So... remind me how much it cost

[Guest rocket debris]

I think I clarified what I meant by preaching to the converted. If you didn't understand it or bother to read it then that is your problem.

 

Perhaps you'd like me to tell you metaphorically. It would involve faeces though.

Mmmm... Metaphors. Faeces. Look forward to your shite metaphor to compliment mine.

[baggy89]

I still don't get the "teading water" "had to go" perspectives.

 

Where are we supposed to be heading? Pulllllleeeeeeeaaaaaase no cunt say the next fucking level.

 

Unless someone comes in with decent money to actually back a manager and provide real finance to fund a proper youth system "treading water" is going to be as good as it gets. Change from "treading water" and the risks are what we seem to be experiencing at the moment. A big retrograde step. I said earlier there is nothing at all to say we have progressed, I do think we have went back. A lot.

 

There are only a few folk to blame for this and none of them handed out post its outside Pittodrie. The lack of foresight the board has displayed over the last 2 years has been fucking disgraceful. It is their choice to change managers and they rightly exercised that choice but saw fit to give the previous manager a fucking contract that required paying off with money the club continually doesn't have, probably resulting in coughing something approaching "a fucking fortune" to achieve the change.

 

These cunts have financed a decline in the club but where did the money actually come from?

 

Exactly! If treading water is qualifying for Europe every couple of seasons but challenging for that place every season and winning in the league more often than we lose. I'd be willing to accept that, even if it meant sucking up a humiliating cup exit once or twice a season.  Even more so if it meant the club was beginning to look like breaking even on a yearly basis.

 

Really and truly what was so wrong with that?

 

 

That said Calderwood probably felt he had achieved all he was going to, given the financial constraints of the club. Maybe he felt he should have won something tangible and that's what prompted the signing of the extension? In all honesty things needed freshening up at that time on both sides. A new man would have had a clean slate to work from, as that side had just been broken up.

 

Any kind of lasting success has to be built on foundations, what kind of success does anyone expect to be built on a £12 million debt especially when your adding another +/-£1 million to it? I'm sure there has to some sort of metaphoric link in there regarding SMG hooses and dodgy foundations .

 

I don't think I was ever particularly a fan of Calderwood, but summer 2009 who was realistically going to do better and what is better? 3rd every season? A good run in the lottery of the cups? After all this is not like the 80's, we are not the first/second best team in the league. In all honesty we're somewhere between the 3rd and 7th best team.

 

McGhee was never the man for the job. Rocket likes to harp on about winners. McGhee, while successful as a player has achieved fuck all as a manager. Like has been said the club is a shambles they take a risk in punting a manger but bottle it half way through and take a "safe" option as a replacement. I assume they thought as a former fans favourite, he'd be given time and excused the same "achievements" that Jimmy was berated for. 

 

 

In answer to Rockets post:

 

Was paying off Calderwood wrong? Yes, as far as the timing of it. He had qualified his team for Europe most of which were half way through 2 year deals, and should have been allowed to finish the job he started.

 

Was it correct to give Calderwood an extension? No, lets be honest, from both AFC's and Calderwood's perspective things needed freshening up.

 

Was McGhee the correct replacement? As has been said; many on this forum, myself included, did not think so. Unfortunately it looks like we were correct.

[BobbyBiscuit]

Exactly! If treading water is qualifying for Europe every couple of seasons but challenging for that place every season and winning in the league more often than we lose. I'd be willing to accept that, even if it meant sucking up a humiliating cup exit once or twice a season.  Even more so if it meant the club was beginning to look like breaking even on a yearly basis.

 

Really and truly what was so wrong with that?

 

The cups are realistically the only tangible piece of success we can hope for at the moment.  Losing, on a consistent basis, to lower league opposition is not acceptable, and there is everything wrong with that.  Likewise being humiliated by other SPL teams like United and Hibs.  And that goes for whoever the manager is.

[Guest rocket debris]

But I never ever endorsed McGhee unlike others on another site. Even now though, I still don't have the audacity to say that he's the wrong choice. The manager's role is impossible given the continued mismanagement above him and where we are as a club, with a squad that clearly isn't good enough. Even Paton was woeful last night and the three youngsters are the only source of potential light at the end of the tunnel for me.

 

Not sure that your reference to my "harping on about winners" is misguided, relevant or insulting. Perhaps if you listen to McGhee's interview after the game last night, a sole voice of reason when talking about the squad he inherited, it might clarify for you.

[tsr]

The cups are realistically the only tangible piece of success we can hope for at the moment.  Losing, on a consistent basis, to lower league opposition is not acceptable, and there is everything wrong with that.  Likewise being humiliated by other SPL teams like United and Hibs.  And that goes for whoever the manager is.

 

I agree totally, apart from anything else we only scraped into Europe last season on the last day of the season via the league. Losing to Queens Park, Dunfermline, Queen Of The South, hopeless surrender against Hibs/Dundee Utd, it was to much, if folk can't see why JC cup record was unacceptable then there is not a lot else that can be said.

[baggy89]

The cups are realistically the only tangible piece of success we can hope for at the moment.  Losing, on a consistent basis, to lower league opposition is not acceptable, and there is everything wrong with that.  Likewise being humiliated by other SPL teams like United and Hibs.  And that goes for whoever the manager is.

 

It's not acceptable but surely it can be made palatable if in the long term the club can get back onto an an even financial keel. That, above all else, has to be the real key to any sort of tangible future success.

 

But I never ever endorsed McGhee unlike others on another site. Even now though, I still don't have the audacity to say that he's the wrong choice. The manager's role is impossible given the continued mismanagement above him and where we are as a club, with a squad that clearly isn't good enough. Even Paton was woeful last night and the three youngsters are the only source of potential light at the end of the tunnel for me.

 

Not sure that your reference to my "harping on about winners" is misguided, relevant or insulting. Perhaps if you listen to McGhee's interview after the game last night, a sole voice of reason when talking about the squad he inherited, it might clarify for you.

 

I admit, you amuse me, especially when you get angry, sort of like a reverse Bruce Banner.

I haven't listened to the interview, perhaps I will when I go home, although your description of what sounds to me as McGhee whining about the hand he has been dealt, sounds like something I would have no interest in sitting through.

 

A good manager works with his teams strengths while trying to improve on their weaknesses, for McGhee to still be blaming the players for his inability to work in this way, after 8 months in the job and two previous embarrassing cup defeats, says all I need to know.

 

I agree totally, apart from anything else we only scraped into Europe last season on the last day of the season via the league. Losing to Queens Park, Dunfermline, Queen Of The South, hopeless surrender against Hibs/Dundee Utd, it was to much, if folk can't see why JC cup record was unacceptable then there is not a lot else that can be said.

 

1) Who gives a fuck how we got there, we got there. Please don't now come out with "we didn't deserve 4th place last season".

 

2) Was it worth the close to £1million to find out if someone else could achieve any less unacceptable cup results.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

I agree totally, apart from anything else we only scraped into Europe last season on the last day of the season via the league. Losing to Queens Park, Dunfermline, Queen Of The South, hopeless surrender against Hibs/Dundee Utd, it was to much, if folk can't see why JC cup record was unacceptable then there is not a lot else that can be said.

 

Well, thus far McGhee's is worse than JC's. So where does that leave us?

[Guest rocket debris]

Change of manager = minor alteration in overall scheme of things.

 

You are so desperate to be proved right about MM you fail to understand where the club is, how we got here and where we will go without fundamental change in the area that you don't consider as important as the irrelevant sucker between Willie Miller and the squad. 

[BobbyBiscuit]

It's not acceptable but surely it can be made palatable if in the long term the club can get back onto an an even financial keel. That, above all else, has to be the real key to any sort of tangible future success.

 

 

The cup exits hurt us financially. the accumulated opportunity cost of these defeats must be huge. 

Not to mention the negative effect it brings on the team, the supporters, potential sponsorships etc. A cup win would galvanise the support, get people interested and excited in the Dons.  The knock on effect of a succesful cup run should not be underestimated.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

The cup exits hurt us financially. the accumulated opportunity cost of these defeats must be huge. 

Not to mention the negative effect it brings on the team, the supporters, potential sponsorships etc. A cup win would galvanise the support, get people interested and excited in the Dons.  The knock on effect of a succesful cup run should not be underestimated.

 

So the board have embarked upon a mission to win the cup?

 

Figures.

[baggy89]

Change of manager = minor alteration in overall scheme of things.

 

You are so desperate to be proved right about MM you fail to understand where the club is, how we got here and where we will go without fundamental change in the area that you don't consider as important as the irrelevant sucker between Willie Miller and the squad.

 

I couldn't give a fuck about McGhee. My arguments at the time of Calderwood's sacking and McGhee's subsequent appointment were more concerned with the financial implications for the club. As I've already said in this very thread we need a black bank balance before any kind of success can be built.

 

Fuck, I think if you go back about a week I speculated whether attempting to push Milne out and take the consequences would we be any worse off, even if it meant administration and relegation.

 

[tsr]

Well, thus far McGhee's is worse than JC's. So where does that leave us?

As I said elsewhere it strikes me as bizarre to go with a manager that pre Aberdeen had a shit cup record so I don't know where it leaves us after last night.

[Kowalski]

Change of manager = minor alteration in overall scheme of things.

 

You are so desperate to be proved right about MM you fail to understand where the club is, how we got here and where we will go without fundamental change in the area that you don't consider as important as the irrelevant sucker between Willie Miller and the squad.

 

Think you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

Change of manager has plunged us much further into debt, and the hoped-for cup runs this season have resulted in three humiliating exits and thus less revenue than planned.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

As I said elsewhere it strikes me as bizarre to go with a manager that pre Aberdeen had a shit cup record so I don't know where it leaves us after last night.

 

Agreed. Put fucking Mourinho in charge, without investment the results won't be too much different.

[Guest rocket debris]

Think you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

Change of manager has plunged us much further into debt, and the hoped-for cup runs this season have resulted in three humiliating exits and thus less revenue than planned.

With over £3m in the bank, and spending an equivalent amount on a feasibility study, the club was in a position to pay them off. The pay off is an irrelevance as March 2011 approaches. What's your big picture telling you then?

[glasgow sheep]

There are shock results in the cup and then there are defeats regularly to lower league opposition and humilation (far beyond that meated out in the SPL) from the likes of united, hibs and killie.

 

Surely it is not beyond the wits of somebody to do better than this without any extra investment. I mean I could list all the clubs who have got to finals since we last did but it would be quicker saying who hasn't, and several of those have been a good bit worse than we are now.

 

Sustained improvement in the league however does need investment and without it there is probably only a very small margin of potential improvement on what JC achieved until/unless our youngsters prove to live up to the hype and stick about for a bit.

 

I can't see that anyone can argue that the club was going stale, that the cup defeats were having a disproportionately big effect on the club and the fans and that realistically JC wasn't going to change that.  I would agree with those who say that it was time for JC to go, however the resultant cost has been magnified by the setanta loss and means sacking him was clearly a huge mistake.  Having said that JC would not have seen a penny more than MM has this year and we would be having similar arguments, discussion and moans as we have done for the last 3 years which would gradually have worn us down.

 

Unfortunatley the appointment of MM looks to have back fired badly and his comments re fans and harping on about celtic are as bad if not worse than alot of what JC came out with.  I believe he does have a vision for the club that we have seen all too briefly from the team so far this season, but any change is going to take along time to implement (going on the current rate of change). 

 

I suspect we will finish 6th or 7th this year and have to hope that something happens in the summer to reignite the fans.  I suspect if JC had been in charge we would be saying something similar but with a slightly better league position and a couple of hundred grand in the bank.  Something needs to be done as when so many fans (including myself to a degree) response to last night was "meh, not again" it must be a worrying time for the everyone given the steady decline in attendances.

 

I have no answers, and more importantly the board don't either. We are where we are.  MM will be given more time and we have to hope that something changes.  In reality until we finally sort out the stadium issue this club is going no where.  I just wish no where didn't involve so many soul destroying performances in the cup (can we just not enter next year?)

[stubo72]

Having had time to calm down since last night (and having spent my entire lunch hour reading this thread)...

 

Listening to McGhee's post-match interview, he at least seems to know what the problems are and is as pissed off at the losers we have playing for us as any of us are. He also seems to be determined to do what he can to resolve this.

 

He's taken the barracking he got on the chin and I actually like him more after hearing that interview than I did before the game even began...

 

Still not convinced by anything that he has actually done during his reign as opposed to the talking, right enough. As we have all just seen last night, talk is very very cheap indeed...

 

Wish our players (i.e. Mackie, Maclean, Diamond, Aluko) wouldn't waste their breath in the EE or other rags bullshitting on about how determined or desperate they are to win 'for the fans'. They quite clearly couldn't give a fuck when they aren't on Sky against the OF and being watched by a bunch Championship scouts/managers. Cunts. 

 

Ok maybe I haven't actually calmed down that much! 

[RDU_64]

Just couldn't handle replying to anything last night.

 

As has been said, McGhee ultimately carries the can as he is the manager, yet he is being hung out to dry by the fucking board, Willie Miller and Stewart Milne. As has been said, it was all to easy for Miller to come out and spout nonsense to appease the fans after Rangers, Copenhagen, before Bayern Munich and get some fans excited, but where the fuck is he now? Sipping fucking champagne in Soul? Comes out with nothing. Leaving McGhee to face the full extent of the media and fans whilst the board, Milne and Miller scuttle off like cretins. It's all so easy to be the darling of the media when the going is good, it's when the going get tough that the tough get going as Billy Joel said. It was their decision to not back Calderwood after the Euro run, it was their decision to offer him, Nicholl and Clark lucrative contracts, their decision to sack them a few months later, their decision to pay compensation for McGhee and Leitch and ultimately their decision not to back McGhee publicly and financially. To refuse to back their manager by freeing up the purse strings to offer 20k for a player like Jim O'Brien is scandalous.

 

The more I see pictures of McGhee and read his comments (I have not yet listened to his interview), I actually feel sorry for him. Only last night, I think how much of a job he has on his hands. What he has at his disposal, are a bunch of players that are happy enough playing the 'glamorous' ties of the SPL, the Rangers, the Celtics, the Hearts, the Dundee Uniteds of this league but are not man enough to roll up the sleeves against hard working sides that will get in your face, get 10 or 11 men behind the ball and fight for every ball. Raith Rovers did that over the two legs, looked more hungrier and wanted it more and thoroughly deserved their win. An absolutely disgusting performance and utterly pathetic. I am sick of these players continually picking up a weekly wage packet at our beloved club. As I have said in another thread, I think it was last night that McGhee fully realised the magnitude of the task at this club, starting with receiving the backing by the board and then transmitting this upon the playing squad. This is nigh on impossible without finances. I think it made a statement about his opinion of the squad at his disposal, whilst losing against a first division side in a cup, he doesn't bring anyone on. That speaks volumes.

 

Two reviews are needed at this club,

 

1) The management of the club encompassing the structure of the club and finances. Right from Stewart Milne to the ball boys.

 

2) The playing side.

 

 

[Mentorred]

I say we get behind the manager and give him a 3 year contract extension

[kelt]

Some of us endured a horrible night at Pittodrie. Some of you didn't. Some posters on here presented contributory opinions to the subject you started, a subject you don't appear to wish to discuss any more. That's fine, uncle. I'm sure there's plenty of kids in here you can play up for. Just don't start subjects you know fuck all about or are unprepared to follow through on just because mad got rid of you and you have an overwhelming need to hear the sound of your own shite.

 

OMG you're so CUTE!

 

 

Got the piss ripped out of you when you tried the "You're a stupid stupid" tactic, so you change to the "You know fuck all tactic" even though you demonstrated, repeatedly, that you have no idea what my point was

 

Awesome...

 

Hey, Fatjim.. do you mind if I taunt your monkey for a bit?

 

Literally speaking, you understand.

 

 

 

[Guest rocket debris]

You sure you want to do this, kelt?

[kelt]

You sure you want to do this, kelt?

 

Do what?

 

Rip the piss out of yet another barely coherent muppet who has a problem with me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ajja]

There are shock results in the cup and then there are defeats regularly to lower league opposition and humilation (far beyond that meated out in the SPL) from the likes of united, hibs and killie.

 

Surely it is not beyond the wits of somebody to do better than this without any extra investment. I mean I could list all the clubs who have got to finals since we last did but it would be quicker saying who hasn't, and several of those have been a good bit worse than we are now.

 

Sustained improvement in the league however does need investment and without it there is probably only a very small margin of potential improvement on what JC achieved until/unless our youngsters prove to live up to the hype and stick about for a bit.

 

I can't see that anyone can argue that the club was going stale, that the cup defeats were having a disproportionately big effect on the club and the fans and that realistically JC wasn't going to change that.  I would agree with those who say that it was time for JC to go, however the resultant cost has been magnified by the setanta loss and means sacking him was clearly a huge mistake.  Having said that JC would not have seen a penny more than MM has this year and we would be having similar arguments, discussion and moans as we have done for the last 3 years which would gradually have worn us down.

 

Unfortunatley the appointment of MM looks to have back fired badly and his comments re fans and harping on about celtic are as bad if not worse than alot of what JC came out with.  I believe he does have a vision for the club that we have seen all too briefly from the team so far this season, but any change is going to take along time to implement (going on the current rate of change). 

 

I suspect we will finish 6th or 7th this year and have to hope that something happens in the summer to reignite the fans.  I suspect if JC had been in charge we would be saying something similar but with a slightly better league position and a couple of hundred grand in the bank.  Something needs to be done as when so many fans (including myself to a degree) response to last night was "meh, not again" it must be a worrying time for the everyone given the steady decline in attendances.

 

I have no answers, and more importantly the board don't either. We are where we are.  MM will be given more time and we have to hope that something changes.  In reality until we finally sort out the stadium issue this club is going no where.  I just wish no where didn't involve so many soul destroying performances in the cup (can we just not enter next year?)

 

Excellent post GS 

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and for those who are now screaming that we should never have got rid of Calderwood its cleary a joyous time. I'm struggling to remember much clambering to carry on down the road we were on last season among the support back in the spring of last year. Yes we made Europe amidst poor opposition and we achieved a credible league finish but the football was awful almost all season and 90% of the fan base was not enjoying it. When I refer to 'treading water' that's what it felt like, another season of sub-standard football, poor cup runs and moderate top 6 finishes with a possible european place was not my idea of an exciting season. Would I take that this season ? Yes I probably would but thats the great thing about informing the decisions you should have made with future actions. Its hard to deny that performances and results have taken a step down and its hugely frustrating to face up to that fact but somewhere in this shitstorm there has to be some sort of belief that a better picture might emerge otherwise we might as well all just pack it in.

 

What really pisses me off about some of the opinions in this thread is that so many people on here historically presented themselves as rational thinkers with a longer, more sensible viewpoint. Yet the prevailing noise on the site since about 10 games into the season has been one of total intolerence and short term knee jerk reaction towards the change of management. Acidic commentary about 'transitional phases' and barb humour about 'Jimmys dross' merely appears representative of the fact that you have no patience or support for anything McGhee might be trying to do.

 

Before I get pelters for suggesting that we should just tolerate the shit we are being presented with let me make it perfectly clear that I am not happy with what is going on at the club. However, what I am willing to do is give the current manager more time to try and change things. It might have been a huge error to put him in place but we did and the least we can do is let him try to sort it out.

 

 

[bilbobaggins]

Disagree about the comments about transitional. It's in direct response to many months of baiting for being "happy clappers".

 

It's almost never directed towards McGhee. It's almost gallows humour and as I said in another thread, most of the people on herehave been pretty consistent.

 

 

[Guest rocket debris]

Another excellent post ajja. Agree with GS too and mention to RDU64, a quality contribution.

 

The knee jerkism you refer to is sickening. The gloating that the vocal minority pollute these forums with is interestingly, often executed by absentee "fans" who have not bothered to suffer the years of continuous decline, or through geographical reasons have not been able to.

 

As I said earlier, where we are is where we are, not by accident or misfortune but by a series of consequential acts that take us to this position. The references to the compensation pay out is an irrelevance, a crass attempt to attribute blame to the right people but for the wrong reason and totally over-exagerating the import of thus financial liability. Even the logic engaged by the doom mongerers is flawed, ignoring the accountability of the person or persons who granted the extension in the first place.

 

If there is any integrity to be had in any debate going forward, then retrospection and continually pining for the long gone is a destructive basis from which to start. These polluters are more concerned with their own "internet personalities" than AFC and will say anything to hold on to their historic viewpoint, since proven to be flawed.