Scottish Independence

[glasgow sheep]

As all the fuss is about the procedure at the moment read this elsewhere (admittedly likely biased source)

 

I was listening to Matt Qvortrup on Radio Scotland. He’s considered a world expert on referenda, independence movements etc. His view is exactly as I understood it.

 

The legality of the referendum is irrelevant, as is whether Westminster deems the result valid.

 

The validity of the referenda and Scotland becoming independent is a decision for the international community.

 

Whoever runs the referendum is meaningless. So long as it is viewed by the international community as being free and fair, with a clear question to which the majority (50%+1) voted Yes, then they will recognise Scotland as an independent state, with Scotland taking its seat at the UN etc. What London thinks doesn’t matter one iota.

 

Also, historically referenda are organised by the people of the country wishing to be independent as it is for them to make that decision. This falls within the principle of ‘self-determination’, as covered by the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The Council of Europe has similar provisions.

 

All this talk of court cases preventing the Scottish Government holding a referendum is plain nonsense. I could organise one myself so long as it was done properly, it would be recognised. The fact that the SNP are the democratically elected government of Scotland makes it super-legit in the eyes of the international community.

[Superstar Tradesman]

I'd always sat on the fence but am increasingly of the opinion why not.  Financially I suspect some years as a Nation we'll be a bit better off, some years a bit worse off, but don't believe that we'll be a land of milk and honey but then equally the idea that Scotland uniquely in the World couldn't exist and would fall to pieces just by declaring Independence seems farcical.  For me it's probably more about self determination and the ability to make decisions most other countries can.  Also I am increasingly tired and resentful of living in a country that is seemingly run for the benefit of international financial institutions, while operating under the misapprehension that we have a divine right to tell the rest of the world what to do while sending our bloated armed forces around the world to enforce our will.  The biggest worry for the establishment will not be who gets the oil but whether England/Wales/NI could hold onto their UN veto and seat on the Security Council and their EU veto and benefits.  I couldn't give a fuck about that and would be more comfortable in a Scotland who operated within its level of influence and worked co-operatively with our European and Scandinavian neighbours rather than like a boorish anachronistic imperialistic monarchistic state

 

[Tyrant]

I wil benefit you financially... and since I'm always right aboot athin - that's all the convincing you should need 

 

You will? Would this involve sodomy? If so as with the vote I am currently undecided.

 

Why do we think Cameron is trying to rush through the vote? Does he think we're all in favour and want rid of us and we'll change our mind? Or does he think we'll vote to leave if we vote now and he wants to retain Scotland?

[mizer]

 

 

Why do we think Cameron is trying to rush through the vote? Does he think we're all in favour and want rid of us and we'll change our mind? Or does he think we'll vote to leave if we vote now and he wants to retain Scotland?

 

He is using it to bring up financial insecurity which it is apparently doing to Scotland and the UK. People are not investing money apparently.....or thats what their mates from Oxbridge are telling them. The spiralling UK debt the tories are flailing about with has absolutely nothing to do with anything they are talking about.

[glasgow sheep]

You will? Would this involve sodomy? If so as with the vote I am currently undecided.

 

Why do we think Cameron is trying to rush through the vote? Does he think we're all in favour and want rid of us and we'll change our mind? Or does he think we'll vote to leave if we vote now and he wants to retain Scotland?

 

Simple.

Much like the AV referendum and every UK General Election held the vote is called by those in power when they feel they are most likely to win.  Cameron and Salmond both realise current polls suggest a fairly easy win for the status quo, hence Cameron wants the vote next week if possible (suggesting Scotland does provide a benefit to the UK, or is it all sentiment?)  Salmond on the other hand thinks that another 2yrs of Condem cuts and the almost inevitable prospect of a majority Tory Govt in 2015 will mean that support for independence will rise.

Time will tell if they are correct.

[Tyrant]

Do we know what the majority would need to be for it to win? Or is 51% going to be enough?

[Monkey]

I'm undecided on the whole issue and think there needs to be a lot more information provided before any vote takes place. Unfortunately it looks like any settlement would only be negotiated after a referendum vote which means the decision would have to be taken blind which can't be the most sensible way to decide these matters.

[glasgow sheep]

Do we know what the majority would need to be for it to win? Or is 51% going to be enough?

 

A majority will be all that is needed, 50% + 1 vote will do it

 

I'm undecided on the whole issue and think there needs to be a lot more information provided before any vote takes place. Unfortunately it looks like any settlement would only be negotiated after a referendum vote which means the decision would have to be taken blind which can't be the most sensible way to decide these matters.

 

True, although I can't see the UK parliament ever agreeing to negotiations before the vote as they are all against the idea of Scottish Independence.

[Edinburghdon]

Its a strange one. Back in 1999 Westminster moved 6000sq miles of sea from Scottish to English control. Instead of Scottish waters starting at Berwick and heading East it now heads North East to as North as Carnoustie then heads East.

 

https://www.og.decc.gov.uk/information/bb_updates/maps/infrast.pdf

 

Im sure Edinburghdon will be able to tell you more about the seabed and the oil fields within it.

 

The map shows it pretty simply, although it only shows existing fields rather than known reserves.

 

[dave_min]

I really couldn't care less either way. Doesn't seem to make much difference to me if I'm getting screwed over by a government in Edinburgh, London or Brussels.

 

As long as I retain the freedom to move around the EU I'm just not bothered.

 

I'm not a fan on the whole Westminster denying the right to democracy in Scotland though, or not letting 16 year olds vote.

[mizer]

The map shows it pretty simply, although it only shows existing fields rather than known reserves.

 

Would there be reserves in the new english zone?

[Edinburghdon]

Would there be reserves in the new english zone?

 

Fucked if I know, if anyone did they'd be very rich very quickly!

 

I'd guess there probably is though, don't know where or how much though.

[BigAl]

Independence will bring an end to sterling and the introduction of the Euro as our currency

 

I'm as patriotic as the next man, but far from convinced about the wisdom of going it alone, and certainly have never heard anything coming out of the "bag of wind" known as Alex Salmond that has ever come remotely closely to me trusting him with this potential monumental jump for our nation.

 

No one seems to have highlighted the fact the if Salmond for one minute thought he could get a yes majority vote tomorrow he'd be moving heaven and earth to get it done now instead of this 2014 nonsense. The polls don't lie when they report that at best he is going to get about 40% support, hence the reason he is running scared of the straightforward independence YES or NO question and nothing else.

 

On a selfish note the company I work for although not British has it's UK headquarters in Scotland despite the fact that Scotland only accounts for 8% of our UK business. Fair to say I'd .magine that it'll be adios Ecosse to that 

[Kowalski]

No chance of me voting yes if they stick to the Euro plan.  Fuck that.

[glasgow sheep]

No chance of me voting yes if they stick to the Euro plan.  Fuck that.

 

Plan is to stick with Sterling.

They have only said that if it was in Scotland's interest in the future then a referendum would be held to ask to join the Euro.  this is the same position as the UK Lib Dems and Labour parties. Or on the other hand if it was in our interest to have our own currency we could go that way.  If we are forced to join the EU rather than merely continue in the EU then we are obliged to say we will join the Euro at some point, BUT not obliged to join the ERM which we would have to do in order to get the Euro and could reject it anyway in a referendum as others have.

[glasgow sheep]

No one seems to have highlighted the fact the if Salmond for one minute thought he could get a yes majority vote tomorrow he'd be moving heaven and earth to get it done now instead of this 2014 nonsense. The polls don't lie when they report that at best he is going to get about 40% support, hence the reason he is running scared of the straightforward independence YES or NO question and nothing else.

 

I'm sure I highlighted this. Cameron wants it now because he thinks he can win. Salmond wants it in 2014 because he thinks he has a better chance to win then.  It's hardly a unique position in politics - see the AV referendum, the EU referendum we never had and every General Election ever held.

[BigAl]

I'm sure I highlighted this. Cameron wants it now because he thinks he can win. Salmond wants it in 2014 because he thinks he has a better chance to win then.  It's hardly a unique position in politics - see the AV referendum, the EU referendum we never had and every General Election ever held.

 

You very possibly did in all honesty I didn't fully read everyones comments on the thread.

Your point about the timing is bang on, Cameron believes the polls as probably most of us do, if held tomorrow it's a No vote majority. The issue with Salmond for me is he keeps banging on that this is Scotland's destiny and his legacy to the country, but to me he falls down in all of this by failing to have the conviction and belief by going for it now.

 

Regarding the currency issue, of course the position of Scotland keeping on sterling is not without precadent elsewhere in the world, but surely it will be up to the government of the United Kingdom NOT Scotland as to whether they would allow a foreign country to utilise it's currency.

 

One thing is for sure, this is going to run and run

[mizer]

You very possibly did in all honesty I didn't fully read everyones comments on the thread.

Your point about the timing is bang on, Cameron believes the polls as probably most of us do, if held tomorrow it's a No vote majority. The issue with Salmond for me is he keeps banging on that this is Scotland's destiny and his legacy to the country, but to me he falls down in all of this by failing to have the conviction and belief by going for it now.

 

If a yes/no vote tomorrow even ardent nationalists would have to think about it as there are no figures or facts out there about costs/benefits and fees etc. Even in a  few years time we will be benefit of many a figure and fact. At least now answers can be obtained from the EU and Whitehall.

 

I ended up watching this on newsnight last night and found out that the person appointed to run the Unionist campaign in London is none other than the chancellor George Osbourne.

The posh boy who has never had a job but stitched up Gordon Brown, Nick Clegg and was behind Camerons appointment as tory leader. Such a nice guy, this campaign will be nice and tidy then........

[BigAl]

I'll vote for independence no matter what - I know it's for the best.

 

If it wasn't for the fact that Salmond claims to be a Hearts supporter, I'd swear you were really him, as that is exactly the sort of argument he seems to specialise in putting forward

[Superstar Tradesman]

I'll vote for independence no matter what - I know it's for the best.

 

+1

 

I'd rather we were to blame for any mess we made.

[baggy89]

While I was in Tattieland over Christmas there was a suggestion that the Irish would get into bed with an Independent Scotland and create some sort of Celtic currency using Scottish Sterling. No idea where it came from as someone else joined the conversation at that point and I never got round to asking.

[manc_don]

While I was in Tattieland over Christmas there was a suggestion that the Irish would get into bed with an Independent Scotland and create some sort of Celtic currency using Scottish Sterling. No idea where it came from as someone else joined the conversation at that point and I never got round to asking.

 

Aye cos that would be a brilliant idea... 

[mizer]

While I was in Tattieland over Christmas there was a suggestion that the Irish would get into bed with an Independent Scotland and create some sort of Celtic currency using Scottish Sterling. No idea where it came from as someone else joined the conversation at that point and I never got round to asking.

 

Not a chance

[mizer]

I presume the Scotsman must be in favour

 

 

 

[tlg1903]

Ooooooh doing it on st andrews day is a nice and quite clever touch imo