Independence - Yay or Nay

[dave_min]

I do agree the whole thing was very off putting, both sides unable to answer some key questions.  It probably succeeded in convincing many undecided voters not to bother voting at all.

 

I'd agree with this.

 

Thought Salmond was a bit crap.

 

Darling was significantly better than I've ever seen him.

 

The only thing the debate seems to have done is to get both sides to dig their heels in deeper.

 

Hope the next one is better, otherwise I'm gonna have to cut myself off from all social media before I kill somebody, probably myself.

[BobbyBiscuit]

Hope the next one is better, otherwise I'm gonna have to cut myself off from all social media before I kill somebody, probably myself.

 

Can empathise with this.  Fed up with the sanctimonious attitudes on both sides.

 

Politicians, largely, are wankers. Self serving wankers, too. Whether they're English or Scottish, or at Westminster or Holyrood, in the UK or an indy Scotland, that's unlikely to change in the forseeable future.

 

 

[tlg1903]

There's going to be more?

[Kowalski]

I didn't know there's going to be another debate either.

 

Totally agree about the shit on social media (from both sides).

[dave_min]

I was under the impression that there was going to be 3 of them, with the next one being on the BBC.

 

This could be wrong, but I'm not currently willing to Google the words "Scottish Independence Debate" as I fear what it'll come up with.

[Tyrant]

I thought Salmond did clearly better than Darling. Having said that I missed the first hour so that fits in with what DD Don said about how he started poorly.

 

I too am getting sick of every cunt thinking they're an expert but I still can't help but feel pissed off at the spastic reasons that some spastics are voting no for. I'm sure there are spastics who are voting yes for the wrong reasons too but at least they're guessing right.

 

Did Salmond clarify whether he plans to step down from politics if there's a yes vote? I can't help but feel that would net a few undecideds.

[Andrew]

I thought Salmond did clearly better than Darling. Having said that I missed the first hour so that fits in with what DD Don said about how he started poorly.

 

I too am getting sick of every cunt thinking they're an expert but I still can't help but feel pissed off at the spastic reasons that some spastics are voting no for. I'm sure there are spastics who are voting yes for the wrong reasons too but at least they're guessing right.

 

Did Salmond clarify whether he plans to step down from politics if there's a yes vote? I can't help but feel that would net a few undecideds.

 

A couple of horrible cunts were going on about how were too wee and small to run ourselves. What a dour moronic attitude to have.

[Tyrant]

Too wee.  Those types of pricks are wasting oxygen as well as a vote.

 

And as for the currency (non)issue... what's the problem? In the event of a yes vote we'll use the pound. Most likely within a currency union. And if there's not one then that's fine by me.

 

Plan A: £ with currency union.

Plan B: £ without formal agreement.

 

Both fine by me.

 

A currency union benefits the rest of the UK surely. So Westminster are going to be keen to negotiate something I would've thought? Although they're not going to come out and say that as it would damage their own campaign.

[Kowalski]

Thought last night's debate on BBC2 was more interesting and more like a proper debate than the shambles on STV last week.

 

An interesting comment from the Inverness Courier journalist on the panel who is an undecided - suggesting we're not voting on independence, we are voting to give Scotland the right to negotiate with the rUK the terms of independence and then sometime next year we will be presented with exactly what we'll get in terms of currency, pensions, trident etc... etc... and that's when we should be voting.  Got to agree, it's all got a bit messy and I'm struggling to believe either campaign now.  Too much scaremongering from both sides. 

[mizer]

Missed that but saw the Andrew Neil program afterwards, if I had been Welsh I would have smashed my telly at some of the comments about Wales.

[Edinburghdon]

Thought last night's debate on BBC2 was more interesting and more like a proper debate than the shambles on STV last week.

 

An interesting comment from the Inverness Courier journalist on the panel who is an undecided - suggesting we're not voting on independence, we are voting to give Scotland the right to negotiate with the rUK the terms of independence and then sometime next year we will be presented with exactly what we'll get in terms of currency, pensions, trident etc... etc... and that's when we should be voting.  Got to agree, it's all got a bit messy and I'm struggling to believe either campaign now.  Too much scaremongering from both sides. 

 

Agree with the point about it being more of a proper debate, although both sides were scaremongering too much for my liking the debate last night pushed me towards yes... I'm struggling to find one point I can trust from those on the no side last night and Danny Alexander seems like a slimy little prick. At least the yes campaigns point about being better served to make decisions on the future of Scotland seems realistic.

[Kowalski]

Surely to fuck we deserve a better debate than this? It's been horrendous, a terrible advert for politics.

[manc_don]

It was a complete waste of time. Just two men comparing their small cock size . salmond clearly won it tonight but that's nothing to be proud of. Thought the woman who said the yes campaign was fighting for the positivity of the future whereas the no campaign were fighting for their jobs made a fair point. Politicians are a waste of space.

[Kowalski]

Looks like we're heading for a very close vote with the winner being in the low 50%'s - and it could go either way.  So we'll end up with either a large minority angry that they're getting dragged into something they didn't vote for, or a large minority angry and disillusioned that we're still in a Union with the rest of the UK.

 

The fallout could be quite messy. 

 

The whole thing has been an embarrassment.

[manc_don]

Looks like we're heading for a very close vote with the winner being in the low 50%'s - and it could go either way.  So we'll end up with either a large minority angry that they're getting dragged into something they didn't vote for, or a large minority angry and disillusioned that we're still in a Union with the rest of the UK.

 

The fallout could be quite messy. 

 

The whole thing has been an embarrassment.

 

Have to say, being someone that cannot vote so been watching from afar, I was quite interested to see what the general feeling was in Scotland.  Understandably a lot of people are very passionate about their respective cause but I will be very interested to see how they manage to unite the country after this.  Either way, a lot of people are not going to be happy.

[BigAl]

In my opinion there is trouble ahead for this country.

The result is starting to look too close to call.

I fear that there are people on both sides that aren' going to sit back and accept the outcome of this.

 

Pains me to say, but stormy waters around the corner for our little country.

 

[Tyrant]

It's not going to go away, that's for sure. If 47% vote Yes and 53% vote No the 47% aren't going to just shut up and accept it. And that 47% will undoubtedly grow. Once Boris Johnson gets into No. 10 and Westminster renege on their promise for more powers for Scotland (as will happen) the Yes section will grow. It's a matter of when and not if Scotland gets independence. I just hope to fuck it's this time and not next time so we can try and put some of the oil money to better use.

 

It's split the country down the middle and bridges will have to be rebuilt. I've deleted no fewer than 2 spastic No voters from my Facebook page (mainly for calling for a No vote to secure EU membership. Ignorant mongs)

 

I'm still surprised that anyone is voting No let alone just over 50%. 

 

If you're undecided go and read The Wee Blue Book http://www.theweebluebook.com/

 

Obviously written by Yes people but the sources are either neutral or No. Do yourselves a favour and give it a read. 

[Kowalski]

It's split the country down the middle and bridges will have to be rebuilt. I've deleted no fewer than 2 spastic No voters from my Facebook page (mainly for calling for a No vote to secure EU membership. Ignorant mongs)

 

(1) Ignoring the Tory plans for a referendum on Europe for just now, how does a Yes vote secure EU membership?  You need to have a central bank.  We can't have sterlingisation and EU membership.

 

(2) Do you view all No voters as spastics?

 

I only got as far as the first page of the Wee Blue Book.  It states "On 18 September 2014, between the hours of 7am and 10pm, absolute sovereign power will lie in the hands of the Scottish people. They have to decide whether to keep it, or give it away to where their minority status makes them permanently powerless and vulnerable. " but we would be handing over control of our interest rates to a foreign country, which is less power than we have now, certainly not "absolute sovereign power".  Some folk will believe what they want to believe, not the facts.

[Tyrant]

Well you can't ignore those referendum plans?  The Tories wants the UK out of Europe. More and more of the general public feel this is the way forward. The EU have said they'll make membership for an independent Scotland as easy as possible (because we have resources they want to stay close to). The currency union that WILL, without any shadow of a doubt, happen in the event of independence means that we'll meet all the criteria.

 

That's if we even want to be in the EU as an independent country. We'd still be in the EEA (like Norway) so trade costs will remain unaffected. (Another bullshit BT scare tactic).

 

And to answer your second question: Not all of them but seemingly the vast majority are, aye. Anyone who believes all the BT campaign pish is a poor excuse for a human being.

[Kowalski]

Salmond has made it impossible for a CU by demanding one, it would make Westminister look extremely silly if they accepted one.  All the Westminister parties have said there will be no CU.  The Tories want to stay in power, and the rUK public do not want a CU with an independent Scotland.  It would be electoral suicide for the Tories or Labour to enter into a CU, they would have no chance at the next general election.

 

It's clear as day that there will not be a CU. Salmond knows this, hence why he played the "it's our pound, we're keeping it" card at the last debate with Darling.  He has deliberately blurred the lines between a CU and Sterlingisation in order to win votes.  Nationalism preys on the gullible (I'm not for one minute suggesting you are gullible by the way).

 

And why the hard-on for a CU anyway?  It's not independence.

 

Expect nothing from Westminister after a Yes vote, they'll wash their hands as the public in rUK will demand it.

 

As for an EU referendum I can't lose any sleep about it as membership definitely has its pros and cons, but I'd like to think when push comes to shove that any referendum would show that there are slightly more pros than cons.

[Tyrant]

Salmond has made it impossible for a CU by demanding one, it would make Westminister look extremely silly if they accepted one.  All the Westminister parties have said there will be no CU.  The Tories want to stay in power, and the rUK public do not want a CU with an independent Scotland.  It would be electoral suicide for the Tories or Labour to enter into a CU, they would have no chance at the next general election.

 

It's clear as day that there will not be a CU. Salmond knows this, hence why he played the "it's our pound, we're keeping it" card at the last debate with Darling.  He has deliberately blurred the lines between a CU and Sterlingisation in order to win votes.  Nationalism preys on the gullible (I'm not for one minute suggesting you are gullible by the way).

 

And why the hard-on for a CU anyway?  It's not independence.

 

Expect nothing from Westminister after a Yes vote, they'll wash their hands as the public in rUK will demand it.

 

As for an EU referendum I can't lose any sleep about it as membership definitely has its pros and cons, but I'd like to think when push comes to shove that any referendum would show that there are slightly more pros than cons.

 

You're forgetting one thing. Money.

 

Money before pride. I doubt anyone in Westminster is too concerned with looking stupid when it comes to a choice between money and looking stupid. See: Viggers, Peter. Ring any bells? That's the guy that claimed £1,600 from the tax payer for a fucking floating duck island. He knew that if that came out he'd look really stupid. But he decided the £1,600 he'd get out of it was worth it. Money is the most important thing to elitists. And I definitely don't buy that electoral suicide thing. If they campaign to the masses in England that agreeing a currency union was important to ensure Scotland paid "it's fair share" of the national deficit it wouldn't take long to convince them.

 

A CU is in the interests of the rest of the UK. It will mean Scotland takes on its share of the deficit that Westminster built up. It also means (like you alluded to) that Westminster (or the Bank of England) retain a little bit of power over us. I can assure you any hardons that I may or may not have are not for a CU. If it was up to me I'd go with plan C which is a new currency entirely. And I believe it's also a matter of when and not if that that happens also.

[Tyrant]

By the way.. I expect nothing from Westminster after a No vote. BoJo already wants to go back on plans to give us more powers if we vote against more powers. 

[Kowalski]

Power will come first for the Tories, before money.  rUK public would demand a referendum on a CU, which wouldn't pass a Yes vote.  So there will be no CU, and Salmond knows this, and it'll be dressed up to blame the Unionists when it doesn't happen.

 

Agreed, it should have been our own currency, I think that would have been a clearer vote winner but seemingly it was the most expensive option.

[manc_don]

Power will come first for the Tories, before money.  rUK public would demand a referendum on a CU, which wouldn't pass a Yes vote.  So there will be no CU, and Salmond knows this, and it'll be dressed up to blame the Unionists when it doesn't happen.

 

Agreed, it should have been our own currency, I think that would have been a clearer vote winner but seemingly it was the most expensive option.

 

Sure I read £2.4 billion for our own currency and a little bit less if we joined the Euro.  Keeping the pound is definitely the cheaper and probably the only viable option.

[Edinburghdon]

It seems the UK's stance on a CU is nothing but a scare tactic to bring about a no vote. 

 

Everything I've read on it makes it blindingly obvious that it'd be madness for rUK to say no, there would be huge drawbacks for rUK if its flat out rejected, not least being saddled with the entire UK debt.