Major Restructuring in the Pipeline for SPL

[Snapper]

Surely the "blazers" can't be that thick (or drunk), or too young to remember the abortion of 76 onward with 10 teams?

 

Or do they think "we", the supporters, are?

 

it was still hailed as a success though for the first 10-15 years having 4 separate teams winning the title (could have been 5 if one of the teams didn't bottle it on the last day).  The whole reason was to increase the quality by getting rid of the 6 lowest diddy teams so that the old-firm wouldn't have it so easy.  However the last 15 years has seen it revert back to same two horse race due to the increased finances that Champions league football brought, along with them getting the lion's share of any TV money.

 

16 teams will only make the 3rd place - 16th place more competitive.  All it does for me is increase the number of games that I wouldn't want to go and see.  Don't know what the ideal solution would be, maybe the old-firm fucking off to England leaving the rest of us with a competitive league until someone else starts to dominate 

[Stuartini]

Noises from the meeting suggesting there will be 2 leagues of 10, but it will all depend how the cash is split up. I don't think there is any magic league size which will suddenly see the tv companies give us extra millions.

 

In all honestly the only way to make the league is to make the, relativity, rich richer (us, hearts, hibs etc) at the expense of the old firm. But that would never happen

[Kowalski]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9336457.stm

 

Scottish Premier League clubs are moving towards a 10-team top tier after appearing to rule out an extension to the current 12-team set-up.

 

All clubs met at Hampden for the first time in the ongoing discussions over league reconstruction.

 

And SPL chairman Ralph Topping said clubs believe that a 16 or 18-team league is not financially viable.

 

A working party has proposed two divisions of 10 and a vote is expected at the next gathering on 17 January.

 

Several managers have expressed doubts about a return to a 10-team top division and many fans are against the idea.

 

Asked if the SPL thought they had persuaded member clubs that a bigger league was not workable, Topping said: "Yes, broadly speaking yes.

 

"If you look at Scottish football, a 16-team league wouldn't work economically and it would have a knock-on effect in terms of the quality of players you can attract.

 

"It's two 10s or the status quo in my view."

 

[Ajja]

So if we go to 10 teams in SPL1 for the season 2012/13 then has there been any suggestion of how the current 12 teams will be reduced to 10 at the end of next season ? If they still allow promotion from Div 1 to SPL1 then that would mean losing 3 teams from the SPL as it currently exists next season. My early tip for the trap door is UTD with Goodwillie leaving at the end of the week (according to SCL) they are going to fall off the pace over the next 18 months. 

[Madbadteacher]

So the bell tolls for 2 leagues of 10, whopee!

 

What next, the SFA to introduce similarly forward looking plans.....the Scottish cup becomes a challenge competition. Teams apply to challenge the current holders (who automatically play in the next final) and play off to meet them in the final. Surely good for some sponsorship there too! 

 

(I realise the SFA is not the SPL, but do any of the governing bodies actually have a clue?)

[kelt]

Proof, were it needed, that football (In Scotland at least) isn't about entertaining the fans.

 

What's the expression?

 

Fuck all y'all.

 

 

[Ajja]

Proof, were it needed, that football (In Scotland at least) isn't about entertaining the fans.

 

What's the expression?

 

Fuck all y'all.

 

Very true. Fans vote for entertainment but businessmen vote for income. Unfortunately, the long game has to give way to the immediate desperation for survival.

 

You taking a break from Mad for the day Kelt ?

[maverick sheep]

Dundee United chief blows apart SPL attempt to claim consensus for 10-team league

 

 

Published Date: 05 January 2011

By Stephen Halliday

 

HOURS after the Scottish Premier League hierarchy claimed that Scottish football has taken a significant stride towards returning to a 10-team top flight yesterday, it emerged last night that up to four clubs could still vote against the proposal.

 

SPL chairman Ralph Topping and chief executive Neil Doncaster emerged from a three-hour meeting of clubs at Hampden yesterday morning to express their optimism that proposals for a new two-tier SPL with 10 teams in each division will be approved by the necessary majority of 11-1 when the clubs reconvene to vote on them on 17 January.

 

But Dundee United chairman Stephen Thompson, who did not attend the meeting, later announced his firm intention to vote against the plan and stated his belief that he will not be alone in his opposition. It is understood Kilmarnock and Inverness are also against the proposal in its current form, and Hearts have yet to be convinced that it merits their support.

 

"We will certainly be voting against it if is the same proposal as before and I'd imagine we won't be the only ones," said Thompson. "I wasn't at the meeting so it is difficult to gauge the mood and how argumentative it was. But the bottom line for me is that I don't think a ten-team league is good for Scottish football."

 

Another club official said: "It's a million miles away from being a done deal. There are people sleepwalking into this."

 

According to Topping and Doncaster, any move to increase the size of the top flight has been ruled out, as have alternative suggestions, put forward by Thompson, which would have involved play-offs at the top of the table to decide the outcome of the championship. If the ten-team league is rejected later this month, the only alternative on the table is the status quo - which looked like a realistic scenario last night.

 

The '10-10' proposals, which also include an earlier start to the season and the re-instatement of a winter break, were compiled by an SPL strategy group comprised of Topping, Doncaster and representatives from Rangers, Celtic, Hibs, Aberdeen, Motherwell and St Mirren.

 

There was initial resentment and objections from the six clubs who were not invited on to the strategy group, which Topping and Doncaster believed had been appeased at a meeting with them on Christmas Eve. Thompson's comments cast fresh uncertainty over the process, however, with considerable differences of opinion clearly still requiring to be addressed before the vote is taken. The SPL hierarchy, however, are more confident than ever that they will get the backing they need.

 

"There is broad acceptance that the strategy group has done some very good work in putting out a package of proposals," said Topping. "There was more positivity than negativity around the table today. On 17 January, we will look to get a broad consensus.

 

We have to bear in mind we need an 11-1 vote. But there is a Plan A at the moment and no Plan B.

 

"Plan A is the proposals put forward by the strategy group and those will be the recommendations we will put on the table. That's a 10-team league with a winter break, earlier start to the season and with promotion/relegation play-offs.

 

"As things stand, that would involve the teams finishing eighth and ninth in the SPL going into the play-offs. The strategy group will have another meeting on that before 17 January and there may be some modifications.

 

"There was rational discussion today about play-offs at the top of the table but it didn't come to anything. It is a non-starter.

 

"In terms of the 10-10 reconstruction, there are a lot of positives in that direction. From an economic point of view, moving to 16 or 18 teams just does not work."

 

Topping defended the decision to initially omit Hearts, Kilmarnock, Dundee United, St Johnstone, Inverness Caledonian Thistle and Hamilton from the strategy group process.

 

"We have been working on this for eight months," he added. "It is normal in any business to set up a sub-committee for this kind of project. The Dickensian way would have been for all 12 clubs to keep meeting constantly on it. If you were to get 12 relatives around the table to decide where you are going on holiday, it would be bloody hard."

 

Topping also rejected claims the SPL are ignoring the views of supporters following a weekend survery which suggested almost 90 per cent of Scottish football fans were opposed to a 10-team league.

 

"We've had discussions with fan groups and we will talk to them more," said Topping. "We will explain our views and the rationale behind the proposals. Once we talk to them, we're finding a greater appreciation of what we are saying about the economic side for each club. We would never wish to ride over the feelings of supporters." 

 

Chief executive Doncaster insisted that the economic case for increasing the size of the top division is simply unsustainable.

 

"Let's look at a 16-team league as an example," said Doncaster. "We'd go from 38 games to 30 games. Just think of the cost of losing four home games for each club.

 

"It then means cutting the cake into 16 slices rather than ten slices, so clearly each club is going to get less money. It would mean just one home game against Celtic and Rangers. It would have a massively detrimental effect on the money each club earns.

 

"The idea of a 16 or 18 team league is superficially attractive. It sounds nice, but the reality is that the finances of clubs would be decimated. From a television point of view, it halves the number of big games we would have to sell."

 

Doncaster denied, however, that the proposed changes are simply designed to protect the interests of the leading clubs. "This is about looking at all of the clubs in Scotland," he countered.

 

"At the moment, so much of the money goes to the top 12 while the other 30 have nothing.

 

"We've had a situation where clubs relegated from the SPL are facing financial oblivion.

 

"This proposal is about protecting those clubs and ensuring money is spread around. The landing has to be much softer when you drop out of the top division. That's why it was so encouraging that we had a broad consensus today that there is a real need for change."

 

If the proposals are approved at the 17 January meeting, talks would then begin with the Scottish Football League to integrate eight of their clubs into the new set-up.

 

It would be scheduled to begin at the start of the 2012-13 season.

 

David Longmuir, the chief executive of the SFL, gave a cautious welcome to the prospect last night.

 

"I'll wait and see what the SPL have got to say to me," said Longmuir.

 

"But I think consensus is always a good thing in football. It's possibly something we need to build on to take the game forward. Provided it is right for the game and none of our clubs are worse off as a result, then there is a mood for change among the SFL members."

 

Longmuir insisted he has no fears about the future of the SFL.

 

"I don't worry about it, no," he replied.

 

"I'm comfortable with the SFL at the moment.

 

"We've got 84 games to re-arrange and a Dundee appeal coming up in the next couple of weeks, so they are the key issues for me at the moment.

 

"But I'm happy to find progress is being made within the SPL if it's for the good of the game."

[kelt]

You taking a break from Mad for the day Kelt ?

 

 

In a manner of speaking 

[s1dnk]

I agree with Thompson but in that article he didn't come up with an alternative.

 

Also imagine holding a meeting, coming out claiming everyone seems to be in agreement and it looks like we're moving to 2 10 team leagues but then half of the chairmen who will vote on this weren't even invited to the discussions. Who is this Doncaster prick anyway? He can fuck right off!

[d0nald0n1]

This is getting pretty worrying and unless the SPL publish their projected figures I don't think they are properly making the case or persuading the fans as they claim they want to. Seems to me they don't care that much and expect to push through whatever they want.

 

Lets take Neil Doncaster's example. He says changing to 16 teams give us 30 games losing 4 home games overall & 1 games at home against each half of the old firm. Hmm ok, so why are we talking about 16 anyway? thats stupid and he knows it. 18 is more sensible. that gives you 34 games, so losing only 2 home games overall as well as the much vaunted 2 old firm games. So he's being a bit selective with his example, no?

 

Then lets say we add in the benefit of the play offs = more games and ones likely to have big crowds so more cash.

Add to that we have a 4 way play off for the european spots played between the teams in places 2-4. This gives you more games, ones which will attract big crowds and also can provide that oh so important old firm game everyone seems to think is the be all end all.

 

How about the TV money is redistributed equally between all sides? Or at least much more equally?

 

Again this balances the loss in revenue from expanding the league.

 

Basically the SPL board argument at the moment appears to be to compare the least financially viable league proposal against their own proposal. ie a straight 16 team league.

 

If Thompson is serious about this rather than just mouthing off he needs to get together with the other chairman who are not keen and make a serious proposal for an alternative.

[coopy100]

How about the TV money is redistributed equally between all sides? Or at least much more equally?

 

Again this balances the loss in revenue from expanding the league.

 

This one point here is a massive downfall. It will mean less money for the old firm. Their attendances are also falling and I can't imagine any of the newly promoted teams in an 18 team league being much of a draw for any of their fans which would mean less revenue for them. Since they make up two of he 12 who need to vote they would vote against and that would scupper any plans.

[d0nald0n1]

Coopy, I think you are correct but they are trying to tell us this is being planned with the best possible long term objectives for scottish football. so to simply vote to split the money between a handful of teams with 2 of those getting 50% between them doesn't ring true with the stated aim here.

 

if this is a case of the OF making the decisions again and the weak chairmen of the other teams simply going along to protect what they have then we really are wasting our time. This is how the SPL was formed and it has been shit since day one and driven loads of fans away.

 

We should all pack in our scottish SPL teams and start supporting local junior, highland or lower league sides instead.

[Ajja]

Pat Nevin was on radio Scotland last night commenting on this. It was very interesting listening. Only caught some of it but he was basically saying that most of the decision makers at the SPL clubs know that a 10 team league is not a solution for the quality of football on offer and the enhancement of the product. The problem is that they just can't make the finances work so they are bound to it as a fix.

 

The bottom line here is that as long as they OF continue to take the lions share of money and success then Scottish football will die a slow and painful death. Even they are going to have to realise that if they keep biting off the hand that feeds them there will soon be no hand.

[coopy100]

The bottom line here is that as long as they OF continue to take the lions share of money and success then Scottish football will die a slow and painful death. Even they are going to have to realise that if they keep biting off the hand that feeds them there will soon be no hand.

They will just play each other 32 times a season then.  Seriously though I still think the old firm view their future outside of the Scottish game. Be that in a North Atlantic or Pan european league or moving own to england. They will continue to bite the hand that feeds them as they don't really care about the rest of scottish fitba IMO. They have the real bagaining power in Scotland with regards to sponsorship and TV deals and they will continue to use that power for their benefit and not the league as a whole. See the farce of making clubs charge their fans more money for the "honour" of playing them for what I feel is at least some proof of this.

[granite sheep]

I'd personally have a premier league of 16 teams, followed by 2 divisions of 12 teams. However, seeing as the folk who run the game only care about money and protecting their incomes, rather than the people who generate that income (ie you and me, the fans), then no surprises, scottish fitba is due to take yet another backwards step with a 10 team league. It seems most of Scottish fitba can't think outside the old firm box. Unfortunately that's unlikely to ever change, the end result is more and more fans will stay away and watch EPL or other, more interesting fitba. And thus due to the shortsighted decision making, fitba is dying on its arse, same as it has been for as long as I can remember, anyways.

[maverick sheep]

Pat Nevin was on radio Scotland last night commenting on this. It was very interesting listening. Only caught some of it but he was basically saying that most of the decision makers at the SPL clubs know that a 10 team league is not a solution for the quality of football on offer and the enhancement of the product. The problem is that they just can't make the finances work so they are bound to it as a fix.

 

The bottom line here is that as long as they OF continue to take the lions share of money and success then Scottish football will die a slow and painful death. Even they are going to have to realise that if they keep biting off the hand that feeds them there will soon be no hand.

 

exactly and this is why markets need regulators. The spl should be the regulators who stop the OF exploiting the market and creating a monopoly. Instead they're just more fat cats who have engineered a means of skimming cream off the top for themselves.

 

Why in the name of loving fuck is this allowed?

 

OT but what is it about Scotland/UK that we let big business repeatedly fuck us? And not just that, but when people protest against any of it, half the folk moaning about the problems jump on the establishment bandwagon to condem/ridicule the protests*. Fucking ashamed sometimes.

 

*by protest i DO NOT refer to virginal twats with post-it notes dancing with glee while things fall apart.

[Stuartini]

Clearly they aren't going to listen to fans so I say fuck it, let's shut everyone else out

 

2 10 teams league the regionalise a'body else. And if they are serious about making it more competitive then for the first 3-5 years all cash split evenly between the top 10. Then in 3-5 years we should be seeing Scottish teams more competitive in Europe and then we can divvy it up more evenly.

 

Full of holes and desperately unfair, but something has to be done.

[Kowalski]

BBC reporting that 4 teams (Killie, ICT, Dundee Utd, Hearts) are against the 10 team league.

 

ICT statement:

 

"Our initial impression was that the SPL Strategy Group was looking to choose between 12 and 14 clubs and it was a big surprise to us and others that they have come forward with a proposal to actually reduce the SPL to 10 clubs.

 

"That is much less attractive to a club like ours and we need to carefully consider the financial implications and what has now been placed on the table.

 

"Our fans are our lifeblood and it is clear that all surveys of supporters show that a 10-team SPL is the least popular option. "

 

[kelt]

Clearly they aren't going to listen to fans so I say fuck it, let's shut everyone else out

 

2 10 teams league the regionalise a'body else. And if they are serious about making it more competitive then for the first 3-5 years all cash split evenly between the top 10. Then in 3-5 years we should be seeing Scottish teams more competitive in Europe and then we can divvy it up more evenly.

 

Full of holes and desperately unfair, but something has to be done.

 

I'm going to go ahead and offer up the Kelt Plan For Footballing Awesome in Scotland. And I'm just going to copy/paste from another site because I'm a lazy fecker....

 

To me, that involves the manner in which the entire league structure currently operates being torn apart and put back together in a very different way... not just altering the number of teams in the top league... which does nothing but, well, change the number of teams in the top league. 10, 14, or 16 teams, imo, is about as radical as putting a product in new packaging and emblazoning the packaging with the words NEW FORMULA, when if fact absolutely f**k all is going to change regards the OF domination, the gulf in finances and the continued apathy towards the sport.

 

An East Coast and West Coast split would be a genuine and positive step.

 

East Coast League

Aberdeen

Dundee United

Hearts

Hibs

Dundee

Inverness

St Johnstone

Dunfermline

Raith Rovers

Falkirk

 

West Coast League

Rangers

Celtic

Motherwell

Kilmarnock

St Mirren

Hamilton

Partick Thistle

Morton

QotS

Airdrie United

 

The Scottish Cup remains a national competition.

 

The League cup becomes a regional competition. Two league cups, one East Coast, one West.

 

The Winners of each league play off for the title, and as such gains admittance to the Champion's league as national winner (whether that winner then has to play off against, say, the Latvian champs to gain entry to the CL would be up to UEFA. The EC/WC playoff loser becomes runner up.

 

Travel is largely reduced for fans, as the leagues are regional.

 

Promotion and relegation would involve lower tier regional leagues... assuming relegation is retained. Personally I'd like to see relegation scrapped. With no fear of relegation the top teams will be more prone to play attacking football. The worst that can happen is finishing bottom and losing out on prize money.

 

The West Coast teams have the benefit of Old Firm gates, likely more sponsorship and probably more media attention.

 

The East Coast is massively more competitive, leading to larger gates and an increase in gate money. With no OF demanding larger chunks of prize money, gouging an extra 5% on ticket sales and the potential for any of the teams to win the league, the East Coast league benefits from the departure of the Scum and their bigotry.

[Madbadteacher]

Why not go for the 2 leagues of 10..........but on an equal status

 

Ra OF v the bottom 8 of "the 20", the next 10 (teams that finish 3rd to 12th in the SPL form that league) play a league of ten.

 

Winners ONLY of the 2 leagues play off for the CL spot (that'll mean only ONE of the bigot brothers), next 2 teams in each league have a 6 team round robin to qualify for any 3rd (or more) European spot.

 

Bottom 2 teams in each league have a 4 team play off "losing" 2 to be relegated to the pit of hell! "Winning" 2 teams swap with bottom 2 of OF league each season, gonna get humped, but gonna get OF cash games....which would you want?

 

Plenty late season excitement, guaranteed at least one non OF club gets a share of EUFA pot of cash.

[caledonia]

In a manner of speaking 

 

How long is it for 

[d0nald0n1]

So have we finally reached the stage where its just jack in scottish football completely because its only being run for the benefit of 2 teams? Or is it just me on my period today?

 

 

[caledonia]

So have we finally reached the stage where its just jack in scottish football completely because its only being run for the benefit of 2 teams? Or is it just me on my period today?

 

Nothing new its always been run for only the bigot brothers

 

[d0nald0n1]

In fact here is a suggestion for Doncaster, Topping and the SPL Chairmen.

 

How about:

 

18 team SPL1

Aberdeen

Hearts

Hibs

Dundee Utd

Kilmarnock

St Mirren

St Johnstone

Inverness

Motherwell

Hamilton

Dundee

Falkirk

Dunfermline

Raith Rovers

Queen of the South

Partick Thistle

Ross County

Morton

 

The rest below this can regionalise or do whatever but must form a pyramid including the juniors, highland, amateurs leagues etc.