Major Restructuring in the Pipeline for SPL

[tom_widdows]

You're both right, neither of which would happen in Scotland.

 

Sure I read or heard somewhere that they arent allowed to have any debt if they play in the top division

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Sure I read or heard somewhere that they arent allowed to have any debt if they play in the top division

 

Must be a relatively new thing if so, given the money problems Dortmund had.

[Ajja]

If they go back to a 10 team league I will give up and never go to another game. Fucking pointless, didn't fucking work in '76 (i remember) nae gonna work now. :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

 

Needs a "senior division 1" of 16 or 18, one "senior division 2" of probably 14. That's 30/32 "senior" teams, probably enough, probably sustainable.

 

Below that, some sort of pyramid structure....Elgin, Peterheid et al may not like it, but split them into HFL, East of Scotland, Souuth of Scotland, and allow the best of the juniors in as well, with some sort of "superleague" between the top 2 from each.

 

Realise we may struggle initially to have 18 competitive teams in the top league, and probably lots of humpings handed out by the of, but make sure it's "untouchable" for a minimum of 7 years. Sponsorship money and TV money split purely on a positional basis (i.e 1st place gets most, 2nd next most etc...) BUT EVERY team in the top 2 leagues gets a guaranteed income of some figure to be set (shortfall to be made up by the government (or the fucking Queen if sport is that important!)).

 

Gradually bring in a wage cap based on AVERAGE turn over of ALL TOP LEAGUE TEAMS (plus maybe allowed one player to be exempt) means the of actually have an interest in the rest of the league being solvent.

 

Dunno how to do it, but we also need to bring down the cost of going to games.

 

Sigh....

 

Let's say for arguments sake that a normal home game represents £50K and an OF home game represents £75K for every club in the league (I know figures vary but in terms of a measurable benchmark or index).

 

10 teams = 18 home games inc 4 home games with OF

(14x£50,000 = £700,000 + 4x£75,000 = £300,000 = £1.0m revenue)

 

16 teams = 15 home games inc 2 home games with OF

(13x£50,000 = £650,000 + 2x£75,000 = £150,000 = £800K revenue)

 

20% reduction in revenue. Arguments about competition, boring football as a result of 4 games a season etc etc etc mean nothing when facing such a drop in revenue.

 

Were you not a maths teacher once ?

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Sigh....

 

Let's say for arguments sake that a normal home game represents £50K and an OF home game represents £75K for every club in the league (I know figures vary but in terms of a measurable benchmark or index).

 

10 teams = 18 home games inc 4 home games with OF

(14x£50,000 = £700,000 + 4x£75,000 = £300,000 = £1.0m revenue)

 

16 teams = 15 home games inc 2 home games with OF

(13x£50,000 = £650,000 + 2x£75,000 = £150,000 = £800K revenue)

 

20% reduction in revenue. Arguments about competition, boring football as a result of 4 games a season etc etc etc mean nothing when facing such a drop in revenue.

 

Were you not a maths teacher once ?

 

A situation where this  is about the only thing to say Ajja. It makes sense to me, football is cyclical, shifting the numbers of teams in the league will achieve fuck all, splitting the league will achieve fuck all. Spending money on facilities and good quality coaching will. If you suddenly drop so much cash you can't do that.

 

The game is pretty bad, cash is tight and it will get tighter so the chances are the game will suffer too, moaning about how many shite teams are in a shite league won't make a lot of difference. Good coaching and good facilities will help more than whatever number you think should be in the league, it has to be our way forward and I think it looks like the folk in charge of developing the future talent at the club seem to know what they are doing, I suppose we just have to trust that the people in charge of the finances do too, but given Milne has already stated his preference for a top 10 then it would appear he has got one small bit correct.

[Kowalski]

Sigh....

 

Let's say for arguments sake that a normal home game represents £50K and an OF home game represents £75K for every club in the league (I know figures vary but in terms of a measurable benchmark or index).

 

10 teams = 18 home games inc 4 home games with OF

(14x£50,000 = £700,000 + 4x£75,000 = £300,000 = £1.0m revenue)

 

16 teams = 15 home games inc 2 home games with OF

(13x£50,000 = £650,000 + 2x£75,000 = £150,000 = £800K revenue)

 

20% reduction in revenue. Arguments about competition, boring football as a result of 4 games a season etc etc etc mean nothing when facing such a drop in revenue.

 

Were you not a maths teacher once ?

 

It's not as simple as that though.  If two thirds of the league are in a relegation battle then crowds might be less than for matches in a larger league with the prospect of more open games.  Less chance of teams parking the bus at Pittodrie in a larger league IMHO.

 

At the end of the day, there are too many unknowns.

[Ajja]

It's not as simple as that though.  If two thirds of the league are in a relegation battle then crowds might be less than for matches in a larger league with the prospect of more open games.  Less chance of teams parking the bus at Pittodrie in a larger league IMHO.

 

At the end of the day, there are too many unknowns.

 

I think it is though, unfortunately. Protecting income is the primary decision making criteria at present.

 

Surely relegation battles bring larger crowds, not smaller ones. Its the dead rubbers, which increase in a 16 team league, that are the real crowd drainers.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

It's not as simple as that though.  If two thirds of the league are in a relegation battle then crowds might be less than for matches in a larger league with the prospect of more open games.  Less chance of teams parking the bus at Pittodrie in a larger league IMHO.

 

At the end of the day, there are too many unknowns.

 

Not much need for the bus at present, a sedan chair would be a bit too mobile for us.

 

The actual quality of the game is terrible though Kow, I think that's probably a bigger short term problem rather than however many teams are in the league dictating tactics at Pittodrie.

[Kowalski]

The quality of games is partly down to teams playing for draws.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Do you think so?

 

I just think it's pish players and poor managment of those pish players.

 

 

[Ajja]

The quality of games is partly down to teams playing for draws.

 

Negative formations, tactics and playing guarded football is a global shift though. It's the modern game, very few clubs and even countries play genuine expansive football regardless of the stakes. Its competitiveness and relevance that brings excitement and crowds.

[coopy100]

Negative formations, tactics and playing guarded football is a global shift though. It's the modern game, very few clubs and even countries play genuine expansive football regardless of the stakes. Its competitiveness and relevance that brings excitement and crowds.

Indeed they are but I thought the old firm were seeing dwindling crowds as well. They are the only two clubs in the league that are truly competitive, with regards to cups and league. I think the quality of fitba on offer also has a large part to play on the amount of fans turning up. I don't think we are going to challenge for the league anytime soon but some decent play for the fans that go may lead to a bit of word of mouth and more fans come back.

[manc_don]

Indeed they are but I thought the old firm were seeing dwindling crowds as well. They are the only two clubs in the league that are truly competitive, with regards to cups and league. I think the quality of fitba on offer also has a large part to play on the amount of fans turning up. I don't think we are going to challenge for the league anytime soon but some decent play for the fans that go may lead to a bit of word of mouth and more fans come back.

 

Indeed, it was why many started to moan about JC, his football was diabolical in his final season. The football in terms of results and play have been in decline since. Hopefully pa broon can reverse the trend somewhat and we may see an increase at the gate. I think we're all in agreement, that the league is only part of the problem which Scottish football faces.

[Ajja]

Indeed they are but I thought the old firm were seeing dwindling crowds as well. They are the only two clubs in the league that are truly competitive, with regards to cups and league. I think the quality of fitba on offer also has a large part to play on the amount of fans turning up. I don't think we are going to challenge for the league anytime soon but some decent play for the fans that go may lead to a bit of word of mouth and more fans come back.

 

I don't think anyone (certainly not me) is suggesting that quality hasn't dropped and that it is affecting crowds all over. The OF are suffering the same thing that all clubs are, other than quality reductions, the economic environment is biting hard and people just don't have the money to attend every game. Ergo, they attend the one's most likely to be competitive.

[caledonia]

Without the OF the TV deal would be worth even less than it is now, and it's not worth very much as it is.  Why would the prices come down if the OF weren't in the league?  If anything, they'd have to go up due to the short fall in TV money and OF gates while still paying our players under their current contracts.

 

Spain and Italy probably already do that. If you're in Spain on a Saturday afternoon, turn a tv on and you'll get EPL games on live, as well as the Sunday matches we get.  But why do they get good gates? Because for teams like Mallorca or Depor, the gate prices are kept reasonable unless Real or Barca come to play.

 

Should the huns game on Sunday not have been on live as there were other Scottish matches on? There wasn't an English game on at that time.

 

It's really easy to blame other people and it seems to be a trait of Scottish people to look down South all the time.  Our game is ding because of our own mistakes, stop blaming England for Scotland's failings. We shouldn't be comparing the SPL to the EPL and we shouldn't be attempting to take away the choice of what football people watch.  I live next to Firhill and it's £17 to get in. £17 for the Scottish First Division. That is horrendous and it has fuck all to do with what's on TV.  Scottish Football is eating itself and it's our own fault.

 

Yes to start with but if more people went to a more competitive league then tv would sure as hell be part of it.

You need to look at the long term when the old firm have gone

 

You have to ask why prices at firhill are £17 maybe its what they need to break even as there is less fans now due to them staying at home watching the English premier league every day

 

 

prices would come down because

1 the share of money would be evenly split and might allow teams to do the odd deal

2 more people would eventually go to games in a competitive league (might take a few years )

3 provincial clubs would not have to compete with the old firm and could cap wages better

4 no old firm (and lets face it they will fuck off first chance they get anyway so lets have it on our terms and not theirs)

 

we can see what will happen they will fuck off but try and leave reserve sides in the premier league so they can still claim the lions share of tv money from here as well

 

I know that with having gone to thousands of games myself that for a start without the old firm it would seem suicide (tv, no real big games, no atmosphere, rivarly etc etc but i think for the long term good of Scottish football it will be good.

All my sons support the dons but other kids on my street support rangers, celtic, man utd and chelsea etc (why is this it must be down to tv because they don't go to the games)

 

 

I have said what i think i respect some of you don't agree but i will never set foot in any 10 team league -this is not the answer

Also what plonker came up with the idea of showing games on a Monday night

 

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Prices won't come down, certainly not because of a "more competitive league", especially if it's still shite. Prices down, less money, less money just compounds the problems already in the game right now.

[coopy100]

I don't think anyone (certainly not me) is suggesting that quality hasn't dropped and that it is affecting crowds all over. The OF are suffering the same thing that all clubs are, other than quality reductions, the economic environment is biting hard and people just don't have the money to attend every game. Ergo, they attend the one's most likely to be competitive.

Indeed they don't have the money but many don't choose to go to games against the teams we generally compete against for league placings etc but do turn up for old firm games who are not our competition so I don't really agree with that. It would seem hatred of the OF brings the crowd out more than the promise of a competitive game. If the general standard of play improved then we would, I am sure, see bigger crowds.

 

I don't think that going to a 10 team league will do anything in the long run except cause an even further erosion of crowd numbers due to fan boredom in playing the same teams over and over again meaning less revenue meaning the fiscal reasoning you are applying to this will be a moot point in a few seasons. I also see that going to a 16 or 18 team league would be financial suicide so that can't be done either.

 

Either way I don't think that this change of numbers will have a big if any, impact and the only thing that will is a competitive league with a good standard of fitba being played week in week out. Anything else is just skirting round the major issue that affects scottish fitba at this point in time.

[Ajja]

Indeed they don't have the money but many don't choose to go to games against the teams we generally compete against for league placings etc but do turn up for old firm games who are not our competition so I don't really agree with that. It would seem hatred of the OF brings the crowd out more than the promise of a competitive game. If the general standard of play improved then we would, I am sure, see bigger crowds.

 

I don't think that going to a 10 team league will do anything in the long run except cause an even further erosion of crowd numbers due to fan boredom in playing the same teams over and over again meaning less revenue meaning the fiscal reasoning you are applying to this will be a moot point in a few seasons. I also see that going to a 16 or 18 team league would be financial suicide so that can't be done either.

 

Either way I don't think that this change of numbers will have a big if any, impact and the only thing that will is a competitive league with a good standard of fitba being played week in week out. Anything else is just skirting round the major issue that affects scottish fitba at this point in time.

 

I think that most teams fans in the SPL believe they are 'competing' with the OF as they are the marker for success. Regardless of how ridiculous this may seem, the OF are the team everyone wants to beat, thus meaning they are the competitive benchmark.

 

The rest of your comments I fully agree with. I don't support a 10 team league as a long term solution but it is the only sensible commercial solution short term.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

I don't get this "playing the same teams over and over again" thing that is supposedly causing boredom, who else should we be playing?

 

As Ajja says, how uncompetitive is the league going to be when there's 6-8 teams with nothing to play for with possibly months left of the season? That's fucking boring and every solution to the lack of income and games from an expanded league are very far from convincing.

 

The managers, coaches and players, who take all the fucking money out of the game have a duty to put something back in, that won't fucking happen either. Poor attitudes on the pitch do not help attitudes from the stand, perhaps the tightening of finances will get a bit more out of lifes coasters.

[coopy100]

I don't get this "playing the same teams over and over again" thing that is supposedly causing boredom, who else should we be playing?

 

As Ajja says, how uncompetitive is the league going to be when there's 6-8 teams with nothing to play for with possibly months left of the season? That's fucking boring and every solution to the lack of income and games from an expanded league are very far from convincing.

 

The managers, coaches and players, who take all the fucking money out of the game have a duty to put something back in, that won't fucking happen either. Poor attitudes on the pitch do not help attitudes from the stand, perhaps the tightening of finances will get a bit more out of lifes coasters.

I get it from the fact that it got very boring before we went to a 12 team league. Familiarity didn't breed contempt. It bred "fuck me it hibs AGAIN." Especially if you were drawn against them in one, or even worse two, of the cups. Of course at this point in time I would be happy to play hibs all the time.

 

I agree that playing for nothing can be boring but when you have nothing to play for at the end of the season you then have an opportunity to bring in some youngsters into the squad to try them out.

 

Or the tightening of finances will just make the league even worse meaning less and less fans turning out to watch an even more overpriced, substandard product.

 

It is pretty much a catch 22 situation and I have no idea on what can be done that all fans will agree on, or even the majority, as the correct way of going forward.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Right now it just doesn't make any sense to change the league structure much, financial suicide.

 

The teams are just going to have to develop and PLAY the products of their youth teams. They'll be too skint to do otherwise and that's no necessarily a bad thing.

[Madbadteacher]

Sigh....

 

Let's say for arguments sake that a normal home game represents £50K and an OF home game represents £75K for every club in the league (I know figures vary but in terms of a measurable benchmark or index).

 

10 teams = 18 home games inc 4 home games with OF

(14x£50,000 = £700,000 + 4x£75,000 = £300,000 = £1.0m revenue)

 

16 teams = 15 home games inc 2 home games with OF

(13x£50,000 = £650,000 + 2x£75,000 = £150,000 = £800K revenue)

 

20% reduction in revenue. Arguments about competition, boring football as a result of 4 games a season etc etc etc mean nothing when facing such a drop in revenue.

 

Were you not a maths teacher once ?

 

Sigh.....Did you not read a complete post once?

 

BUT EVERY team in the top 2 leagues gets a guaranteed income of some figure to be set (shortfall to be made up by the government (or the fucking Queen if sport is that important!)).

 

 

To cover initial (hopefully) drop in revenue til we actually have competitive leagues

 

Oh and I still AM a Maths teacher

[caledonia]

Prices won't come down, certainly not because of a "more competitive league", especially if it's still shite. Prices down, less money, less money just compounds the problems already in the game right now.

Why do you think prices down will mean less money it might mean more fans and more money.

Football managed without big money in the past teams will just have to budget better

A more competitive league = more fans = more money = prices might come down = more fans = more money = better players = not quite so much shite on the park 

[coopy100]

Why do you think prices down will mean less money it might mean more fans and more money.

Football managed without big money in the past teams will just have to budget better

A more competitive league = more fans = more money = prices might come down = more fans = more money = better players = not quite so much shite on the park 

Aye but a £2 change in pricing structure is not going to entice much fans out of the wood work. Even a 25% drop will mean that you need to bring 25% more fans through the gate which also probably wouldn't happen A £10 ticket would probably see an increase in fans but again this would need to be offset with the amount of fans coming through the door. From a financial point of view I don't think it will happen.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Why do you think prices down will mean less money it might mean more fans and more money.

Football managed without big money in the past teams will just have to budget better

A more competitive league = more fans = more money = prices might come down = more fans = more money = better players = not quite so much shite on the park 

 

It just does not work like that and that's been established over and over again in the past.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

Sigh.....Did you not read a complete post once?

 

To cover initial (hopefully) drop in revenue til we actually have competitive leagues

 

Oh and I still AM a Maths teacher

 

And still thoroughly delusional by the looks of things given your government/civil list solution to footballing poverty.