New stadium thread

[RicoS321]

And the funding for razing the ground to the floor, realigning Pittodrie Street with all the services underneath (gas electric sewage broadband etc) for around 300 metres or so and also Golf Road if you want to shift the whole thing towards the sea,buying up the flats and any other properties that may impinge on the project and rebuilding the ground to an acceptable size (17.5 k minimum?) is going to come from where?

 

Oh and not forgetting there's also a training centre which will still be need to be built somewhere else in or around the city, losing the obvious benefits of having the stadium adjacent ( separate services whereas they can be integrated on one site etc)

 

We know that we will get 15-20 million by selling Pittodrie (and leaving the demolition costs to any prospective buyer). So we are looking to fund 30 million or so to achieve Kingsford. There's no head start in paying for a redeveloped Pittodrie. It would be the full 50 million plus the costs on top I've mentioned above. Plus whatever it costs to build the training ground on a separate site.

 

I support the club and whilst Pittodrie will always have a special place in my heart, ultimately, within reason, I dont give a flying fuck where we play. I would even have accepted Portlethen despite it being outwith the city as there are very obvious transport advantages to being there. We need to accept that change is necessary. Too much time has been wasted already..

 

Your last paragraph is just meaningless guff. We don't need to accept anything, we need to be presented with evidence. Nobody is making the argument that change isn't necessary, simply that the suggested change isn't very good - stop conflating arguments. Whether you or I think somewhere is acceptable is irrelevant, it's whether or not it is demonstrably more accessible and viable than existing - that has not been evidenced.

 

Your first part is exactly what I'm asking for. All these costs are part of the project and would be detailed in a well-presented feasibility study/dummy planning application. I could provide a list of things for Kingsford: access road, foundations, hazardous waste ( ) etc. and say "where are we getting the money from?". It's meaningless. None of the problems you pose are insurmountable, they just add cost and are going to be done by a developer buying the site so certainly aren't prohibitive to us (in terms of physical ability), they get done all the time in building works. A detailed explanation of that cost and what takes us over our £35M available budget if that is the case. Just listing these points to make it sound as if the idea is ridiculous is disingenuous, they are just things that add cost that you or I have not costed or been shown a costing of to make any series point on.

 

As for the training centre. The notion that it needs to be anywhere near the ground is ridiculous, as is evidenced all over the UK and Europe. It will perhaps save a small amount yearly going forward, but nothing close to the cost of shuttle buses every week forever. The cost of the training centre will be the same whether it's in Kingsford or Inverurie, I couldn't care less (although I very much agree one is required). In fact, I think Kingsford is an excellent place for the training facilities. Cause there's fuck all else there.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Pretty sure a £25m debt outlay on sprucing up Pittodrie would have it looking new and get a training pitch v £30m+ debt taken on for Kingsford.

 

Debt v Debt.  Kingsford is not being built by some mystery donation.  Debt, club debt, big debt.

 

It's called initiative.

 

Many many clubs develop a home base in conjunction with local businesses, community ventures - AFC have not done that.  Just back from Lillestrom and surprise surprise they redeveloped the Arason ground by working with local authority to integrate commercial and residential property into the stadium.

 

Nobody at Aberdeen explored that?  No.

 

 

[Garlogie_Granite]

In fact, I think Kingsford is an excellent place for the training facilities. Cause there's fuck all else there.

I don't.

 

If those W.A.N.K.S. kill the stadium, I'll be fucked if they then get the benefit of the community facility part of this still on their doorstep. They can fuck aff

[Dunty]

True story or just more made up shite to help your anti Kingsford rhetoric?

 

 

Of course it's made up. Last night was invite only to a select group who were backing the stadium - I hardly think this chancer got an invite.

[tom_widdows]

Of course I do. That's the absolute minimum they should be doing.

Approx £200k in fees

 

They should be investigating moving the Main stand and re-routing the road

Option 1

Somehow Relocate a publicly owned road so that it doesn't affect existing surrounding private property and still provide enough space for a new football stand meeting all modern regulations including the external emergency evacuation area/ concourse = Loss of existing stadium car park. Existing situation made worse ergo immediately in trouble with planning & building control

Option 2

Somehow buy public owned road = Purchase price + additional cost of improving surrounding roads to make up for loss of main arterial access/ unobstructed emergency vehicle access + compensation to existing residents/ businesses.

 

stepping the South stand from right to left (as you face it) to avoid blocking light whilst gaining more seats

Blocking light for the flats behind is a minor concern compared to providing

-Emergency vehicle access route behind stand + modern terracing construction and seating/ circulation space requirements + emergency concourse break out area.

South stand is a former terrace which was never actually designed to be seated hence the bad views, terrible circulation and also the high capacity

 

investigate buying the bottom row of flats in the building most affected in order to gain an extra metre or two in height.

Planning regs do not allow half assed solutions such as that. Gaining additional height would require the same method as gaining additional width. Buy the flats and demolish them. No compulsory purchase orders for such a development so its market price + whatever the residents demand.

 

Using general imagination and working out what maximum size they could reach, and allowing fans to submit a series of questions (stupid or otherwise) to help satisfy any concerns. List the various options and reasons why those options are unfeasible. Take suggestions and develop them or send them back with a reason why they're gash. Involve the community and fans in a decision that will affect them long after Stewarty moves on. That's what they did for Loirston, that's what they're doing for Kingsford and I dare say they did similar for Bellfied (was that what it was called? I canna mine now) too. If they haven't already done that, then why not? If I could see the drawings and see the work done, be given the opportunity to submit ideas and make comment, I'd definitely believe it. As I can't see the drawings (not even yours...!), I don't believe it. The cost of being inclusive and open/transparent is nothing and will only benefit the club in the long run. I dare say it'd even be the difference between getting Kingsford through planning or not. Threats of "we'll have to play in Glasgow" just make me more suspicious. Those aren't the comments of a trustworthy person, who's made a watertight and transparent case.

 

Would me finishing off a couple of simple cad cross sections cutting through the 3 new stands and showing a new pitch plus a very basic seating plan help as given the way this thread keeps bouncing back with the same arguments I am willing to give it a go and post it?

[RicoS321]

Approx £200k in fees

Option 1

 

Exactly. Fuck all in the scheme of Bellfield, Loirston, Kingsford and Tommy Wright. The minimum we should be doing.

 

Somehow Relocate a publicly owned road so that it doesn't affect existing surrounding private property and still provide enough space for a new football stand meeting all modern regulations including the external emergency evacuation area/ concourse = Loss of existing stadium car park. Existing situation made worse ergo immediately in trouble with planning & building control

Option 2

Somehow buy public owned road = Purchase price + additional cost of improving surrounding roads to make up for loss of main arterial access/ unobstructed emergency vehicle access + compensation to existing residents/ businesses.

 

I think that's vastly over-stating it. But, yes. There is very little existing surrounding private property behind the mainer. This is no different to the private road concern that stopped Loirston. It was a perfectly surmountable issue that the club chose not to pursue, rather have a rant at the cooncil. Again, we've not approached the council, so we've nae idea. It's publicly owned, so I'd suggest that a sympathetic council would be far easier to bring to an agreement than getting them to support a whole new stadium.

 

Blocking light for the flats behind is a minor concern compared to providing

-Emergency vehicle access route behind stand + modern terracing construction and seating/ circulation space requirements + emergency concourse break out area.

South stand is a former terrace which was never actually designed to be seated hence the bad views, terrible circulation and also the high capacity

Planning regs do not allow half assed solutions such as that. Gaining additional height would require the same method as gaining additional width. Buy the flats and demolish them. No compulsory purchase orders for such a development so its market price + whatever the residents demand.

 

Again, without seeing diagrams to show which flats are affected, it's not particularly useful to speculate. It could be entire buildings, or could just be a few flats. Again, work it out and get it costed. But show us the workings and show us plans so people can see the evidence for themselves. The emergency services route and concourse is interesting. I'd assume the away end would move to the beach end, thus there'd be access to the entire Souther from the beach end or graveyard side of things. Not sure if that works regulation-wise, but I can't see why not.

 

Would me finishing off a couple of simple cad cross sections cutting through the 3 new stands and showing a new pitch plus a very basic seating plan help as given the way this thread keeps bouncing back with the same arguments I am willing to give it a go and post it?

 

I'd say that's the least you could do......

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Of course it's made up. Last night was invite only to a select group who were backing the stadium - I hardly think this chancer got an invite.

 

ha ha - uber Dons fan alert.

 

£5m of cash spunked on a plan over 17 years for a training ground plan that isn't assured of getting past ACC come Oct.

 

I kain fa Derek McInnes should be punching in the face if it all fails.

 

 

[Garlogie_Granite]

 

 

I kain fa Derek McInnes should be punching in the face if it all fails.

You?

[100% Anti Kingsford]

You?

 

That is just the sort of crass, bonkers mind bogglingly stupid comments I have come to expect from any of these morons in Yes Kingsford or yourself.

 

- The club have spunked £5m of cash over 17 years

- The club has blown bundles of cash on reports, investigations, campaigns

- The club has failed to provide Derek and his predecessors with proper training facilities (facilities that Hibs had in place years ago using £4.7m).

 

Despite your crass, repeated finger jabbing at No Kingsford people and impassioned defence of the latest Kingsford as some sort of San Siro, the current #hashtag offering is the culmination of £5m quid of club cash which currently is in jeopardy and not sure of getting past even an ACC shower of councillors given how amateur the transport plan is - yes, the big white elephant.

 

I am not to blame for the club not delivering facilities for Derek, No Kingsford people are also not to blame.

 

Milne will be to blame.

 

 

[manc_don]

Not sure if this has been posted yet but this is DM's speech from last night.

 

https://www.facebook.com/ryan.grant.948/videos/1586233621408669/?hc_ref=ARS9R4MkbPrOeH6xfqzOBs4h37copwkpZsv7de6VWNtR2fm55Pe3If9zuATa_Fck6GE

[tlg1903]

I've not really posted very much in this thread as I have found a fair bit of it pretty tedious. 

 

I can't say I particularly care about pittodrie overly.  I've had some good times there but as a ground it's 3 bike sheds and the rds, it's not a pretty stadium by any stretch of the imagination.  Atmosphere is limited and so is view in both pitchside stands, if I'm honest I have found pittodrie a bit of an embarrassment for a long time.    The location is indeed pretty good but I have to travel at least 110 miles to get to any game that is not in the highlands so the central location doesn't particularly affect me.  It seems fairly obvious to me that further investigation into redeveloping the pittodrie is a fools errand and it's pointless to explore it any further.  Sometimes you just have to move on. 

 

I don't know Aberdeen particularly well as a city but again it seems fairly obvious that there is no stand out location for a new stadium.  The phrase beggars can't be choosers springs to mind, if ACC approve Kingsford then I will be delighted because the club is being held back by our current setup and has been for quite a while.  To progress as a club we need custom training facilities, we need a new stadium and we need it  yesterday.  If ACC refuse the application it is reasonable to assume that we are going to get left behind by the hearts and hibs of this world who are already light years ahead of us in terms of infastructure.  I don't know about you but that sends a shudder down my spine. 

[tom_widdows]

I'd say that's the least you could do......

 

Give me a couple of weeks till I get back from holiday.

(Knowing my luck the club will beat me to it)

[RicoS321]

It seems fairly obvious to me that further investigation into redeveloping the pittodrie is a fools errand and it's pointless to explore it any further.  Sometimes you just have to move on.

 

Why? What piece of evidence swayed it for you?

 

Great speech by McInnes like, he's very good. He's right (as are you tlg) that we need training facilities in order to keep ahead Hertz, Hibs and the huns. He wasn't really able to articulate the reasons behind requiring training and stadium in the same location, probably cause there aren't any particularly obvious ones.

 

For what it's worth, I also think Pittodrie is a shite hole and needs to be replaced. It's entirely about location for me. It's like moving yer cinema fae Union Square to Badentoy.

[RicoS321]

Give me a couple of weeks till I get back from holiday.

(Knowing my luck the club will beat me to it)

 

Ace min, looking forward to it. Enjoy your holiday!

[donsdaft]

Why? What piece of evidence swayed it for you?

 

Great speech by McInnes like, he's very good. He's right (as are you tlg) that we need training facilities in order to keep ahead Hertz, Hibs and the huns. He wasn't really able to articulate the reasons behind requiring training and stadium in the same location, probably cause there aren't any particularly obvious ones.

 

For what it's worth, I also think Pittodrie is a shite hole and needs to be replaced. It's entirely about location for me. It's like moving yer cinema fae Union Square to Badentoy.

 

 

 

 

 

Christ min, you're a lightweight aren't you.

 

 

Real Dons fans have never been to Union Square

 

 

If ever there was a stupid place to build something..........

[Elgindon]

Why? What piece of evidence swayed it for you?

 

Great speech by McInnes like, he's very good. He's right (as are you tlg) that we need training facilities in order to keep ahead Hertz, Hibs and the huns. He wasn't really able to articulate the reasons behind requiring training and stadium in the same location, probably cause there aren't any particularly obvious ones.

 

For what it's worth, I also think Pittodrie is a shite hole and needs to be replaced. It's entirely about location for me. It's like moving yer cinema fae Union Square to Badentoy.

 

 

  The population demographic is changing/has changed though has it nae?.I read somewhere(AC council report),that of the 60,000 migrants that had moved to the city in recent years,most had settled on the East side of town,with more of the locals moving to the outskirts and beyond.I can see most of the land between town and the AWPR being built on(see Blairs,and Stewarties abomination between Cults and Kingswells).So longer term will Kingsford not eventually become a more reasonable site for the stadium,with the benefit of the AWPR,(along with the handy bonus of the sale of Pittodrie?

    And when the stadium starts falling apart in 20 years time,it will be time to move to the Alford arena anyway 

[RicoS321]

 

 

 

 

Christ min, you're a lightweight aren't you.

 

 

Real Dons fans have never been to Union Square

 

 

If ever there was a stupid place to build something..........

 

I hate union square, it's a fuckin weird place. I have been to it though. Once or twice. I like the improvements to the train and bus station. The rest is gash. The food places are pap. I'd rather have seen an open space with trees.

[RicoS321]

 

  The population demographic is changing/has changed though has it nae?.I read somewhere(AC council report),that of the 60,000 migrants that had moved to the city in recent years,most had settled on the East side of town,with more of the locals moving to the outskirts and beyond.I can see most of the land between town and the AWPR being built on(see Blairs,and Stewarties abomination between Cults and Kingswells).So longer term will Kingsford not eventually become a more reasonable site for the stadium,with the benefit of the AWPR?

    And when the stadium starts falling apart in 20 years time,it will be time to move to the Alford arena anyway 

 

Yep, an excellent point.

[donsdaft]

Strange improvements

 

Busses struggle to get in and out of the bus station.

 

Improvements right enough

[tlg1903]

Why? What piece of evidence swayed it for you?

 

Great speech by McInnes like, he's very good. He's right (as are you tlg) that we need training facilities in order to keep ahead Hertz, Hibs and the huns. He wasn't really able to articulate the reasons behind requiring training and stadium in the same location, probably cause there aren't any particularly obvious ones.

 

For what it's worth, I also think Pittodrie is a shite hole and needs to be replaced. It's entirely about location for me. It's like moving yer cinema fae Union Square to Badentoy.

No one bit, combination of 3 factors.  It would involve either major redevelopment of the existing stadium or complete demolition and start over.  Where would we play in the 1-2 years whilst this was going on?  Tannadice?  Dens?  fuck that. There's also no money from the sale of the land and educated opinion on modern stadium standards says we would end up with nearly half the current capacity. Again, fuck that.  Overall it just doesn't seem worth pursuing to me.  The bang to buck ratio is far higher with moving than it is remaining, location seems a fairly small price to pay imo.

There's a very obvious one.  It will be a fair bit cheaper to build training facilities as part of one complex then on two sites. 

[tlg1903]

A question for those who know more about construction etc.  If kingsford is approved phase 1 is the training facility.  How long would this take to become functional?  Would it be possible to have operational by the end of the season?

[tom_widdows]

A question for those who know more about construction etc.  If kingsford is approved phase 1 is the training facility.  How long would this take to become functional?  Would it be possible to have operational by the end of the season?

Its only the planning stage at the moment.

They would need to obtain Building Warrant before they can legally start construction plus there is also the headache of obtaining new utilities which in itself can take up to a year.

 

I haven't had any recent dealings with Aberdeen City Building Control but I would be surprised if they weren't struggling like every other Council in the land so I doubt the warrant would be granted quickly. For anything more complex than a small house extension it seems to be taking local council's minimum 8 months to approve a warrant (We had one which took 16 months of which 3 months was actually spent waiting for the Council's admin team to get round to issuing the documents.

[tlg1903]

Good to know, thanks Tom.

[manc_don]

Its only the planning stage at the moment.

They would need to obtain Building Warrant before they can legally start construction plus there is also the headache of obtaining new utilities which in itself can take up to a year.

 

I haven't had any recent dealings with Aberdeen City Building Control but I would be surprised if they weren't struggling like every other Council in the land so I doubt the warrant would be granted quickly. For anything more complex than a small house extension it seems to be taking local council's minimum 8 months to approve a warrant (We had one which took 16 months of which 3 months was actually spent waiting for the Council's admin team to get round to issuing the documents.

 

I only ever worked with local Building Control during my brief stint in Scotland, down here we have approved inspectors to speed the process up (allegedly).  Are there not similar systems in place in Scotland?  Otherwise you're right, will take forever!

[tom_widdows]

I only ever worked with local Building Control during my brief stint in Scotland, down here we have approved inspectors to speed the process up (allegedly).  Are there not similar systems in place in Scotland?  Otherwise you're right, will take forever!

 

The English system is certainly quicker but I have my reservations about it especially given how bad the English Building Regs are. In my experience the local council inspectors will issue a minimum of 10 queries for any warrant many of which can be taken care of with a phone call however the record I have received was 120 which was for a fairly large residential conversion.

For Projects in England the most I think I had was 15 queries and I don't recall having to make any changes to the drawings (it was a very complex building too) whereas up here it is rare you will obtain a warrant without several drawing revisions.

The Scottish system has helped me learn the Regs so I usually have an idea of what is possible before a line is even drawn.

The English system on the other hand almost seems to treat regulations as a rough guideline allowing a lot more freedom for the designer and, in recent cases with external cladding, the specifier and contractor.

 

I believe those newly built Edinburgh Schools which had severe problems a few years back were allowed to be passed under a self certification scheme which dented the hopes of people who want the English system brought North of the Border

 

I will be interested to see what the review of the English system proposes and whether or not the approved inspectors will be allowed to continue without more Government control.