Major Restructuring in the Pipeline for SPL

[Jute]

Only thing of merit in the proposal is the creation of one governing body. Rest is pish. There is a good article on The Away End site that lays out failings of latest plan better than I can.

[maverick sheep]

It's a slightly better version of what we already have imo, nothing radically different. We have to be rid of this farcical split asap though. Different teams having different number of home games and weaker/stronger opposition depending on how the fixtures are drawn is pathetic.

 

We need a pyramid structure, but one governing body is good. Hopefully this will mark the end of the voting structure that allows two teams to dictate to the rest.

[glasgow sheep]

Only thing of merit in the proposal is the creation of one governing body. Rest is pish. There is a good article on The Away End site that lays out failings of latest plan better than I can.

 

Setting aside the league numbers for a second listening to the three gnomes on Sportsound there are a number of positives:

1) 1 League Ruling body

2) More equitable split of cash

3) Increased chances of promotion and therefore an increased turnover of teams and thus increased variety

4) and plans for a pyramid

5) and perhaps the end of Cockwomble as his job disappears

 

The numbers to an extent aren't the major issue here, although clearly it is an issue.

 

When people moan about the staleness of the league it is because of the lack of promotion/relegation places not because there aren't 16,18 or 20 top league sides.  I don't believe anyone on here would rather go to Pittodrie to watch Aberdeen play Morton, Partick Thistle, Cowdenbeath or Hamilton rather than games vs Hearts, Hibs or United.  If we got a bigger league there would be an initial boost in AWAY fans but in the longterm our Home crowds will drop.  Add to that the other financial implications of less TV money and less home games means it is a suicidal idea for most SPL clubs.

 

As for the 8-8-8

I'm undecided.  I think for the top 8 and middle 8 it could be very exciting, I'm not sure what happens to the bottom 8 however. 

Main issues apart from that I would guess are the fact that the split is so early, STs sales could be hit if fans don't know who they will be paying to see for half the season and issues of getting games done and dusted for the first half of the season at the same time given the variables of our weather

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Agree with most of that GS, though the 8-8-8 can go get fucked. Sick of all these shitey splits and play-off ideas, seriously, it's like a very shite version of a The Thick Of It ideas meeting. Get teams in a fucking league and play football with relegation and promotion, one governing body and fairness in money distribution.

 

 

[Jute]

Split they are pushing has already been tried in Austria and Switzerland and dropped by both countries as fans were deserting the game. Why are they putting forward that has already failed in two different countries.

[Kowalski]

Split they are pushing has already been tried in Austria and Switzerland and dropped by both countries as fans were deserting the game. Why are they putting forward that has already failed in two different countries.

 

I think it sounds a load of shite to me and I don't think its what the majority of fans want, but since when did anyone ever listen to us.

[mizer]

Scotland’s senior football clubs will vote later in January on proposals to merge the Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League to introduce a new league structure.

At a meeting at Hampden on Tuesday between Scottish FA, SPL and SFL representatives, agreement was reached on the proposal that would create three leagues from the existing four and introducing a new split for promotion and relegation.

 

A pyramid system would also be introduced to allow a flow of current non-league clubs to compete for a place in the senior setup. Details of that plan have not yet been outlined.

 

Scottish FA chief executive Stewart Regan confirmed the plan following the meeting. "We have had a very productive meeting of the Scottish FA's professional game board at which we had board representatives from around a third of the 42 senior clubs in Scotland.

 

"I'm delighted to say that we have agreed a set of principles to restructure Scottish football. That will include a single league body, subject to club consultation.

 

"The next stage is to take a worked-up plan to clubs and we hope to do that by the end of January."

 

"Ultimately it will be the clubs that decide but we have seen today a willingness to make change happen and a recognition that Scottish football is crying out for a new dawn and we have now got agreement to take to clubs for a single league body.

 

"That is a huge step for the game in Scotland and it shouldn't be underestimated.

 

"The clubs will decide what can be delivered by the start of the coming season, but that's not something we are going to get hung up on.

 

"We will deliver the change, as a collective, when we believe it's the right time for the game."

 

The move would also see one unified governing body for the professional league set-up. Efforts will be made to push through the new leagues by next season.

 

The plan is to implement a top flight "Premiership" of 12 clubs, a 12-club "Championship" beneath and a third tier "National League" of 18 clubs.

 

 

[maverick sheep]

Chick Green reported as saying he'll propose The Rangers leave Scotland if 12-12-18 goes ahead.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

This proposal just became awesome.

[mizer]

IFA Premiership ?

[Tyrant]

This proposal just became awesome.

 

 

:rofl: Agreed!

[Kowalski]

A reminder of the supporters survey that was conducted to gauge fans preferences for league reconstruction:

 

http://sonstrust.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/supportersdirect2012surveypresentation.pdf

 

Are they even going to both consulting the fans with their 12-12-18 idea?

[manc_don]

http://www.afc.co.uk/articles/20130111/dons-ceo-outlines-details-on-league-reconstruction_2212158_3037939

 

Clubs pov.

[Reekie_Red]

I hate the split. A season should gauge a club's performance over the space of an entire season. The split means those teams who peak late in the season may be stuck in the lower divisions despite having more points than teams in the upper divisions.

 

I've always hated the SPL split. This double split will just be  even more shite.

 

The best leagues in world don't split. Why should we?

[glasgow sheep]

I hate the split. A season should gauge a club's performance over the space of an entire season. The split means those teams who peak late in the season may be stuck in the lower divisions despite having more points than teams in the upper divisions.

 

I've always hated the SPL split. This double split will just be  even more shite.

 

The best leagues in world don't split. Why should we?

 

The best league's in the world are in countries of 40,50, 60 Million folk.

We have 5million people in this country, we have about 20 Full time clubs.

We do not have the population nor the number of full time clubs to support a top league of 16 teams. 

Countries of similar size to us have smaller leagues.

Below are countries with populations of between 4Million and 7Million (

 

 

(from smallest to biggest)

Croatia (pop 4M) - 12 teams (play 33 games, 3 relegated, just moved from 16-team league)

Ireland  - 12 teams (just increased from 8, 1 down, 1 playoff)

Georgia - 12 teams (split after 22 games into what looks like an 8-8-

Norway - 16 teams (play 30 games, 2 relegated, 1 playoff)

SCOTLAND (pop 5.2M)

Denmark - 12 teams, (play 33 games, 2 relegated)

Finland  - 12 teams (play 33 games, 1 relegated)

Slovakia - 12 teams (play 33 games, 1 relegated)

Switzerland - 10 teams (play 36 games, 1 relegated)

Serbia (pop 7.5M) - 16 teams (play 30 games, 2 relegated)

Bulgaria 16 teams (play 30 games, 4 relegated)

Austria 10 teams (play 36 games, 1 relegated)

Azerbaijan 12 teams ( 1 relegated, 1 playoff)

Sweden 16 teams (30 games, 1 relegated, 1 playoff)

Hungary 16 teams (30 games, 2 relegated)

Belarus 12 teams (33 games, 1 relegated, 1 playoff)

Portugal 16 teams (30 games, 2 relegated)

Czech Republic (pop 10M) 16 teams (30 games, 2 relegated)

 

10 leagues with 10 or 12 teams

7 Leagues 16 teams, all except Norway with larger populations than us.

 

[glasgow sheep]

More details, all of which sound very positive in my mind:

 

 

  PROPOSED SCOTTISH LEAGUE RESTRUCTURE

•     SPL proposal is for a 12-12-18 structure
  
•     Top two leagues to split into three leagues of eight after 22 matches then play a further seven home and seven away games
  
•     Leagues will be called Premier Division, Championship and National League
  
•     Top eight teams to play for title and European places; middle eight to contest promotion and relegation in and out of Premier Division; bottom eight to decide who drops into National League
  
•     11 out of 12 SPL clubs need to vote in favour of plans, while the proposal requires approval of 23 out of 30 SFL clubs
  
•     One league body to replace SPL and SFL
  

 

Plans for Scottish league reform will see stadium rules relaxed   

By Jim Spence BBC Sport   

 

Top-flight rules requiring 6,000 covered seats and under-soil heating are to be scrapped under the proposed new set-up for Scottish football.

 

And artificial surfaces could appear in the top league, with two clubs contemplating installing them.

   

Plans seen by BBC Scotland will reduce the licensing criteria for clubs in the two top divisions to bronze level.

That means "adequate pitch protection", namely pitch covers, will replace the need for under-soil heating.    There will also be the possibility of short-term derogation for those clubs who currently fall short of meeting bronze level; meaning they could compete in the top leagues while bringing their facilities up to standard.

 

The Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League, in conjunction with the Scottish Football Association, have struck a merger deal in principle that would see a 12-12-18 set-up complete with mid-season splits and end-of-term play-offs.

 

Speaking earlier this week, Raith Rovers chairman Turnbull Hutton hinted at a relaxation on stadium regulations.

    "The dawning reality from the SPL is that the criteria for stadiums are going to have to be tempered with some realism," he said.

    "There has been millions wasted on infrastructure for a bankrupt football set-up just to tick a box on the old SPL check-list."

 

It has also emerged that the club winning the title will give up £315,000 from their prize money which presently stands at £2.7m, with the runners-up also surrendering a substantial sum from the £2.4m currently on offer.

The biggest clubs have agreed to the cuts to fund the proposed changes and ensure a fairer distribution of cash throughout the divisions.

 

The winners of this season's First Division will pick up £68,000.

If the proposed changes are voted through, the winners of the new second tier stand to earn £387,000.

 

To offset the financial hardship of relegation, given the possibility of up to four clubs being relegated each season, an advance of £200,000 will be made to each club dropping out of the top league at the beginning of the first season following their relegation.

 

After two rounds of fixtures which are due to culminate with New Year derbies, the top two leagues would split into three sections of eight for two further rounds of matches.

The top eight will contest the title and European places, the middle eight would play-off to decide which sides would start the following season in the first or second tier and matches in the bottom eight would determine which sides were to be relegated to the bottom tier of 18.

  http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/65241000/jpg/_65241021_pyramid.jpg[/img]     

 

The winners of the "play-off" eight and the "Championship" eight will receive a trophy or a pennant.

The clubs finishing first and second in the National league of 18 will be promoted, with the four teams below involved in play-offs with those finishing fifth and sixth in the Championship eight.

 

From season 2014/15, the bottom two from the National league will be relegated and replaced by sides from an unspecified set-up that will involve the Highland League, Juniors and the South of Scotland League.

   

The document outlining the changes says: "These proposals... will ensure a dramatic, exciting league with meaningful matches at all levels and at all points of the season."

 

The proposed voting structure in the new set-up would see Premier clubs having three votes, with those in the Championship receiving two votes and National league clubs getting one vote.

 

An independent executive chairman would have the casting vote in the event of a stalemate.

July League Cup games are also under consideration, with the league programme to start at the beginning of August.

 

The SFL will put the plans to its clubs later this month, with 22 of the 29 full members needing to give their formal approval. Rangers, as associate members, do not have voting rights.

SPL clubs, who put forward the 12-12-18 blueprint, will also have a formal vote, with an 11-1 majority required.

[glasgow sheep]

Lastly, for now, stolen from P&B and an excellent post highlighting the potential benefits.  These reasons, along with the fairer cash distribution and removal of ground criteria (see above) means I'm more inclined to vote in favour of this:

 

Although the battle for the title will be no more exciting I'd still say the top 8 is an improvement on the current top 6. It makes the fixture list completely fair with equal numbers of home/away games etc, it also gives 2 extra teams a chance to make it into the top group - under usual circumstances St. Mirren would have almost no chance of making the top 6 but a top 8 place is more achievable. You'll see Celtic/OF having to face their 6/7 closest rivals in the last 14 games of the season which might just make the league a bit tighter, I know the same goes for all the teams but I'd be more confident of seeing someone put up a challenge if it was likely/guaranteed that the OF faced 2 trips to Pittodrie, Tynecastle, Easter Road etc rather than an extra trip to The Falkirk Stadium etc. Perhaps I'm clutching at straws just a bit.

 

I don't see any reason why the first half of the season would be a terror ride, even if a team does fall into the middle group they've still got 14 games to save themselves. Although the top 8 will be the main prize dropping into the middle 8 might have it's perks if you're going to get Renfrewshire/Fife/Ayrshire derbies etc. The argument about youth development is one you get a lot with regards the fear of relegation but going back to the year when Gretna were doomed by Xmas, St. Mirren felt it necessary to give Jim Hamilton another 18 months in the SPL. Both St. Mirren and Kilmarnock were saved by Gretna's financial woes but I don't recall either team being particularly innovative with team selections or playing styles, in fact iirc the football got worse as the season went on. It was actually Gretna who gave youth a chance, through necessity, and the likes of Kyle Naughton got their breaks. Management team, club policy, and finances will affect youth development much more than the threat of relegation. Overall these plans should take away some of the fear of relegation, more money is going into the second tier and even if a club is relegated after 22 games they could be back playing SPL teams again. As things stand if a club like Killie were relegated it would be complete and utter financial catastrophe, with the chances of bouncing straight back up pretty slim. Under the 8-8-8 system, there isn't as big a financial hit and getting back up looks a lot more do-able.

 

Where these proposals get a bit messy is the bottom 8. How many relegation places are there between the Championship and the National League? Are we just moving financial catastrophe and protectionism down a tier? I'd hope they'd have 2 teams being relegated automatically with another being involved in a playoff with 3/4/5 in the National League and no unnecessary ground restrictions, anything less than this and that bottom 8 will be absolute murder with 5/6 teams basically playing friendlies for the second half of the season.

 

Overall though the early signs are positive. You've got one governing body, equal home and away fixtures, more money going to the lower leagues, the potential for the leagues to be significantly freshened each year with as many as 4 new teams, potential for more derby matches, more trophies for smaller clubs and all this without diluting the quality of the top league or losing the 'glamour ties' that broadcasters crave.

 

As for freshening things up you got that right; if we'd had this system for the last 10 seasons 15 different clubs would have played in the Top 8 (including St. Mirren just last season and Falkirk a couple times) and only Celtic would have a perfect appearance record as opposed to just 9 in the top six.

 

The middle eight would have been even better with potential appearances by QotS, Airdrie Utd and Clyde along with the usual suspects of Morton, Hamilton etc. How would the finances of these clubs have been changed if it had happened 10 years ago?

[tlg1903]

Yeah it certainly sounds better than what we have that's for sure, best bit is the hun's don't want it but have no say 

[tom_widdows]

i wonder if the new stadium rules will mean they still have to be all seated but clubs can set their own capacities based on their needs, or will standing areas be allowed to return/ be retained?

[glasgow sheep]

i wonder if the new stadium rules will mean they still have to be all seated but clubs can set their own capacities based on their needs, or will standing areas be allowed to return/ be retained?

 

The clubs did say last season that they were going to look at "safe standing", which I think won't include, for example, Crapiellow.  However that discussion inevitably has been forgotten about in the last year of hun machinations and league reconstruction.

[Madbadteacher]

Far from perfect, but then again what is?

Better than what we have especially with a slightly fairer split of the dosh.

 

[maverick sheep]

18 teams. Fuck the rest of this unsubstainable, embarrasingly convaluted bullshit.

 

Piss up. Brewery.

[tom_widdows]

All this talk about meaningless games

 

 

Perhaps they need to spice things up a bit.

 

 

Top 3 or 4 get into europe (depending on coefficient)

 

 

3 Teams go down

4th & 5th bottom teams in 2 leg play offs playoff with teams finishing 4th and 5th top in division 1

 

and spot prizes for the others announced completely at random - Winners of todays match will get £10k to give to their local charity, or get additional funding for their youth set up, or will get vouchers for coach and train travel for their fans heading to the next away game,

 

 

You could turn up for a seemingly dull mid table match against say Queen of the South and suddenly discover that if your team wins, you and all your other fellow fans will be put into a draw to either get to, or nominate someone to kick Kyle Lafferty in the nuts like this

[maverick sheep]

I like that tam.

 

Thing is, make the whole thing socialist and the success of a club will directly feed in to social projects. It's how sport should be. Feed the grassroots and then feed off the grassroots. Anything's better than our current system where vast amounts flow into pockets and aren't retained in the game or passed on to society. Football is basically a tax on the common man for the benefit of the already wealthy. Something has to change.

[Kowalski]

PETERHEAD manager Jim McInally has called on supporters of Third Division clubs to take legal action against the Scottish football authorities if the contentious 12-12-18 league reconstruction proposal is put in place for the start of next season.

 

The former Scotland midfielder is incensed that his team’s bid for promotion to the Second Division via the current play-off system may be rendered irrelevant by the immediate implementation of an 18-club National League for 2013-14.

 

McInally’s comments came as significant doubts began to emerge over whether the Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League will receive the support they require from member clubs to push through the 12-12-18 plan which was ?announced last week in conjunction with the Scottish FA.

 

The SPL are scheduled to meet on 28 January with an 11-1 vote in favour needed to back the change, but Dundee United chairman Stephen Thompson and St Mirren chairman Stewart Gilmour have both expressed reservations about the set-up, which ?is unpopular with supporters.

 

SFL clubs are due to gather on 31 January to consider the proposal. With Rangers ineligible to vote as associate members, 22 of the remaining 29 SFL clubs are needed to support it.

 

McInally, whose Peterhead side are currently third in the Third Division and on course for a play-off place, believes supporters of clubs in the bottom tier will have been paying for admission to matches ?under false pretences if 12-12-18 becomes a reality as soon as next season.

 

“If this league is made to be meaningless I would be one of many who would be upset,” said McInally. “If it does happen, I would hope that the fans would take the SFA, the SPL and the SFL to court as they have paid good money for something that would become a non-event.

 

“Supporters are the most important people in the game but they are not treated like that as TV companies run the game. Supporters should have a bigger say.

 

“The Third Division is a brilliant league apart from Rangers, who are running away with things as expected. It is really competitive and the football has been good and the clubs in the division should be proud of the football they have played this season. It should not become a non-event to suit someone else’s agenda.

 

“The Third Division clubs have enjoyed Rangers being there and the Second Division clubs will do so next year, with the First Division clubs doing so the following year. If clubs do things right, they will make more money from two home games against Rangers than they will through any new package.

 

“This is an SPL-driven change and the clubs in the SFL should be against it. I’m mad about it. But we’ve got to take it on the chin, because we’re a wee diddy team from the Third Division and no-one cares what we think.

 

“Thankfully, Rangers are there. I would like their chief executive Charles Green to get together with the other SFL clubs and put on a show of strength.”

 

There is also anger among SFL clubs over the lack of detailed information provided to them so far about the proposal. ?Cowdenbeath secretary Alex Anderson, whose club will assess the views of their support at a meeting on Thursday night, has written to SFL chief executive David Longmuir to complain about being left out of discussions so far.

 

“We, as a football club, will be asked to vote on an historic change to Scottish football but we have no detail from the SFA or the SFL,” said Anderson. “We can only read in the newspapers and make an opinion on what they are reporting.

 

“The clubs need to know the fine details in this proposal sooner rather than later – a breakdown of finance, ground criteria, etc.”

 

The notion of unity among SPL clubs over the proposal, expressed by their chief executive Neil Doncaster last week when he said all 12 had backed it, has also been called into question.

 

St Mirren chairman Gilmour insists that level of support was only given to look into the 12-12-18 plan, not to give its ?introduction the green light immediately.

 

“Contrary to popular belief, the clubs are not 100 per cent behind this,” said Gilmour. “What we voted on unanimously before was to take it to another level, to fully explore it – no more than that.

 

“We have all still to vote on whether we agree to it and I know a few of us feel that the exploration is a long way from being done.”

 

Sounds like a fucking shambles as usual.  Why try and rush something through that appears to be fairly unpopular amongst large numbers of supporters and now some football club chairmen as well?