Crazy American Politics

[donsdaft]

If only Boris had made it to Prime Minister

 

Lunatics asylum etc.

[rocket_scientist]

Everyone jumping to conclusions. Let's give him a chance. Let's see if he's true to his word.

 

No reason why he wouldn't be. This could be the greatest day in world history. Or it might not be.

 

The future hasn't been written yet but we'll find out real quick. Optimists or pessimists?

 

It was a vote against the establishment and how could that possibly be a bad thing?

 

Loving all the newscasters spewing. But many people don't believe them anymore.

 

Let the revolution begin. Shit just got real. This should spell the end for the Tories. Hopefully.

 

And independence for Scotland.

[cupidstunt]

Everyone jumping to conclusions. Let's give him a chance. Let's see if he's true to his word.

 

No reason why he wouldn't be. This could be the greatest day in world history. Or it might not be.

 

The future hasn't been written yet but we'll find out real quick. Optimists or pessimists?

 

It was a vote against the establishment and how could that possibly be a bad thing?

 

Loving all the newscasters spewing. But many people don't believe them anymore.

 

Let the revolution begin. Shit just got real. This should spell the end for the Tories. Hopefully.

 

And independence for Scotland.

 

One US commentator said around 70% of presidential candidates pre-election pledges are usually put in place. Trump has the power to do it because the Republicans hold all the power now.

 

It might have been an anti establishment vote but it was also a xenophobic and hate fulled vote. If a European politician, especially one that was in charge of a party or running for a presidency, had 12+ accusations of sexual assault hanging over them there's no way they'd still be in the running, never mind get the vote. If his presidency goes even half the way of his persona the US will go backwards when it comes to human rights, female equality, racial equality and workers rights.

 

I cant see how this will be good for Scotland, all the party leaders have spoken against him, some actively campaigning against him. I also dont see how this is bad for the Conservatives in Westminster, some being inches away from being UKIP lunatics which looks to be the preferred stance doon sooth.

 

As you say though, sit back and enjoy the show. If he's a monumental fuck up he'll be gone in 4 years. If he is it'll also have a massive effect on our economy which could then see the fall of the Conservatives which aint bad unless that means the further rise of UKIP.

 

One massive positive, the yanks will now be the ones having to deal with Farage. He's no longer our problem.

[manc_don]

One US commentator said around 70% of presidential candidates pre-election pledges are usually put in place. Trump has the power to do it because the Republicans hold all the power now.

 

It might have been an anti establishment vote but it was also a xenophobic and hate fulled vote. If a European politician, especially one that was in charge of a party or running for a presidency, had 12+ accusations of sexual assault hanging over them there's no way they'd still be in the running, never mind get the vote. If his presidency goes even half the way of his persona the US will go backwards when it comes to human rights, female equality, racial equality and workers rights.

 

I cant see how this will be good for Scotland, all the party leaders have spoken against him, some actively campaigning against him. I also dont see how this is bad for the Conservatives in Westminster, some being inches away from being UKIP lunatics which looks to be the preferred stance doon sooth.

 

As you say though, sit back and enjoy the show. If he's a monumental fuck up he'll be gone in 4 years. If he is it'll also have a massive effect on our economy which could then see the fall of the Conservatives which aint bad unless that means the further rise of UKIP.

 

One massive positive, the yanks will now be the ones having to deal with Farage. He's no longer our problem.

 

Excellent post and pretty much sums how I view the situation.  This is a bad situation for not only the yanks, but us and the rest of the world on a humanitarian, economic and more importantly environmental scale.

[rocket_scientist]

This proves two things; that people have the power and we don't believe the establishment lies.

 

If he breaks the system - and it needs to be broken - then it liberates us all.

 

When he brings back the troops from the Middle East and focuses on domestic issues, re-building infrastructure, other peoples will start to understand the true costs of conflict and the depth of the stealing from public funds.

 

In the best case scenario, we start to indict people like Blair and Cameron and Bush and the corporate bastards they worked for. So many corrupt humans in politics, banking, agriculture, pharmas, munitions, energy, accounting, law etc. etc. need to be exposed and made examples of. That is probably a step too far for a new president though. Only the people's revolution would string up the thieves. There may be amnesty whilst he focuses on rebuilding the country but we will all be watching very closely and we will want our schools, hospitals and system overhauled too. Only possible when the stealing stops, the industrial war machine being the first and biggest thief.

[Stupie82]

There is far too much panic over this. Granted, the man doesn't scream secure world leader, but now is the time to define what was real in the campaign and what was media spin/propaganda.

 

As Rocket said, this is a vote against the establishment... The US media and its celebrity prowess threw everything behind Clinton and it failed catastrophically. Its repercussions will be felt across all of America and most of the world. They are after all the most powerful nation on the planet and anything that affects them affects us all. What he does now with his new found power is anyone's guess, but lets hope it is all for the good.

 

My own initial thoughts were panic, but who knows, this maybe the start of something that is long overdue, good or bad.

 

 

[cupidstunt]

I agree with your establishment point but what puzzles me is how in the UK people saw voting for a banker and a career politician (Farage and BoJo) as an anti establishment vote.

 

I also dont see how Americans can view voting for a paper billionaire that has been in the public eye for 3 decades as anti establishment either.

 

They are all part of the 'establishment'.

 

To me anti establishment would be someone from the street, an every man/woman rising to the top and not career politicians that are usually on the losing side or milti-millionaires/billionaires with axes to grind.

[Stupie82]

I agree with your establishment point but what puzzles me is how in the UK people saw voting for a banker and a career politician (Farage and BoJo) as an anti establishment vote.

 

I also dont see how Americans can view voting for a paper billionaire that has been in the public eye for 3 decades as anti establishment either.

 

They are all part of the 'establishment'.

 

To me anti establishment would be someone from the street, an every man/woman rising to the top and not career politicians that are usually on the losing side or milti-millionaires/billionaires with axes to grind.

 

I personally see it is anti-establishment, not because of those involved in running the campaign, but more in the results. Yes, Trump is a billionaire, but he is against all things political. His own views on NATO and Russia will shake the world to its core if he carries them out. The people have turned against what was perceived as the right thing to do, both with Brexit and this US election. The media, celebrities, political propaganda... none of it worked. The world is a different place now and thats not being OTT. Two of the most powerful nations in the world have had their political core rocked this year alone... next year its France and Germany... who knows what might happen.

 

 

[rocket_scientist]

Cupid, I see Farage as being anti-establishment for the simple reason that he IS very anti the EU establishment where Cameron and May and Obama are very pro EU. Some of his speeches in the European Parliament are pure genius.

 

Trump campaigned almost exclusively on the anti-establishment ticket, particularly in the final week.

 

Brexit and outing the establishment is what the people want. The system has for too long favoured the 1% and raped the rest of the world.

[RicoS321]

I agree with your establishment point but what puzzles me is how in the UK people saw voting for a banker and a career politician (Farage and BoJo) as an anti establishment vote.

 

I also dont see how Americans can view voting for a paper billionaire that has been in the public eye for 3 decades as anti establishment either.

 

They are all part of the 'establishment'.

 

To me anti establishment would be someone from the street, an every man/woman rising to the top and not career politicians that are usually on the losing side or milti-millionaires/billionaires with axes to grind.

 

But none of those exist in the fixed electoral system, so he's the next best thing. The thought of a Clinton presidency made me feel physically sick. The system(s) in both the UK and US (and Europe) are entirely broken. Designed to serve corporations. Look at Clintons list of donors, it was an outright disgrace. More of the same is no longer acceptable (and should never have been). We have the opportunity and technology in our children's lifetimes to be truly free, but our system doesn't allow it. Cunts in a political chamber jeering at one another are no longer required (they've never been required). We know the things we need to be free and we know how to get there, it's time for the bought and paid for politicians to step aside. Trump is just the start. He's the cunt that brings things to a head in the most time-efficient manner. Fuck the huns.

[cupidstunt]

All I see with Brexit and Trump is right wing leanings, that isnt anti establishment in my view. We've been here before in our history, it didnt end well that time.

 

Brexit was backed by the right wing press, press that are owned and controlled by billionaires that have their own agendas, agendas that have nothing to do with freedom for the people and everything to do with insuring their financial legacy for their super rich families. Thats anything but anti establishment. Farage is so anti EU rocket he took their money for years and claimed hundreds of thousands in expenses. He could've fought to change it from the inside, he could've highlighted its ills and given solutions, instead he's broken us away from it and fucked off to America to take another highly paid job with Trump leaving us to pick up the pieces of his mess.

 

Anti establishment is the people standing up and taking control, its not handing control to xenophobes that are funded by the 1% or are part of the 1%.

 

The Americans did have that choice, there were several independents that they could vote for and if the people really wanted to shake things up they could've put their weight behind one of those. A real statement of disgust towards the political system would be to push one of those forward.

 

If Americans wanted their country back and they followed the example of their founding father (something they love to claim is important to them) then they would go with an independent. George Washington was an independent, he stood against party politics. The Americans seem to have forgotten that and a lot of the people in the UK think going right wing is some sort of protest. I think its deluded at best, extremely dangerous at worst.

[Stupie82]

Left wing or right wing, its irrelevant. Its the vote against what is precieved to be normal, or in other words, what the government wants you to think and do. Scottish independence, project fear, Brexit, project fear and Trump, project fear. The fear is spread by those who themselves fear the outcome. Its all about self preservation.

 

I see your point about Trump being a billionaire, therefore is part of the elite, however he isnt your everyday billionaire. IF he lives out his vision, you will see massive political reform in the US. That is anti-establishment whether you are a billionaire or not. He is the protest vote and in the eyes of those who voted for him he is anti-establishment. What is important here is that the majority of Amercians who voted, voted for someone who isn't a "normal" president. Current Obama opinon polls have him as one the highest rated presidents leaving office in the US history and yet, Trump still managed to turn the vote away from the Democrats. What i would turn my attentions to was how did the Democrats allow it to happen. Where they like Dave, where they assumed the public would tow the line and fall for the propaganda? Clinton had billions behind her and yet the people still voted against her and the party.

[RicoS321]

All I see with Brexit and Trump is right wing leanings, that isnt anti establishment in my view. We've been here before in our history, it didnt end well that time.

 

Brexit was backed by the right wing press, press that are owned and controlled by billionaires that have their own agendas, agendas that have nothing to do with freedom for the people and everything to do with insuring their financial legacy for their super rich families. Thats anything but anti establishment. Farage is so anti EU rocket he took their money for years and claimed hundreds of thousands in expenses. He could've fought to change it from the inside, he could've highlighted its ills and given solutions, instead he's broken us away from it and fucked off to America to take another highly paid job with Trump leaving us to pick up the pieces of his mess.

 

Anti establishment is the people standing up and taking control, its not handing control to xenophobes that are funded by the 1% or are part of the 1%.

 

The Americans did have that choice, there were several independents that they could vote for and if the people really wanted to shake things up they could've put their weight behind one of those. A real statement of disgust towards the political system would be to push one of those forward.

 

If Americans wanted their country back and they followed the example of their founding father (something they love to claim is important to them) then they would go with an independent. George Washington was an independent, he stood against party politics. The Americans seem to have forgotten that and a lot of the people in the UK think going right wing is some sort of protest. I think its deluded at best, extremely dangerous at worst.

 

Yep, good post. I don't believe the US was/is in the right place to vote in an independent anymore, they still treat the election like a two-sided football match (as we do here). As I said previously, Trump is just the beginning. He'll pave the way, I hope, for something much better next time round. I don't think it'll be a case of just going back to what you know once he makes a cunt of it. He'll bring things to a head as people will quickly realise that he is - as you say - someone that can easily be enticed into the establishment (if he isn't already part of it) and that the bland policies he eventually realises will do nothing for the people that voted for them.

 

The obvious point for me is that if Hillary won, we'd be playing out this exact same situation in 4 years time (with a different Trump). They might have picked the wrong revolution this time round, but I don't expect the yanks to make the same mistake many more times.

[rocket_scientist]

I reckon the only thing we may see differently, cupid, is our definitions of what is "establishment".

 

For me, Stupie nailed it in his first line. There is no left and right wing anymore. Blair broke those moulds. There is only a system which has been abused by corrupt corporates, facilitated by corrupt politicians (on both sides of the historic divide), as rico said.

 

Where the right wing Tories and Republicans may have been "establishment" in the past - and may be how you see it still - the definition has changed. Just because Farage is a posh accent from an "establishment" background does not mean he is part of the establishment now, quite the opposite in my view. He DID try to change the system. He was a lone voice in Strasbourg and Brussels and was a constant thorn in the sides of the unelected corrupt establishment, who were serving America, big business and self-serving bureaucracy rather than people.

 

Where he appealed to neanderthal types, his views on immigration were not born from prejudice and bigotry, unlike many (most?) of the UKIP voters. Trump similarly isn't saying that all Mexicans and all Muslims are the enemy, he's simply pointing out the madness of the establishment - both the US AND the EU - that does not control borders for reasons that were deliberate social engineering and a disaster for the majority of the population, an unhealthy situation that the ruling classes were totally immune from of course, in their gated communities.

 

There is one big problem looming however, the stupidity of people always being a problem. Some will misinterpret the anti-stablishment wave as a licence to unleash their deep prejudices. We're already seeing that in Britain post Brexit and I fear the Hispanics and Muslims in the states may face a similar backlash in the coming days.

[Stupie82]

There is one big problem looming however, the stupidity of people always being a problem. Some will misinterpret the anti-stablishment wave as a licence to unleash their deep prejudices. We're already seeing that in Britain post Brexit and I fear the Hispanics and Muslims in the states may face a similar backlash in the coming days.

 

...and this is exactly the reason why these sort of votes end up with bigoted opinions, from the very people who claim to hate bigots themselves.  I voted for Brexit and have been called xenophobic, racist and even un-Scottish... whatever that is, yet it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

The people who are racist and xenophobes use these votes as a platform to practice their prejudices and so the two are assumed to go hand in hand. Did Trump appeal to the masses of white supremacists? yes he probably did, but in no way are the 59 million people that have so far voted for him, also white supremacists or believe he will bring about segregation or deportation. He gained a higher Hispanic and Latino vote than his Republican predecessor and that speaks volumes. The media want everyone to believe that he is a neo-nazi, racist and xenophobe, but his other ideas and policies could bring about real change. Like Rocket though, i do fear however that people will use it as a platform for hatred and thats not what the vote should be about.

[rocket_scientist]

Terrible night for America and the rest of us.

 

Fascist in the Kremlin and one in the Whitehouse, I really don't like the look of this.

 

I disagree on all that and hope that I'm right and you're wrong on this. As you will too.

 

Putin is not a fascist. That's what the mainstream media would have us believe. They were supporting the industrial war complex, America's global hegemony project and the corrupt politicians who enforced it. Putin is a man of integrity and in his interviews with the US journalists, we saw an intelligent man, an honest man expressing concerns of the actions of the corrupt US and only interested in defending his people. Ukraine was a lie. It had been infiltrated by bought politicians, bought by US interests.

 

As for Trump being a fascist, I don't know how anybody can conclude this given zero political history thus far.

[rocket_scientist]

The wall. And Mexico's going to pay for it? Da hink so. Why should Mexico pay for it? It wasn't their fault that the US let them in. This is going to be interesting, whether he carries out his election pledge. I think he might but no way is he getting Mexico to pay for it all.

 

Stubbornness may show itself in his presidency rather than the conciliation he's already talking about. Being stubborn is an intellectual problem of course whereas being single-minded is absolutely necessary to get shit done. The intelligent operator gets things done whilst being able to change views and strategies in pursuing the bigger goal.

[Tyrant]

Agree about the wall. No danger that's happening at all IMO opinion. But Trump's problem is that it's those sort of promises he made that'll have won him votes so he's going to be under pressure to deliver.

[cupidstunt]

I reckon the only thing we may see differently, cupid, is our definitions of what is "establishment".

 

For me, Stupie nailed it in his first line. There is no left and right wing anymore. Blair broke those moulds. There is only a system which has been abused by corrupt corporates, facilitated by corrupt politicians (on both sides of the historic divide), as rico said.

 

Where the right wing Tories and Republicans may have been "establishment" in the past - and may be how you see it still - the definition has changed. Just because Farage is a posh accent from an "establishment" background does not mean he is part of the establishment now, quite the opposite in my view. He DID try to change the system. He was a lone voice in Strasbourg and Brussels and was a constant thorn in the sides of the unelected corrupt establishment, who were serving America, big business and self-serving bureaucracy rather than people.

 

Where he appealed to neanderthal types, his views on immigration were not born from prejudice and bigotry, unlike many (most?) of the UKIP voters. Trump similarly isn't saying that all Mexicans and all Muslims are the enemy, he's simply pointing out the madness of the establishment - both the US AND the EU - that does not control borders for reasons that were deliberate social engineering and a disaster for the majority of the population, an unhealthy situation that the ruling classes were totally immune from of course, in their gated communities.

 

There is one big problem looming however, the stupidity of people always being a problem. Some will misinterpret the anti-stablishment wave as a licence to unleash their deep prejudices. We're already seeing that in Britain post Brexit and I fear the Hispanics and Muslims in the states may face a similar backlash in the coming days.

 

Probably, I see the establishment as all those involved. Trump has been dealing in Washington all his business life, you cant build all those sky scrapers without knowing your way around the political system and working in it.

 

I see Farage as part of the establishment because of his Conservative background and being the founder of a political party.

 

That might be down to that little bit of punk in me that sees anarchy as being anti establishment and not suits and money.

[Kowalski]

Trump won because Hillary is hideous IMHO. A more decent principled opponent would have beaten Trump easily.

While there may be an element of anti-establishment voting, I think there's a lot of bigotry and racism at play too.

Brexit was the same.

[RicoS321]

Probably, I see the establishment as all those involved. Trump has been dealing in Washington all his business life, you cant build all those sky scrapers without knowing your way around the political system and working in it.

 

I see Farage as part of the establishment because of his Conservative background and being the founder of a political party.

 

That might be down to that little bit of punk in me that sees anarchy as being anti establishment and not suits and money.

 

I think the difficulty is that Trump wasn't chosen by the establishment, and barely allowed in by them (not so much Farage, but similar I suppose - the problem with Farage/UKIP is Arron Banks). Voting for Trump is like the UK voting for Mike Ashley. I wouldn't call Ashley establishment, he's an absolute cunt who would revel in fucking it up for both sides, who just happens to be minted through years of playing the system and exploitation of others.

 

This destruction of the system needs to happen, because the system no longer works. Left or right, a new system needs to be designed to replace the capitalism of the last 30 years (neo-con/lib or whatever you want to call it) and the idea that we're better off working individually of one another. Our system is failing and no longer providing the progress and efficiency it was designed to. We've moved to a rentier economy where progress is stifled through patents and hoarding. We're the least productive we've been in centuries because we're too afraid to tackle the political system. People think that correcting immigration will solve their plight, but it won't. They've got the correct ire, but the wrong target (not to say immigration isn't an issue, it is, but a cultural one rather than economic).

[TheDeeDon]

Wow, I didn't see a Trump win coming at all.

 

The thing is he is not a politician, so all the hot air he waffled during his campaing will be exactly that, stuff like building a wall on the Mexican border and other such shite will never happen. I think he will find being president extemely frustrating and will not be able to do a fraction ofwhat he wants, but I just hope that whatever he does, isn't copied verbatim by May over here, which is exactly what happened back in the 80s with Ronnie and the wicked witch.

 

I can see him quitting early doors due to something in his past coming back to haunt him or I see him following in the footsteps of JFK.

 

 

[PompeyDon]

 

 

As for Trump being a fascist, I don't know how anybody can conclude this given zero political history thus far.

 

His rhetoric during his months on the campaign trail, the political chord he struck with so many supporters.  I fear he's created a poisonous environment and whipped up the mob, in a divided country awash with guns.

 

Also, considering his inward looking mantra, I'd be fucking nervous if I was living in the Baltics just now.

 

I really hope I can look back in a couple of years time and say I was talking shite. 

 

Regarding establishments, he was sounding very establishment in his speech this morning.

 

Time will tell.

[Kowalski]

What's anti-establishment about a Republican House, Senate & President? Sounds the complete opposite to me, especially given the Republicans who are a shameful bunch of self serving cunts.

 

Elizabeth Warren should have stood.

[rocket_scientist]

What's anti-establishment about a Republican House, Senate & President? Sounds the complete opposite to me, especially given the Republicans who are a shameful bunch of self serving cunts.

 

I think you completely missed the points that I and Rico were making.

 

That's ok. It would be boring if we were all on the same page all the time.