Independence - Yay or Nay

[Andrew]

(1) Ignoring the Tory plans for a referendum on Europe for just now, how does a Yes vote secure EU membership?  You need to have a central bank.  We can't have sterlingisation and EU membership.

 

(2) Do you view all No voters as spastics?

 

I only got as far as the first page of the Wee Blue Book.  It states "On 18 September 2014, between the hours of 7am and 10pm, absolute sovereign power will lie in the hands of the Scottish people. They have to decide whether to keep it, or give it away to where their minority status makes them permanently powerless and vulnerable. " but we would be handing over control of our interest rates to a foreign country, which is less power than we have now, certainly not "absolute sovereign power".  Some folk will believe what they want to believe, not the facts.

 

With Scotland and rUK having fairly similar economies it doesn't really matter if the BoE controls Scotland's interest rates. It's not like the eurozone with countries such as Germany needing low interest rates and countries like Greece, Italy, Spain etc. needing higher interest rates.

 

But in reality I don't think economics is why you should be voting yes or no. If there is no currency union(which I think there will be) we will probably use the pound unofficially for a few years and then look to joining the euro or have our own currency. We will join the EU with being a rich country with oil and a net exporter of renewable energy. Apart from maybe a few teething problems Scotland would just be like every other small rich country ticking along just fine. Or you could vote no and as a vote winner the Tories will scrap the barnett formula, Scotland will keep subsiding the rUK and we will be forever called "subsidised benefit junkies" and dragged into illegal wars while being run by a different country. Our EU membership will be risked through not only a referendum but also by making sure the London's financial district is safe while selling any Scottish fishing rights down the drain.

 

Tl;dr You shouldn't base your vote on what will happen in the next 2-3 years but on the next 20-30 years.

[Tyrant]

Power will come first for the Tories, before money.  rUK public would demand a referendum on a CU, which wouldn't pass a Yes vote.  So there will be no CU, and Salmond knows this, and it'll be dressed up to blame the Unionists when it doesn't happen.

 

Agreed, it should have been our own currency, I think that would have been a clearer vote winner but seemingly it was the most expensive option.

 

Utter nonsense. Politicians aren't interested in what Joe public thinks about financial issues such as this! Since when have they really cared about what the public think? Like I said there is NO CHANCE of them footing "Scotland's share" of the deficit just because the public might vote against a CU. It's not up to the remaining UK public to decide on a CU.

 

And I also disagree on the own currency being a vote winner. Most people would have completely shat themselves at the thought of any sort of drastic change, especially on currency.

[Kowalski]

Utter nonsense. Politicians aren't interested in what Joe public thinks about financial issues such as this! Since when have they really cared about what the public think? Like I said there is NO CHANCE of them footing "Scotland's share" of the deficit just because the public might vote against a CU. It's not up to the remaining UK public to decide on a CU.

 

They will listen if it means they stay in Government. 

 

[Tyrant]

They will listen if it means they stay in Government.

 

 

But it won't. 

[Andrew]

They will listen if it means they stay in Government.

 

They will listen if it means keeping trident on the Clyde for a couple of decades. But anyway listening to No folks I constantly think they get worked about the semantics its embarrassing. I would much rather they stated their love for the Queen, their love for Eton rule, their love for archaic rule for the House of Lords and other such nonsenses that go with the UK parliament. I wish they answered there love for centralised power and how much it has done for other countries. How much someone else ruling Scotland has done for Scotland. Want more immigration, well your big brother that runs you down south don't so you can fuck off. You care about your fishing rights? Well the rest of the EU wants it to its sold away so we can join the common market. Do you care about your army regiments, of course not, we will make them into one. But vote no.

 

I don't want to get into systematics but what do either of David Cameron, Nick Clegg or Ed Milliband know about Scotland? But vote no. Keep getting further alienated from the real reason of independence and into the systematics. I've heard arguments about Currency, The EU, NHS, Education, Sports in Scotland. These are not issues that should be taken lightly but that are ones that in an independent country will be solved. The idea that Scotland can not be run a normal countries is an embarrassment. I do not understand what people think will happen in a yes vote.

 

We will have the option to vote for whoever we wish. We will be run by people in our own country, and not by those from Eton. The NHS, which is run by Scotland, will keep going. The pensions, which are unfunded atm by the UK government, will carry on.

 

The only real difference is that you will be run by yourselves. There will be no more borders but you will have a chance to rule yourselves. We can rid ourselves of the Eton-Oxbridge route to Prime Minister. We can start ourselves. We can start afresh. We can start a new country with a new beginning.

 

I think the quoted poster is delusional with "System Justification".

 

[Tyrant]

For a hideous drunken wreck, Andrew, you do make some sense there. 

[Andrew]

For a hideous drunken wreck, Andrew, you do make some sense there. 

 

Terribly drunk last night. I really wish I picked a better user name so I could stay more anonymous. But I am just getting annoyed about how the independence debate seems all about the short term and pernickety things. It should be about a constitutional change and on what side your on not about small things that will clearly work themselves out. Life will be more or less unchanged after independence so its about who you want to run the country really. All the unionist arguments seem to be about why Scotland can't do it rather than why Scotland should stay in the UK.

[tom_widdows]

Terribly drunk last night. I really wish I picked a better user name so I could stay more anonymous. But I am just getting annoyed about how the independence debate seems all about the short term and pernickety things. It should be about a constitutional change and on what side your on not about small things that will clearly work themselves out. Life will be more or less unchanged after independence so its about who you want to run the country really. All the unionist arguments seem to be about why Scotland can't do it rather than why Scotland should stay in the UK.

 

Unfortunately short term thinking is a hazard of politics. 5 years of a government that folks are unhappy with and the new party comes in to great fanfair. Within 6 months to a year the people are complaining and within 2 years a sizeable chunk of their voters will have turned on them because essentially nothing has changed and they aren't millionaires.

4-5 years later there is talk of the former lot getting back in because they will know what to do and everything will be fantastic. And the cycle continues

 

It would be great if everyone was content with the possibility that things might be hard, inconvenient or perhaps downright miserable for a decade while the new country finds its feet and all those teething issues are worked out  but eventually you will never have it better.

 

But 10 years is a long time if you are looking over your shoulder at redundancy and keeping your family fed and in a suitable/ nice house. Is 10 years of hassle worth it if you are a pensioner and will be dead by the time it could be great. The romantic notion of 'doing it for future generations' does not fit with a capitalist 'Me' society where its get what you can quickly and sod the rest.

 

As was mentioned earlier I also feel the whole thing has been rushed. 3 years of talk followed by 18 months campaigning is not enough to decide the future of a 5million+ country.

 

To put it into a a bit of perspective it has taken Tesco more than 6 years of negotiating, campaigning, researching etc to finally obtain outline planning permission for a medium sized supermarket on a former industrial yard in the West End of Glasgow. It will take them another 1-2 years of research, feasibility studies, meetings etc before they can obtain formal planning permission.

It will be almost a decade by the time the place finally opens (if indeed it does) and that building will only impact the people in the G11 & G14 Postcodes.

 

Exactly how much research and feasibility has been put into the yes or no campaigns because the closer we get to the date the more I see 'Opinions' being banded about as 'facts'?

 

A skill in debating is being able to anticipate what the other person may be thinking and putting yourself in their place for a short while so you can at least try to understand why they don't agree with you.

There is a distinct lack of that in both sides of the campaign and for me it has been even worse than a general election.

As an undecided the last thing that will convince me to vote either way is someone using the phrase ' I cant understand how anyone could even think of voting <insert yes or no>.

 

But we are stuck with the date now so we all need to get on with it.

 

I just hope that come September 19th everyone just accepts the decision and gets on with it.

[Andrew]

But 10 years is a long time if you are looking over your shoulder at redundancy and keeping your family fed and in a suitable/ nice house. Is 10 years of hassle worth it if you are a pensioner and will be dead by the time it could be great. The romantic notion of 'doing it for future generations' does not fit with a capitalist 'Me' society where its get what you can quickly and sod the rest.

 

 

Why would there be 10 years of hassle? Quick unscientific look at GDP per capita of recently independent countries(Montenegro, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bosina, Czech Replublic, Croatia) show that they have all being doing well with no signs of there been any penalisation for independence but rather the opposite. I am a being a bit biased as their situations are different to what Scotland's is atm but I still think its a legitimate point.

[tom_widdows]

Why would there be 10 years of hassle? Quick unscientific look at GDP per capita of recently independent countries(Montenegro, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bosina, Czech Replublic, Croatia) show that they have all being doing well with no signs of there been any penalisation for independence but rather the opposite. I am a being a bit biased as their situations are different to what Scotland's is atm but I still think its a legitimate point.

 

There may be 10 years of hassle... or it could be the smoothest transition in history.

 

And it is that doubt that the Yes campaign just cannot shake. They just haven't had the time

[tlg1903]

From the outset of this referendum a few years ago I thought that it would be a lot closer than people were predicting at the time but ultimately a no vote.  The past week or so I've actually started to dare to believe a little, this really could happen!

[Edinburghdon]

I wonder what will come of this then...

 

http://youtu.be/6Jo113LjqB0

[manc_don]

There was a statement about it on the news, no-one is going to jail. Treasury claimed it was in the best interest to stabilise the currency .

[Nellie The Don]

There was a statement about it on the news, no-one is going to jail. Treasury claimed it was in the best interest to stabilise the currency .

 

The BBC news?

 

I'm never paying a license fee again. The way they have reported over the last week has been nothing short of criminal. It's really opened my eyes to what that organisation is all about.

[Andrew]

The BBC news?

 

I'm never paying a license fee again. The way they have reported over the last week has been nothing short of criminal. It's really opened my eyes to what that organisation is all about.

 

It's an absolute joke. If I ever had bothered to to pay the license fee I would be stopping now.

 

Anyway there is only a week to go to the referendum. Take the clearly biased main stream media with a pinch of salt. Read up as much information as you can. Stay strong and in a weeks time we will finally be able to make decisions for ourselves.

 

Our we will vote no and I will be off to Ireland(maybe. if I don't get this job I'm applying to).

[baggy89]

Yesterday's breakfast was a joke. The interview with the Chairman of John Lewis being pressed on price rises post a Yes vote. He stated that over time there was likely to be differences in pricing between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK. Camera cuts back to interviewer in the studio who looks into the camera and says "There you have it the first major shopping chain to announce there will be price rises in Scotland following a yes vote in the referendum."

 

NO he fucking didn't!!! He may have been alluding to that, but he's shrewd enough to know that the opposite may also be likely and prices will be reduced over time following a yes vote, so sat on the fence with a vague "prices may differ".

 

Regardless this is the 21st Century and everyone in retail is involved in a race to the bottom. Prices rise in company A, Company B. C and D will cut them in order to take company A's customers.

[Tyrant]

The way this stuff about banks moving their head offices has been reported is a disgrace. It's merely a paperwork change which has been turned into a scare tactic. If I was with one of the 3 banks in question I'd have moved my account by now. Best way to make them pay!

[Tyrant]

The way things have panned out over the last week and seeing some of the shocking lows that No are willing to stoop to has made me more passionate than ever about getting independence once and for all. I hope to fuck we don't lie down and just accept it following a No vote. I'm really worried that we're going to miss out by the narrowest of margins.

 

Kow will be overjoyed!

[Jute]

There was a statement about it on the news, no-one is going to jail. Treasury claimed it was in the best interest to stabilise the currency .

 

So said the Treasury minister who took the briefing. He was hardly going to admit to wrong doing was he. Not even a member of the Conservative Party is that dumb. Thankfully it will not be up to him to decide if there was any wrong doing.

[manc_don]

To be fair jute. This shit happens all the time, how does news break otherwise? Salmond is making a mountain out of a molehill. Don't be fooled by the bravado. I'm not saying BBC don't have an agenda, because I think its quite clear they do but salmond is talking out of his arse. Its not news or worthy of an investigation.

[Graeme_S]

Exactly how much research and feasibility has been put into the yes or no campaigns because the closer we get to the date the more I see 'Opinions' being banded about as 'facts'?

 

A skill in debating is being able to anticipate what the other person may be thinking and putting yourself in their place for a short while so you can at least try to understand why they don't agree with you.

There is a distinct lack of that in both sides of the campaign and for me it has been even worse than a general election.

As an undecided the last thing that will convince me to vote either way is someone using the phrase ' I cant understand how anyone could even think of voting <insert yes or no>.

 

But we are stuck with the date now so we all need to get on with it.

 

I just hope that come September 19th everyone just accepts the decision and gets on with it.

 

First sensible thing I've read in months about independence.

There's so many folk wearing t shirts with 'Yes/No' on them, and 'yes/no' labels on their twitter, Facebook etc profiles that decided long ago what they are going to vote and won't give a seconds thought to any evidence from 'the other side'.

That's their prerogative, but as you say it then manifests into these folk telling everyone the 'right' way to vote.

At least in general elections folk were a bit more private about their personal choice instead of hammering folk in the faces with it 24-7.

I don't get a vote, now that I live in London (which is another bugbear of mine for another day) but I've been mostly undecided on what way I'd go if I did. At the moment it seems a choice between aspiration/hoping things work out on one side and fear of change on the other. The lack of proper evidence presented on either side is fairly depressing for such a momentous decision.

 

One point I hear repeatedly on the news/social media etc is. "It's great just how invigorated the country is at the moment. It's refreshing to see."

Maybe I'm just unlucky, but everywhere I look I see folk arguing black is white with strangers because they don't have he same slogan on their pin badge.

As Tom says, I hope that whoever wins, the result is accepted without any more conspiracy theories and demos.

[Mentorred]

First sensible thing I've read in months about independence.

There's so many folk wearing t shirts with 'Yes/No' on them, and 'yes/no' labels on their twitter, Facebook etc profiles that decided long ago what they are going to vote and won't give a seconds thought to any evidence from 'the other side'.

That's their prerogative, but as you say it then manifests into these folk telling everyone the 'right' way to vote.

At least in general elections folk were a bit more private about their personal choice instead of hammering folk in the faces with it 24-7.

I don't get a vote, now that I live in London (which is another bugbear of mine for another day) but I've been mostly undecided on what way I'd go if I did. At the moment it seems a choice between aspiration/hoping things work out on one side and fear of change on the other. The lack of proper evidence presented on either side is fairly depressing for such a momentous decision.

 

One point I hear repeatedly on the news/social media etc is. "It's great just how invigorated the country is at the moment. It's refreshing to see."

Maybe I'm just unlucky, but everywhere I look I see folk arguing black is white with strangers because they don't have he same slogan on their pin badge.

As Tom says, I hope that whoever wins, the result is accepted without any more conspiracy theories and demos.

 

I am the same, I was undecided how I would vote, if I had a vote, till a few days ago. But with lack of evidence it would be a leap of faith that as a nation we can thrive. I would probably go with my heart and vote yes.

[tlg1903]

Since the Sunday times poll a week ago there has been a big upsurge in media bullshit. I found this article a breath of fresh air, i really did. 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

 

If it's a yes vote it really will come against all odds.

[Goldie03]

Since the Sunday times poll a week ago there has been a big upsurge in media bullshit. I found this article a breath of fresh air, i really did. 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

 

If it's a yes vote it really will come against all odds.

 

^^^^^^ I love George Monbiot - he is like my fav guy on the planet at the moment - funnily enough I just gave my girls an article that he had written tonight for them to read 

[manc_don]

I wouldn't just say its been the media with their upsurge in bullshit. Its been coming from both the yes and no campaigns. But its understandable given what is at stake, just hope folk can unite on the 19th whatever the outcome. From what I've seen on social media, deep battle lines have been drawn.

 

The article you posted is definitely a nice change from everything else that has been reported though tlg. Bring on the 18th.