Sit down and please pretend you like the opposition

[BobbyBiscuit]

Jeanette Findlay, of the Celtic Trust, made the controversial claim to the Scottish Parliament's justice committee while giving evidence about Alex Salmond's planned crackdown on football-related bigotry.

 

"It's never been used to refer to a Protestant or any member of any religious group — it refers to a Rangers supporter," she insisted.

 

"And up until a few years ago Rangers supporters referred to themselves as Huns. It doesn't have any religious connotation whatsoever, it never has."

 

Ms Findlay compared it to Celtic fans being known as Tims, which she didn't find offensive, the committee heard.

 

"Sometimes it refers to Hearts because we call them the wee Rangers," she added. Her comments came as former Scotland player Pat Nevin revealed he had stopped taking his son to Celtic matches because of sectarian chanting in praise of the IRA.

 

Mr Nevin, who played in the 1980s and 90s for clubs including Chelsea, Everton and Motherwell, said he had been "driven from the club he loves" and hoped "good legislation would go through".

 

Meanwhile, Mark Dingwall, board member of the Rangers Supporters Trust, said Ibrox fans felt particularly targeted by the proposed new laws.

 

"What our fans and organisations have started to say is if we have to clean up our act, everyone else has to do the same."

 

"Fair game"

 

"So, therefore, everything that is offensive, by any football club, whether it's under regional rivalry, or under sectarian rivalry, or whether it's just winding up the opposition, then it's all fair game because if it's going to happen to us it's got to happen to everybody."

 

Derek Robertson, a former communications director at Dundee United, also gave evidence to the committee in his current role with supporters group ArabTRUST.

 

He urged for a clearer definition of what constituted a sectarian crime and claimed growing up in Dundee he had "never been exposed" to sectarianism.

 

Greig Ingram, board member of the Aberdeen FC Trust, also questioned the wisdom of criminalising chants without a specific definition of what was not acceptable.

 

He said: "Would somebody chanting about my predilections for alleged activities with farmyard animals be offensive?"

 

Fans of Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts football clubs were also represented at the session. And Abertay University sociology and criminology lecturer Dr Stuart Waiton said the bill risked creating an "authoritarian and illiberal society".

 

He also repeated claims, first made in The Courier, that the resultant bill, if enacted, risks being seen as a "snobs' law".

 

"Snobs' law"

 

"We have a form of west-end dinner party etiquette being demanded at football. This is genuinely what's happening. This is a snobs' law, potentially. We're targeting, specifically, football fans."

 

The committee has already heard evidence from security chiefs at both Rangers and Celtic as well as Lord Advocate Frank Mulholland and the chairman of the Scottish Police Federation.

 

The bill will create two offences on football-related behaviour regarded as offensive and threatening. One deals with disorder around matches, with the other relating to serious internet threats.

 

The legislation comes in the wake of high-profile incidents of football related sectarianism.

 

The SNP originally wanted to pass the bill before parliament went into recess ahead of the football season kicking off.

 

However, opposition parties raised concerns over the speed of change and First Minister Alex Salmond agreed it would not be rushed through.

 

Instead, the plans were opened up to further scrutiny with an aim to be in place on January 1.

 

I think this really could be it for Scottish football.

 

Crowds at every ground have been dwindling for years, and now, to add to the all-seater, soulless stadia, you won't be allowed to dis-like the opposition (if that nuggett Dingwall has his way) or even think you may have some ill-feeling towards them.

 

Even Aberdeen-Huns (arrest me now!) games at Pittodrie are no fun anymore as they've managed to zap the life out of them with early kick offs.  Now you won't even be able to call Lee McCulloch a "dirty scab faced bastard vermin cunt" without ending up in the dock on a Monday morning and some moron with a red hand of ulster scarf round his neck crying to the Police about being mortally offended at it all.

 

They're doing everything they can to kill the game, but as long as no one gets offended it'll be ok...

[jmo]

Is what the person from the Celtic Board said really that controversial? I've never heard the term 'hun' refer to protestant people, only ever to Rangers fans or 'diet hun' to refer to Hearts fans.

 

It does seem a little silly to create a law prohibiting football fans from singing 'offensive songs', as the article alluded to would opposition fans calling us 'Sheep Shagging Bastards' be considered offensive by the authorities even though I highly doubt any Aberdeen fans actually find that offensive. Would it include the songs sung by Aberdeen fans at Tynecastle a few weeks ago with the 'paedo' lyrics? Or is it only for sectarian or racist singing?

[BobbyBiscuit]

Is what the person from the Celtic Board said really that controversial? I've never heard the term 'hun' refer to protestant people, only ever to Rangers fans or 'diet hun' to refer to Hearts fans.

 

It does seem a little silly to create a law prohibiting football fans from singing 'offensive songs', as the article alluded to would opposition fans calling us 'Sheep Shagging Bastards' be considered offensive by the authorities even though I highly doubt any Aberdeen fans actually find that offensive. Would it include the songs sung by Aberdeen fans at Tynecastle a few weeks ago with the 'paedo' lyrics? Or is it only for sectarian or racist singing?

 

what she said was spot on, "hun" isn't a reference to religion or beliefs, just Rangers fans.

 

Dingwall, the hun, with whom I've unfortunately had some dealings with in the past and is a monutmental cretin, wants all "offensive" singing, shouts etc stopped as the poor wee huns are being picked on, or so he says.

[alfromsleep]

In Dingwall not the fud that used to run the Swallow Swallow footiemad board?

[BobbyBiscuit]

the very same.

[tlg1903]

This is actually getting out of hand.  A campaign that started out with honourable intentions is now getting perverted left right and centre by people that have little concept of what being a football fan actually entails.  It reminds me a little of sheila brovloski in south park the movie saying gratuitous violence on tv is fine providing there are no potty mouths to teach little kiddies nasty words. 

All that is being focused on is the negatives of the tribal atmosphere created at a football match.  No one has stopped to consider whether or not a rousing rendition of richard gough child molester, charlie mulgrew child neglector, If i had the wings of a sparrow, we hate glasgow rangers etc etc actually has a positive influence on society.  Win lose or draw i usually come away from a game with the satisfaction of at least venting my weekly frustrations in a vocal form.  This then leads me to being more productive in my day to day affairs surely.  I honestly dont think opposition football fans give a flying fuck at the nasty words that get sung about them from the opposing stand on a match day so why is every one else? 

Its become a political battlefield now.  Politicians talking about the behaviour of football in this way is as frustrating to me as fucking rugby fans telling me through the world cup that ghana should have been put through anyway when suarez handled the ball on the line.  My response was you know nothing about the game so what the fuck gives you the right to tell me how the game should be ruled?  Cunts the lot of them

[alfromsleep]

From the sounds of it, what is pretty much an old firm problem is going to affect the rest of scottish football, and as Bobby says, the clock may be ticking on the game in this country.

 

Personally, i've not been able to worked up about a match in ages (League Cup semi last season excluded). It may be due to the lack of booze I drink pre match these days but most likely just general apathy. FFS, I get more worked up for watching UFC events now than the football, shite eh?

[tom_widdows]

A campaign that started out with honourable intentions is now getting perverted left right and centre by people that have little concept

 

See 'The human rights act'

See laws regarding working with, or supervising children

see the various aspects of health & safety law

See 'no win no fee' lawyers

 

[BobbyBiscuit]

From the sounds of it, what is pretty much an old firm problem is going to affect the rest of scottish football,

 

Aye, it's an OF problem that has been there for years and years so why the urgency to eradicate it now? The only thing I can think of is that because of more live games, annonymous internet postings available for all to read world wide etc, certain politicians are shiting it over how we look to the rest of the world.

 

The fact is when it comes to anything that is so ingrained, if it's what you honestly believe then these things won't change. Getting through to people who hate something for hate's sake or because it's bordering on family tradition, is nigh on impossible. A far better use of time and resources would be to attempt to improve the country's relationship with drink, as that's when a lot of these issues arise - a prime example of this being the domestic abuse stat after OF games... people aren't abusing their partners because they support Celtic or Rangers, they're doing it because they have a chronic relationship with drink.

[baggy89]

Surely the issue is sectarianism not name calling.

 

"Officer arrest that man he has suggested that I ate a rodent for high tea yesterday evening and that I am unaware of what soap is! I can assure you this is quite untrue! I have eaten battered sausage and chips from the free food receptacle out the back of the chipper washed down with a bottle of Buckfast everyday this week and I once saw some of this soap stuff he mentioned in the bathroom facilities in the job centre."

 

How difficult is it to understand?

 

Dirty Fenian Fucker - Sectarian and possibly offensive, but ultimately the kind of nonsense that gives Scottish football a bad name.

 

Sheep Shagging Bastard - Inoffensive, no mock outrage here.

 

Hun cunt - I'll let you make up your own minds...

[Superstar Tradesman]

Personally I'd lock the fucker in a stairwell and you know the rest. 

 

Hud 'at.

[tlg1903]

Aye, it's an OF problem that has been there for years and years so why the urgency to eradicate it now? The only thing I can think of is that because of more live games, annonymous internet postings available for all to read world wide etc, certain politicians are shiting it over how we look to the rest of the world.

 

The fact is when it comes to anything that is so ingrained, if it's what you honestly believe then these things won't change. Getting through to people who hate something for hate's sake or because it's bordering on family tradition, is nigh on impossible. A far better use of time and resources would be to attempt to improve the country's relationship with drink, as that's when a lot of these issues arise - a prime example of this being the domestic abuse stat after OF games... people aren't abusing their partners because they support Celtic or Rangers, they're doing it because they have a chronic relationship with drink.

 

this

[BigAl]

Aye, it's an OF problem that has been there for years and years so why the urgency to eradicate it now? The only thing I can think of is that because of more live games, annonymous internet postings available for all to read world wide etc, certain politicians are shiting it over how we look to the rest of the world.

 

The fact is when it comes to anything that is so ingrained, if it's what you honestly believe then these things won't change. Getting through to people who hate something for hate's sake or because it's bordering on family tradition, is nigh on impossible. A far better use of time and resources would be to attempt to improve the country's relationship with drink, as that's when a lot of these issues arise - a prime example of this being the domestic abuse stat after OF games... people aren't abusing their partners because they support Celtic or Rangers, they're doing it because they have a chronic relationship with drink.

 

Absolutely bang on Bobby. 

 

 

The original article just highlighted how sick and deluded these bastards are...... always got to think they are the ones that are being persecuted, whilst the other half gets away with murder.

 

There is no difference in my world between them, both two cheeks of the same arse, and been Scotland's shame since the late 19th century. I fear their issues are far too deep rooted to simply go away overnight, and that no legislation will make any real difference.

 

 

[tlg1903]

I'm fed up pretending I like other Aberdeen fans never mind pretending I like the opposition

 

 

its funny cos its true!

 

[maverick sheep]

The majority are always responsible for the conduct over all. What matters is not forcing the majority out of the game. Pricing, kick-off times etc are certainly trying it.

 

When kids try to start up the ibrox disaster song, it's aberdeen fans who shut them up before stewards, opposition fans or police have even noticed it. They learn the lesson and know not to do it again.

 

that kind of singing is unacceptable and we all reckognise that. a twatty law won't do a fucking thing to help. and 9 times out of 10 would only cause more problems than it solved.

 

as has been said, this all seems to be driven by pathetic cunts who want to outlaw any form of speech that criticises or takes the piss out of their own wee club.

 

and to be fair to the aberdeen lad, if they don't outlaw 'sheep-shagger' comments in the same way as hun, tim etc, then it's prejudiced, and if they DO, it's fucking laughable PC bullshit!

 

SHEEP SHAGGIN BASTARDS. WE'RE ONLY...

[dave_min]

SHEEP SHAGGIN BASTARDS. WE'RE ONLY...

 

Bigot.

 

 

[maverick sheep]

Bigot.

 

 

I assume people singing about glasgow slums will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law...even when it's a weegie who was just singing along... 

[dave_min]

 

I assume people singing about glasgow slums will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law...even when it's a weegie who was just singing along... 

 

I don't think it counts as it's true 

[maverick sheep]

I don't think it counts as it's true 

 

who needs bins?

 

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/editor-s-picks/giant-rats-plague-south-side-park-1.1122256

[caledonia]

Also i think the police or parliament will want to make the law so as its not just about Rangers or Celtic,  they will want other clubs involved so to speak to get the message across that it applies to everyone.

So you can bet Aberdeen fans will be among the first charged

[Superstar Tradesman]

You've got to ask the question what good it'll do in the long run?

 

I'm fucked if I know.

 

I've shouted, bawled, screamed abuse and had a right go at folk inside the confindes of a football stadium.  Some of it 'witty banter' and some of it outright rage and in bad taste.

 

Game ends, walk out the doors and past the same set of fans and 99.9% of the time it's all forgotten about and they're merely a group of likeminded fans also making their way home or to the pub to discuss the game.

 

There's far too much dumbing down of things these days and football is a great way to show emotion, be that on or off the park.  If we lose that then we'll all have to channel that anger, aggression, frustration, happiness and freedom of expression elsewhere.

 

Those fires still burning in London?

[BigAl]

I'm fed up pretending I like other Aberdeen fans never mind pretending I like the opposition

 

Frankly Jager min, I reckon most of the time you don't like yerself, never mind any other cunt

 

[BigAl]

That Jagerdeen cunt can think what he likes of me - I'll pay as much attention to him as I do to any other cunt 

 

 

You suffering from a dose of the Andy Goram's 

[tlg1903]

 

You suffering from a dose of the Andy Goram's 

[mizer]

Prosecutors are set to appeal the not guilty verdict in the trial of a Celtic fan caught on camera singing a pro-terrorist song at Dundee's Dens Park.

Dion McLeish was cleared at Dundee Sheriff Court of inciting public disorder during Dundee's Boxing Day match against Celtic.

Sheriff Richard Davidson said the legislation under which he was being tried was "horribly drafted".

The Crown Office has confirmed it will appeal the sheriff's decision.

Mr McLeish, 20, from Clydebank, was filmed by police officers at Dundee's Dens Park ground on Boxing Day singing the song "Roll of Honour", which celebrates IRA and INLA hunger strikers during the Troubles.

But Sheriff Richard Davidson ruled during the trial that police officers could not give "opinion" evidence that the song was linked to proscribed terrorist organisations, and then described the new anti-sectarianism legislation McLeish was tried under as "horribly drafted".

The Crown Office and Scottish government have insisted the laws were "working well" and "taking a hard line on sectarianism".