering the pitch on the RDS reduces the main, south & Merkland stand depths by 8m each.

Because of the proximity of Merkland Lane & Pittodrie Street  Section Y of the South stand and the corner infill between the main and merkland would need to go to allow for concourses.

 

I am going to see what size of pitch and track has been allowed for at Kingsford and put that on the CAD to see if it makes a difference but I am skeptical.

 

 

 

[manc_don]

Tom, you can just have the 3m run off beyond the pitch, that will cover it. Think the premier league prefer 5m but the FA in England state 3m as the minimum and it what I've worked to before. 5m is better as it allows for flexibility of pitch use (I.e. Scotland rugby games)

[donsdaft]

Rotate the pitch 90 degrees and budge it up a bit.

 

Build a complete new stadium over one close season.

 

There, job done.

 

The Donsdaft Stadium (although I'll still call it Pittodrie)

[RicoS321]

Am I right in thinking that we are heavily constricted by the RDS positioning? If we're doing hypothetical stadium plans, wid it be possible to ditch the RDS and move the whole thing back by 5 or so metres and perhaps round a bit to the left if yer facing from the sea in order to use the space where the Soother car park is? Then you'd be further from the flats on both Sooth and Merkie. That'd be perfect, thanks.

 

Anyway, I'll take the 13 thoosan seats for now and we can keep that until building techniques improve and we can get a further 5 thoosan then.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

May I take the opportunity to remind and engage Oxfordshire Man with the news that Hibs have redeveloped the whole ground - not just the East Stand.

 

The main stand was redeveloped 2003 or so. Easter Rd is totally different to how it looked in 1995.

 

All of the stands are hemmed in by tenements, Albion Rd, Albion Place.  In fact it is more hemmed in than Pittodrie.

 

The pavements are smaller (shorter). 

 

Funnily enough there are flats that look exactly like the flats outside Pittodrie (new flats where the gasworks were) outside Easter Road - never stopped them knocking up that new stand.

 

Many of them were against the old east stand/terrace being demolished - they liked it.

 

As regards RDS being 'constricted' - constricted by what fresh air??  There is nothing in front of the RDS just as there was nothing in front of Beach End.

[rocket_scientist]

Modernising Pittodrie was always a possible plan. Indeed it WAS the plan in the early 90's, thus the building of the RDS. As soon as it was built however, the builder wormed himself on to the board, facilitated by the hapless fool, Ian Donald.

 

The builder had an agenda. Indeed he had the front to propose relocation that same decade. In the two decades since, the stadium has been neglected.

 

All of these are facts yet some can't believe that there are "bad men in authority", mostly because of poor environmental conditioning i.e. brainwashing by ridiculously stupid and cowardly nothings of parents.