Scottish Independence

[Goldie03]

I am not that clued up on this but with such intertwined economies is that not cutting off your nose to spite your face behavior from rUK? For instance if HBOS, RBS etc. were to go bust that would affect a lot of account holders and shareholders in rUK.

 

We were talking about that at work the other day but IMO after the fiascos from both banks in 2008 and the subsequent PPI and Libor scandals then surely the regulation is in place now to prevent collapse on such a grand scale from ever happening again

[manc_don]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/mar/17/scottish-independence-islands-home-rule

[tom_widdows]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/mar/17/scottish-independence-islands-home-rule

 

Reckon Orkney & Shetland have a decent chance.

 

Not so sure about the outer Hebrides

 

Malcolm Bell, the convenor of Shetland Islands council, said the independence referendum offered an opportunity for the islands to carve out a new political settlement. "There's no point in Westminster devolving powers to Edinburgh if they are going to stop in Edinburgh. When you're 300 miles from Edinburgh, or 700 from London, at those kind of distances, Edinburgh feels as remote as London," he said.

 

There are similar thoughts going around in the North west Highlands and it appears the Yes Campaign are doing very little about it

[tom_widdows]

SNP really not helping themselves and the YES campaign in the Highlands

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-26392421

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-26240421

 

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3593342/

[Nellie The Don]

SNP really not helping themselves and the YES campaign in the Highlands

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-26392421

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-26240421

 

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3593342/

 

Uh-huh, mm-hmm, yeah.  Go and jump in a hole.

 

None of that has any relevance to the independence debate.

 

It is just a desperate attempt on your part to cram negative stories and the acronym SNP and, by some brain dead osmosis, the entire YES campaign, into the same sentence.

 

Explain yourself.

[tom_widdows]

This is relevant Nellie and all pro Independence supporters need to start taking note of these things because they are decisions & ideas from the current Scottish government

 

For a government that loves to slag Cameron, Thatcher and Westminster the 3 items I have highlighted are scarily Tory sounding.

 

The fear (and I think it is perfectly justified) amongst many of those in the Highlands, Outer Hebrides, Orkneys, Shetlands and other rural areas is that they will bear the brunt of the cuts and economic problems that an independent Scotland could face.

 

The big word in this case is COULD. So far the YES campaign which like it or not has Salmond & Co as their spokesmen has failed to give a proper answer on anything. At the moment when an obstacle is put in their way they side step it and declare it to be bullyboy tactics by the UK Government. Meanwhile extremely unpopular decisions are being made by the Scottish Government but all I am hearing is 'it will be great when we are free'

That is not good enough

 

On a related matter I found this on the YES campaign's website

 

Here are some guidelines on the online behaviour we expect from our supporters. Our campaign is positive and rooted in hope. How we interact with people must reflect that.

 

Courtesy: Be polite to everybody and show respect to those who think differently.

Responsibility: Control the impulse to react before thinking.

Imagination: Explain complex ideas in a way that is engaging, interesting and relevant to the people you're talking to.

Integrity: Be honest and open about who we are and what we say and believe.

Collaboration: Work together with people from all walks of life for a better country.

Funny that it only applies to ONLINE discussions

 

Someone from the YES campaign really needs to get down to Hollyrood and pin this to Salmond & Sturgeon's doors. Especially that last one

 

[Nellie The Don]

The first story you posted is about building houses near, not on, an historic battle site. Personally, I credit the population of the Highlands with the ability to distinguish genuine issues affecting the community from nonsensical symbolism.

 

The story about the A9 comes from 'an adviser to a popular think tank'. Attempting to link it to government policy is just bizarre.

 

The remaining story is about Highland Council, not the Scottish government. Highland council is run by a coalition of SNP, Labour and Liberal Democrat councillors.

 

Your use of the phrase 'The Fear', is extremely telling. All you are doing, really, is seeing how many times you can cram the words 'Salmond' and 'Sturgeon' into the debate without actually saying anything.

[tom_widdows]

Your use of the phrase 'The Fear', is extremely telling. All you are doing, really, is seeing how many times you can cram the words 'Salmond' and 'Sturgeon' into the debate without actually saying anything.

 

You could therefore say I'm emulating the aforementioned S&S in this discussion? But you are right I personally do have a fear that the SNP would be in charge of an independent Scotland.

 

I accept my atempt at a point probably was not clear.

It is that everyday, stories and revelations like thosed I mention are coming out in the press and those that could or will be affected are looking towards Hollyrood, Not Westminster.

 

And when this happens the seems to be fuck all reaction from both Hollyrood and the YES campaign to respond which will result in people going for a No vote. It is their job to convince the population to make the change but as I see it they are being far too easily distracted by the bitching and moaning between Cameron & Salmond.

 

I'm noticing that some pro independence and on rare occasions actual YES campaign team members are stating that the SNP and the YES campaign are not linked in anyway. Unfortunately that is not how it is appearing and that is a massive mistake

 

[Nellie The Don]

It is that everyday, stories and revelations like thosed I mention are coming out in the press and those that could or will be affected are looking towards Hollyrood, Not Westminster.

 

And when this happens the seems to be fuck all reaction from both Hollyrood and the YES campaign to respond which will result in people going for a No vote. It is their job to convince the population to make the change but as I see it they are being far too easily distracted by the bitching and moaning between Cameron & Salmond.

 

Okay, so let's have a look at one of those issues. 

 

Almost certainly the one of the three stories that you posted that will actually have the most effect on the Highlands is the dualling of the A9.  This project is long, long overdue. The existing road is entirely inadequate as a main route connecting the Highlands to the rest of the country, and has cost more lives than I care to count.  Do you imagine for one second that this project would be going ahead if trunk roads were still controlled from Westminster? Would it fuck.

 

Other administrations in Hollyrood have also had plenty opportunity to address the issue, but have failed to.

 

An SNP majority government probably isn't one that I would choose for an independent Scotland, but to try and claim that the Highlands and Islands would be better served by Westminster because the SNP are too Edinburgh-centric is an argument that is frankly laughable, and one that just won't wash.

[Nellie The Don]

I'm noticing that some pro independence and on rare occasions actual YES campaign team members are stating that the SNP and the YES campaign are not linked in anyway. Unfortunately that is not how it is appearing and that is a massive mistake

 

The Yes campaign and the SNP are far from synonymous.  There are plenty of spokesmen and women in the Yes campaign from other political parties and from different backgrounds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tom_widdows]

Okay, so let's have a look at one of those issues. 

 

Almost certainly the one of the three stories that you posted that will actually have the most effect on the Highlands is the dualling of the A9.  This project is long, long overdue. The existing road is entirely inadequate as a main route connecting the Highlands to the rest of the country, and has cost more lives than I care to count.  Do you imagine for one second that this project would be going ahead if trunk roads were still controlled from Westminster? Would it fuck.

 

Other administrations in Hollyrood have also had plenty opportunity to address the issue, but have failed to.

 

An SNP majority government probably isn't one that I would choose for an independent Scotland, but to try and claim that the Highlands and Islands would be better served by Westminster because the SNP are too Edinburgh-centric is an argument that is frankly laughable, and one that just won't wash.

 

It may be laughable to your good self and so many people but it is not to those who live there who are asking questions but getting no answers.

As the Shetland Island Councillor said 'When you're 300 miles from Edinburgh, or 700 from London, at those kind of distances, Edinburgh feels as remote as London,"

 

I disagree with your comment regarding the A9 having the biggest effect as while this is happening essential services are being removed which make it harder to live in Rural areas and that has happened since Devolution. It was petrol stations a few years back, Local police stations & council service points now, and Schools and Local leisure facilities are in the firing line.

The argument that other administrations were responsible for said closures or failures to act is irrelevant. The Current administration is continuing with them. At no point have then even tried to claim 'all those cuts and closures are Westminster's fault and won't happen if we are independent.

 

It is no wonder there are thoughts that an independent Scotland will become Edinburgh/ Glasgow obsessed much in the way Westminster is London Obsessed. Especially when it is the SNP shouting the loudest while the Scottish Lib Dems, Labour, Greens, Conservatives seen to be opposed.

[tom_widdows]

The Yes campaign and the SNP are far from synonymous.  There are plenty of spokesmen and women in the Yes campaign from other political parties and from different backgrounds.

 

 

 

 

 

3 of those events were in Glasgow

 

1 was in St Andrews

 

And as far as I am aware they received next to fuck all mainstream media attention.

 

Where are the events in places such as  Inverness, Lerwick, Kirkwall, Portree, Ullapool, Fort william, Elgin, Wick, Mallaig, Dunnoon,  Stornoway, Oban, Fraserbrugh, Aviemore etc etc

 

 

[Nellie The Don]

As the Shetland Island Councillor said 'When you're 300 miles from Edinburgh, or 700 from London, at those kind of distances, Edinburgh feels as remote as London,"

 

Absolutely, and I would agree provision of services should be devolved to local councils as much as possible.  Not without huge reform of the way that councils and local elections are run, however. Currently, the way that councils are run and elected in this country is so bad that I wouldn't trust them to run so much as a bus service without fucking it up.

 

I disagree with your comment regarding the A9 having the biggest effect as while this is happening essential services are being removed which make it harder to live in Rural areas and that has happened since Devolution. It was petrol stations a few years back, Local police stations & council service points now, and Schools and Local leisure facilities are in the firing line.

 

I wouldn't suggest for a second that these aren't important issues, but they are, too a much larger degree, issues of local government as opposed to Hollyrood. With regards to the A9, it is absolutely essential to the economy of the Highlands to have a strong modern transportation link with the rest of the country, and the A9 in it's current form that certainly isn't that.

 

At no point have then even tried to claim 'all those cuts and closures are Westminster's fault and won't happen if we are independent.

 

Then I don't think you've been listening very well.  It's a fairly well laboured point that such cuts are a matter of funding, and that with the Barnett formula dictating what funds are available in Scotland, cuts in funding to public services in England by Westminster directly result in cuts in Scotland.

 

1 was in St Andrews

 

And as far as I am aware they received next to fuck all mainstream media attention.

 

Where are the events in places such as  Inverness, Lerwick, Kirkwall, Portree, Ullapool, Fort william, Elgin, Wick, Mallaig, Dunnoon,  Stornoway, Oban, Fraserbrugh, Aviemore etc etc

 

The point I was making in posting the videos wasn't about the geographical spread of the Yes campaign, but the political spread. The fact that these events don't get much 'mainstream media' attention doesn't really surprise me, given the nature of the 'mainstream' media.

 

 

It is no wonder there are thoughts that an independent Scotland will become Edinburgh/ Glasgow obsessed much in the way Westminster is London Obsessed. Especially when it is the SNP shouting the loudest while the Scottish Lib Dems, Labour, Greens, Conservatives seen to be opposed.

 

The leaderships and spokesmen for the Lib Dems and Labour parties may be anti independence, but the views within the party memberships is a very different matter altogether.  The problem for these two parties, and the reason that they have faired so badly at the last Hollyrood election in my opinion, is that they (their leaderships, in any case) have changed in nature so drastically that they are barely recognisable any more. 

 

The Labour party in Scotland have never successfully replaced the likes of John Smith, Donald Dewar and Robin Cook, and no longer successfully represent their core support in Scotland, largely due to a lack of tolerance for dissenting opinion within the party warding off genuine talent (See Alan Grogan, above).  A prime example of this was during the Grangemouth strike.  A proper Labour party leader would have been extremely vocal and visible in that, but barely a peep was heard from Lammont and co, for fear that it might embarrass Ed Milliband while the tories were battering him with union issues to their daily mail reading electorate in the south.

 

Similarly, with the Lib Dems, the party has been hijacked by people who would probably be in the Tory party were it not for the fact that they would never get elected if they were.  This perhaps speaks a touch about why none of the non-SNP Yes videos I posted were from outwith central Scotland.  Traditionally, the two main political forces in the H&Is have been the SNP and the Lib Dems.  Unlike the Labour movement in the industrialised central belt, the political assasinations of Charles Kennedy and Menz Campbell were recent enough that a viable genuine liberal alternative has yet to be established.

 

As for the Green party, their leadership (as shown above)  are most definitely not opposed to independence.  They may be unique, however, in being the only party leadership to acknowledge that there will likely be disagreement on the issue within their membership.

[tom_widdows]

Interesting that I make a start on this discussion and 'issue 2' of the 'YES!' newspaper/magazine is suddenly shoved through my letterbox. I wonder what happened to Issue 1?

 

Shall have a peruse over the next week but already a few things stick out for me

 

Quote from Salmond

'with independence there will be virtually no limit on what we can do' 

 

In the 'your questions answered section'

Q - Will we keep the pound?'

A - (short version) 'Its the best way forward'. That doesn't answer the question. it just states an intention to try and keep it.

 

Q - Will we still be in the EU

A - (short version) 'Does anyone really think the EU wouldn't welcome Scotland as a member?' Again that doesn't answer the question.

 

Also a lot of promises for stuff that sounds very good and I'd be all for it but there is no explanation as to how it will all be paid for. Lots of stuff about how wealthy we are but no solid figures.

 

I really can't stand documents like this from any political party. All promises and selective facts that are quickly forgotten as soon as it all gets real.

[Madbadteacher]

I've not paid a lot of attention to this as it's not likely to affect me personally as I plan to go for my US citizenship when I qualify.

 

I do have some interest though, obviously, as I will be Scottish til I die,

Could anyone kind of summarise the for/against arguments for me? I have my own opinions, which are probably based on misinformation, but I know, believe it or not, that a lot of people here, on finding out I'm a Scot (might be the accent) ask me about this and genuinely want to have some sort of feeling about how Scotland feels about this. Especially as I'm going to be dealing with a lot of Eastern European/former Soviet residents

[tlg1903]

My perception is that a lot of people who initially said no to begin with have actually started thinking about it.  David Cameron has been a far more effective head turner for the yes campaign than Salmond has and the No campaign is rightly starting to shit it a bit.  Initially I thought it was going to be pretty close but probably end up being no.  Now I'm not so sure, the SNP have played their hand pretty well.  The yes campaign have been preparing for this for a long time and seem to be gathering momentum at just the right time whereas the no campaign still seem to be confused as to why the scaremongering has not been very effective.  Lastly we all remember the union flag wankfest that was the olympics, I can't help but suspect that the commonwealth games could play a big part in swinging a lot of unsure voters to yes. 

For the record I will be voting yes, there's plenty of reasons why but I would do it for one alone.

 

To never again be ruled by a conservative and unionist party of great britain government.  Done, sold, deal, cheers easy 

[Nellie The Don]

Quote from Salmond

'with independence there will be virtually no limit on what we can do' 

 

Hello, Mr Wall.  How are the bricks today?

[Sandaldinho]

In the 'your questions answered section'

Q - Will we keep the pound?'

A - (short version) 'Its the best way forward'. That doesn't answer the question. it just states an intention to try and keep it.

 

Q - Will we still be in the EU

A - (short version) 'Does anyone really think the EU wouldn't welcome Scotland as a member?' Again that doesn't answer the question.

One of the biggest points people need to start realising is there can be no definitive answer to either until it actually happens. Salmond wants us to keep the pound but it will depend on negotiations with Westminster as to whether we can come to some sort of agreement on a monetary union. Ultimately they can't stop us using it, it doesn't belong to anyone, kind of like Panama uses and trades is USD without any form of trade/monetary agreement with the US. The same goes for the EU, there is no way of knowing until/if we leave the UK.

[tom_widdows]

Hello, Mr Wall.  How are the bricks today?

 

He is the most prominent figure in the Yes campaign Nellie. Until he shuts up and lets the actual team speak then I'm going to keep bringing him up.

[Kowalski]

My perception is that a lot of people who initially said no to begin with have actually started thinking about it.  David Cameron has been a far more effective head turner for the yes campaign than Salmond has and the No campaign is rightly starting to shit it a bit.  Initially I thought it was going to be pretty close but probably end up being no.  Now I'm not so sure, the SNP have played their hand pretty well.  The yes campaign have been preparing for this for a long time and seem to be gathering momentum at just the right time whereas the no campaign still seem to be confused as to why the scaremongering has not been very effective.  Lastly we all remember the union flag wankfest that was the olympics, I can't help but suspect that the commonwealth games could play a big part in swinging a lot of unsure voters to yes.

 

This is not the perception I get in Aberdeen. The Treasury's intervention over the currency issue has strengthened the No vote as far as I can see.

 

You could be right about the Commonwealth games although I'm not sure Scotland is going to be very successful.

[Superstar Tradesman]

The panic over which currency they'll use in Scotland if the Yes vote wins is really short sighted IMO opinion.

 

Surely being in charge of how that currency is taxed and redistributed is far more important than what it looks like?

[Kowalski]

Surely being in charge of how that currency is taxed and redistributed is far more important than what it looks like?

 

But that's the clincher.  Will we be in charge of it?  If Salmond gets his way, we won't.

[Nellie The Don]

But that's the clincher.  Will we be in charge of it?  If Salmond gets his way, we won't.

 

If we vote 'No', we will definitely continue to not be in charge of our currency. 

 

Alex Salmond has no control over what government a Scottish electorate puts into Hollyrood in the future any more than, as has constantly been shown to be the case, the Scottish electorate has any power to control what government sits in Westminster, running monetary policy.

[Kowalski]

The Labour-led administration on Aberdeen City Council is to press ahead with sending out letters endorsing a "No" vote in September's independence referendum.

 

About 200,000 letters will be included in bills sent out to council tax payers.

 

The SNP called for the letters to be pulped but the coalition backed the move to send them.

 

Labour council leader Barney Crockett insisted it was the right decision.

 

He said: "We are completely confident that what we are doing is not political campaigning."

 

SNP and Lib Dem councillors walked out the meeting after it was decided to hold the discussion on the letters in private.

 

SNP group leader Callum McCaig said: "It's beyond pathetic, this is an out of control administration."

 

Aberdeen City Council is run by a coalition of Labour, the Conservatives and independents.

 

Mental.

[scunnered999]

SNP 2-faced as ever. How many millions of our tax £s has the SNP spent on campaigning/propoganda...? Scottish Government Fiscal commission or whatever for example