Difficult Questions

[glasgow sheep]

Currently other than building up massive debts there is no evidence that Rangers have cheated any more than Motherwell or Dundee.  Neither side has suffered any great punishment for this.

The only difference is Rangers debt is, by definition, bigger.

 

Many people have suggested if rangers don't get wiped of the face of the earth, or at least relegated to the 3rd Division, they would walk away from Scottish Football.

 

If Rangers avoid liquidation and there is no concrete evidence of "double contracts" would you still be calling for more punishment?

Would you walk away from Aberdeen because of this?

Is seeing the death/"rightful punishment"/sporting integrity of Rangers more important than backing our team?

 

I only ask this, because as a moaning-faced-aberdonian-cunt I can't help thinking they'll escape with a cva and a slap on the wrists

 

[dave_min]

The biggest difference between the Huns cheating and the others is that it worked for them.

 

Motherwell spent money they didn't have and did fuck all with it. The Huns won everything and rubbed our collective faces into the fact that they had won it.

 

I'd rather they didn't disappear forever, but I would like to see them punished.

[Superstar Tradesman]

My biggest gripe is that the OF hold all the cards in a joke league, whereby thousands of fans turn their backs on watching it each season.

 

They've slinging an arm round their biggest rivals so they can fuck the other SPL teams in the arse whilst they both look for a way out of the league.  Now it's come out that Rangers weren't happy enough taking the lion's share of the deal so they cheated to root themselves at the top of the league for over a decade.

 

If the 'rebel 10' clubs vote to keep them in after all that then I'm not surprised people will give up.  The game was already a bogey before this all came out and this has just compounded it.

 

It'll certainly be the last straw for me.

[BigAl]

The biggest difference between the Huns cheating and the others is that it worked for them.

 

Motherwell spent money they didn't have and did fuck all with it. The Huns won everything and rubbed our collective faces into the fact that they had won it.

 

 

Agree with the two parts above.

I am one of those who feel strongly enough about what happens to the Huns (if found guilty of dual contracts etc) that would like to see them wiped of the face of the earth, or at least sentenced to years in the wilderness in their reincarnated form. To escape scotfree (in footballing terms) simply isn't an option. Do unto them as they have done to the rest of us for years and years and lets exploit their weakness to get our way

[glasgow sheep]

The biggest difference between the Huns cheating and the others is that it worked for them.

 

Motherwell spent money they didn't have and did fuck all with it. The Huns won everything and rubbed our collective faces into the fact that they had won it.

 

I'd rather they didn't disappear forever, but I would like to see them punished.

 

Perhaps, but legally that doesn't make a difference, the spl/sfa would have a hard job standing that up in court I would think.  I agree with the sentiment though, especially when you read stuff like this on Rangers Media:

 

I know this seems a bit early but I have full confidence we are now enroute to a fairly swift recovery.

That in mind we must always remember how we have been treated.

When we regain OUR title I want to see some payback.

If Doncaster or Regan attempt to hand trophy and soak up the photos I want to see Davis simply take the trophy and walk off to the Rangers fans with the rest of the team. We will have our party but those c**** are getting sidelined.

Would also like to see us boycott Tannadice to teach s harsh lesson. I know that is a hard one but it is a one off.

Also hope any new owner spends on a proper party. I'm talkin fireworks to let them all know The Rangers are back.

Finally our entire squad give the media in Scotland the bare contractual minimum.

I don't feel this is petty for we have been treated like vermin.

Thoughts?

 

 

[maverick sheep]

I'd probably still go to pittodrie but i'd certainly never go to ibrox again. Probably won't do anyway.

 

If they do get away with it then I wouldn't go to hampden again to line sfa pockets.

 

If the clubs consciously choose to maintain this duopoly however then that really might be it for me. Sport is about competition. It's not about voluntarily handicapping yourself for the benefit of your rivals. To expect me to keep paying hundreds of pounds every year to essentially have my support betrayed is ludicrous.

 

If afc have no intention of conducting themselves like an equal member, let alone genuinely attempting to build to be the best team in the country, then it's afc in name only, not in spirit because all it then is is a group of arrogant suits using the club to boost their status and portfolio.

[glasgow sheep]

I'd probably still go to pittodrie but i'd certainly never go to ibrox again. Probably won't do anyway.

 

If they do get away with it then I wouldn't go to hampden again to line sfa pockets.

 

If the clubs consciously choose to maintain this duopoly however then that really might be it for me. Sport is about competition. It's not about voluntarily handicapping yourself for the benefit of your rivals. To expect me to keep paying hundreds of pounds every year to essentially have my support betrayed is ludicrous.

 

If afc have no intention of conducting themselves like an equal member, let alone genuinely attempting to build to be the best team in the country, then it's afc in name only, not in spirit because all it then is is a group of arrogant suits using the club to boost their status and portfolio.

 

But what could the clubs do if there is a CVA and no prima facie evidence exists of double contracts?  Despite what we might wish for, I think it is nothing.

Obviously if the club is liquidated and/or they are found guilty of illegally registering players then absolutely we must see a proper and proportionate punishment.  We're not there at the moment.

[Madbadteacher]

I know this seems a bit early but I have full confidence we are now enroute to a fairly swift recovery.

That in mind we must always remember how we have been treated.

When we regain OUR title I want to see some payback.

If Doncaster or Regan attempt to hand trophy and soak up the photos I want to see Davis simply take the trophy and walk off to the Rangers fans with the rest of the team. We will have our party but those c**** are getting sidelined.

Would also like to see us boycott Tannadice to teach s harsh lesson. I know that is a hard one but it is a one off.

Also hope any new owner spends on a proper party. I'm talkin fireworks to let them all know The Rangers are back.

Finally our entire squad give the media in Scotland the bare contractual minimum.

I don't feel this is petty for we have been treated like vermin.

Thoughts?

 

Something 99% of huns never have!

[maverick sheep]

But what could the clubs do if there is a CVA and no prima facie evidence exists of double contracts?  Despite what we might wish for, I think it is nothing.

Obviously if the club is liquidated and/or they are found guilty of illegally registering players then absolutely we must see a proper and proportionate punishment.  We're not there at the moment.

 

They could at least call for a full independent investigation based on the fact the claims are coming from people who should know.

 

The issue's bigger than the gers' massive tax cheating and probable criminality though. What's followed from the beginning of admin has now shown up the SFA and SPL as bodies that have no interest in anything other than securing the particular commercial arrangement that suits them as individuals, not their members over all.

 

Doncaster has not been asked to answer why he lied about the 4 old firms being a part of the sky contract. Why not? He must have had a reason to. Shouldn't afc et al be representing their own fans and raising issues like that? And it's not just Doncaster. The clubs themselves surely knew the details of the contracts, and so knew it was a lie all along, but never called him out. Does anyone feel AFC are actually representing the fans on this? The reaction to skelp’s suggestion at the roadshow suggests they have no empathy for people who would walk away because of all this.

 

And the other thing that has come out of all this is that the clubs really don't care about restructuring the scottish game to avoid it limping towards death either. These people in charge will retire or move to jobs in other industries in not too many years, unaffected by the consequences of their ultra short-termism. The game in scotland won't be so lucky. I can't even bring myself to imagine what this league will be like 20 years from now if not totally overhauled. And if this isn't to be the catalyst for that overhaul then I don't see it ever happening.

 

Dundee, Airdrie etc should certainly have been punished, but the difference is they gained little in comparison. Rangers’ cheating created a system where they are part of a duopoly of power, so the difference is that if the SPL SFA and ‘rebel 10’ let them/new co away with it, they will walk back into this same position of privilege, and the other clubs will have willingly accepted to be losers for another 20 years. I personally feel as though AFC are so far complicit in the biggest cover up/scandal in the history of Scottish football.

 

The old adage of if you say something often enough then people come to think it's true, certainly applies as far as 'needing' the huns goes. The authorities aren't even considering whether this is genuinely true, but they tell us to believe it. And it seems neither are the clubs unless the 'rebel 10' show a bit of backbone.

 

We cannot have a chairman of the club who's essentially doing the bidding of rangers and celtic, or at least acquiescing with whatever course of action they choose to take. Then aside from all of that, there’s still the stadium issue. They dismissed the fans’ choice of location with little or no genuine feasibility study, in favour of a relocation that will mean AFC exist in name only, but that Aberdeen no longer has a professional football team.

 

As far as I see it, the ball's burst, there's still just about enough air in it to have a kick about for the time being, but if no one's going to make the necessary repairs then the outcome is inevitable, and I don't think I can't bear to watch it.

 

[manc_don]

Excellent post Maverick 

[tlg1903]

Yep well said maverick. 

[glasgowdon]

Excellent post mav.

[scotfree]

They could at least call for a full independent investigation based on the fact the claims are coming from people who should know.

 

The issue's bigger than the gers' massive tax cheating and probable criminality though. What's followed from the beginning of admin has now shown up the SFA and SPL as bodies that have no interest in anything other than securing the particular commercial arrangement that suits them as individuals, not their members over all.

 

Doncaster has not been asked to answer why he lied about the 4 old firms being a part of the sky contract. Why not? He must have had a reason to. Shouldn't afc et al be representing their own fans and raising issues like that? And it's not just Doncaster. The clubs themselves surely knew the details of the contracts, and so knew it was a lie all along, but never called him out. Does anyone feel AFC are actually representing the fans on this? The reaction to skelp’s suggestion at the roadshow suggests they have no empathy for people who would walk away because of all this.

 

And the other thing that has come out of all this is that the clubs really don't care about restructuring the scottish game to avoid it limping towards death either. These people in charge will retire or move to jobs in other industries in not too many years, unaffected by the consequences of their ultra short-termism. The game in scotland won't be so lucky. I can't even bring myself to imagine what this league will be like 20 years from now if not totally overhauled. And if this isn't to be the catalyst for that overhaul then I don't see it ever happening.

 

Dundee, Airdrie etc should certainly have been punished, but the difference is they gained little in comparison. Rangers’ cheating created a system where they are part of a duopoly of power, so the difference is that if the SPL SFA and ‘rebel 10’ let them/new co away with it, they will walk back into this same position of privilege, and the other clubs will have willingly accepted to be losers for another 20 years. I personally feel as though AFC are so far complicit in the biggest cover up/scandal in the history of Scottish football.

 

The old adage of if you say something often enough then people come to think it's true, certainly applies as far as 'needing' the huns goes. The authorities aren't even considering whether this is genuinely true, but they tell us to believe it. And it seems neither are the clubs unless the 'rebel 10' show a bit of backbone. Good one mate

 

We cannot have a chairman of the club who's essentially doing the bidding of rangers and celtic, or at least acquiescing with whatever course of action they choose to take. Then aside from all of that, there’s still the stadium issue. They dismissed the fans’ choice of location with little or no genuine feasibility study, in favour of a relocation that will mean AFC exist in name only, but that Aberdeen no longer has a professional football team.

 

As far as I see it, the ball's burst, there's still just about enough air in it to have a kick about for the time being, but if no one's going to make the necessary repairs then the outcome is inevitable, and I don't think I can't bear to watch it.

[Tyrant]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread (yet) but here's where I stand.

 

By all accounts there's no doubt that this dual contract pish took place and that Rangers are more crooked than other members of the SPL. Whether the lawyers/accountants prove it or not is almost irrelevant. It's not going to convince me that it just didn't happen. So if Rangers get away with it with no more than a slap on the wrist I can fully appreciate how that would be very tough for many people (myself included) to accept. Given that this Rangers saga is just the tip of the joke iceberg that is Scottish football it doesn't surprise me at all that seeing Rangers get away with it will stop folk going. I've been talking about stopping going for years now. This might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this. We don't owe AFC anything. They've alienated us for fucking years. They've made it clear that we don't matter.

[glasgow sheep]

They could at least call for a full independent investigation based on the fact the claims are coming from people who should know.

 

The issue's bigger than the gers' massive tax cheating and probable criminality though. What's followed from the beginning of admin has now shown up the SFA and SPL as bodies that have no interest in anything other than securing the particular commercial arrangement that suits them as individuals, not their members over all.

 

Doncaster has not been asked to answer why he lied about the 4 old firms being a part of the sky contract. Why not? He must have had a reason to. Shouldn't afc et al be representing their own fans and raising issues like that? And it's not just Doncaster. The clubs themselves surely knew the details of the contracts, and so knew it was a lie all along, but never called him out. Does anyone feel AFC are actually representing the fans on this? The reaction to skelp’s suggestion at the roadshow suggests they have no empathy for people who would walk away because of all this.

 

And the other thing that has come out of all this is that the clubs really don't care about restructuring the scottish game to avoid it limping towards death either. These people in charge will retire or move to jobs in other industries in not too many years, unaffected by the consequences of their ultra short-termism. The game in scotland won't be so lucky. I can't even bring myself to imagine what this league will be like 20 years from now if not totally overhauled. And if this isn't to be the catalyst for that overhaul then I don't see it ever happening.

 

Dundee, Airdrie etc should certainly have been punished, but the difference is they gained little in comparison. Rangers’ cheating created a system where they are part of a duopoly of power, so the difference is that if the SPL SFA and ‘rebel 10’ let them/new co away with it, they will walk back into this same position of privilege, and the other clubs will have willingly accepted to be losers for another 20 years. I personally feel as though AFC are so far complicit in the biggest cover up/scandal in the history of Scottish football.

 

The old adage of if you say something often enough then people come to think it's true, certainly applies as far as 'needing' the huns goes. The authorities aren't even considering whether this is genuinely true, but they tell us to believe it. And it seems neither are the clubs unless the 'rebel 10' show a bit of backbone.

 

We cannot have a chairman of the club who's essentially doing the bidding of rangers and celtic, or at least acquiescing with whatever course of action they choose to take. Then aside from all of that, there’s still the stadium issue. They dismissed the fans’ choice of location with little or no genuine feasibility study, in favour of a relocation that will mean AFC exist in name only, but that Aberdeen no longer has a professional football team.

 

As far as I see it, the ball's burst, there's still just about enough air in it to have a kick about for the time being, but if no one's going to make the necessary repairs then the outcome is inevitable, and I don't think I can't bear to watch it.

 

You're correct in a lot of what you say.  The SFA are making slow, tentative steps in shaking up the league structure but given the self interest in the SPL and SFL it will take at least a decade to see the changes that are required, they should at least be applauded for making more changes in their Structure in the last year than they have in decades.

 

The SFA are also holding an independent enquiry into the players registration at Rangers headed by a High Court Judge (I think) and they should be given an opportunity to report.  It may well be difficult to prove they illegally registered players but if so proven I would expect at least a significant retrospective punishment (ie stripping of titles) if not current punishment and reassigning trophies

 

Whatever the outcome of this I agree it would seem the best chance since the birth of the devil's spawn, which is the SPL, to shake things up.  Perhaps our club isn't articulating that position in the press (although perhaps holding the deck to their chest is a better idea for now) but we need to let them know just how strongly we feel about this with an expectation that they consider these views as a board and take them to the SPL.

 

Finally you haven't addressed the "what if" I started my post with.  What if it is a CVA?  What if the SFA and/or the HMRC can't/don't prove any illegal payments were made or players registered illegally?  The SPL are now proposing much stricter punishments which should have been done before now, but despite how much we huff and puff there will be little more that can be done.  Do you turn your back on Scottish Football then?

 

I understand the sentiment but Rangers have enough control over Scottish Football without forcing me to abandon Aberdeen or the wider game. 

 

 

[maverick sheep]

You're correct in a lot of what you say.  The SFA are making slow, tentative steps in shaking up the league structure but given the self interest in the SPL and SFL it will take at least a decade to see the changes that are required, they should at least be applauded for making more changes in their Structure in the last year than they have in decades.

 

The SFA are also holding an independent enquiry into the players registration at Rangers headed by a High Court Judge (I think) and they should be given an opportunity to report.  It may well be difficult to prove they illegally registered players but if so proven I would expect at least a significant retrospective punishment (ie stripping of titles) if not current punishment and reassigning trophies

 

Whatever the outcome of this I agree it would seem the best chance since the birth of the devil's spawn, which is the SPL, to shake things up.  Perhaps our club isn't articulating that position in the press (although perhaps holding the deck to their chest is a better idea for now) but we need to let them know just how strongly we feel about this with an expectation that they consider these views as a board and take them to the SPL.

 

Finally you haven't addressed the "what if" I started my post with.  What if it is a CVA?  What if the SFA and/or the HMRC can't/don't prove any illegal payments were made or players registered illegally?  The SPL are now proposing much stricter punishments which should have been done before now, but despite how much we huff and puff there will be little more that can be done.  Do you turn your back on Scottish Football then?

 

I understand the sentiment but Rangers have enough control over Scottish Football without forcing me to abandon Aberdeen or the wider game.

 

I suppose whether it convinced me to stop going to games would depend on whether the independent report seemed to be comprehensive, or a white-wash. If they end up getting away with a cva and don't get proved to have done what we're all fairly sure they have, then I'd probably still go, but I'm really not sure why. I'd certainly be even more disillusioned with the game than I am already.

 

In terms of getting AFC to speak out for the fans, this might be the perfect time to demand it. If the board fob us off after yet another season of failure then we'll know once and for all what their true colours are.

[bloo_toon_red]

Currently other than building up massive debts there is no evidence that Rangers have cheated any more than Motherwell or Dundee.  Neither side has suffered any great punishment for this.

The only difference is Rangers debt is, by definition, bigger.

I'm sure that Dundee were caught out for paying players "under the table" so to speak, but yes, Rangers gained alot more from their particular brand of cheating.  It just comes down to the legal definition of if they are found to have actually "cheated" with this whole EBT mess.  From what I can gather, and I am by no means up to speed with these kind of things at all, it's such a grey area in legal terms that no legal precedent currently exists to suggest that it is in fact illegal - in which case it is quite possible, in fact near enough inevitable, that they will get off with a slap on the wrists.  At which point they can comfortably negotiate a CVA and come out of administration scot-free.  In which case we are all left quite bewildered at how they managed to bend the rules.  But there's a difference between bending and breaking.

 

If they do in fact get liquidated and get back into the SPL I think that will leave thousands of disillusioned supporters in Scotland.  To a far lesser extent I remember being quite sickened by Airdrieonians re-forming as Airdrie Utd being allowed to buy Clydebank's SFL "license" and indeed the footballing frankenstein that is Livingston FC taking Meadowbank Thistle's place.  If we are moving towards a league that is indeed an operation with clubs as "franchises" then let's just be open and honest about it and get on with modernising it.  I've said in posts in the past that Scottish football is far to deeply-rooted in traditionalism to move forward and I can see no set of ciscumstances under the present SPL structure where Rangers will not re-emerge as an SPL club.

 

I am/was in favour of the ten team SPL and I am undecided, but certainly not opposed to a ten or twelve-team SPL 2 with regional leagues below.  I suspect that had clubs not dragged their heels on this issue and ploughed ahead then we may not be having this conversation - Rangers' newco could be allowed into SPL 2 and very little damage would be seen to have been done.  But once again, the traditionalists that run the game, or at least hold the balance of power, vetoed the move.  A move to an MLS-style organisational structure could be the future, where the league and not clubs hold player registrations and contracts.  That way, all player transfers would be fairly dealt with by tribunals, TV and sponsor monies would be dealt out more fairly, and the opportunity to completely modernise the game from grass-roots upwards through one body.

 

I am sickened enough with the state of the SPL at the moment as it is, but a Phoenix Rangers coming out of liquidation straight into the SPL would quite probably be the death knell in terms of my attendance at any future AFC participation.  They'll always be my team, but if it's proven that mickey mouse wears a Rangers watch, I want no part of his league.

[TENEMENTFUNSTER]

I'd be a little pissed off but what influences my attendance at fitba has little to do with the huns, though I'd doubt I'd give the cunts any of my money again.

 

Very little that happens in Scottish football should be a surprise anymore and I really can't raise the enthusiasm to even get fucked off too much about the situation the huns are in (other than to laugh) or the way that the establishment is hell bent on getting them out of it.

 

The huns will exist, they will get out of this some way, some how. I'm only really interested in the Dons and how fucking hopeless we are on and off the pitch.