Reality, Truth and stuff

[Kowalski]

Not according to the lord ashcroft poll from after the referendum Kow.  It shays 16-54 were yes and 55+ were no  http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-Referendum-day-poll-summary-1409191.pdf

 

If that was true then Yes would have won surely.

 

I believe the Ashcroft poll only sampled a couple of dozen 16-17 year olds.

[Superstar Tradesman]

What does it matter, there's no denying the result.

 

I'd genuinely like to know the thoughts of the no voters now the dust has settled.

 

Are they all still firmly in the no camp?  Any detractors?

[scunnered999]

The 55... the 45... Salmond & his Nat mates have managed to get what they have always wanted - a divided Scotland.

 

Get over it & move on!

[Kowalski]

quite funny how Gordon brown has become the face of the 55. hes on the tv, radio newspapers harping on about cameron giving us the powers they lied to the 55 with.

 

Shame on anyone that voted no.

 

Just wait for the tory UKIP government next year folks.

 

coming soon to you, OPT out of EU, bedroom tax for all of Scotland (got to try it some where right)

 

Again, you've wrongly assumed that some people voted No because of what Westminister said - this is something the Yes campaign can't (or won't) seem to get their heads round.  Many no voters will have made up their minds long before the last minute bribes appeared.

[Dandy_Don]

 

Shame on anyone that voted no.

 

"Vote No for better, faster, safer change" Fucking LOL. Arseholes.

 

55% of the people who live in this country are total shit.

 

They are either feart or stupid.

 

I couldn't vote since I live in the US now, but if I had been able to I'd likely have voted Yes in the end. However, I switched between Yes and No throughout because there were valid arguments on both ends.

 

The problem is that this commentary of the '55' and the '45' and the constant 'Shame on you' and other patronising,  vulgar attacks on people who exercised their democratic right to vote is ridiculous. If the Yes campaign had educated people properly and been able to back up their claims then they'd have won. They didn't and they lost.

 

By all means the Yes campaign should continue educating people on why Independence is good for Scotland because there WILL be another referendum and Scottish independence WILL happen eventually, but the almost childish name-calling aimed at anyone that disagrees with their opinion will do absolutely no good for the cause of Scottish Independence and is more likely to cause those that voted No to dig their heels in.

 

Those who believe in Independence should focus more on getting the 'evidence' out there rather than belittling people that have yet to see it or believe in it.

 

 

 

[Edinburghdon]

I couldn't vote since I live in the US now, but if I had been able to I'd likely have voted Yes in the end. However, I switched between Yes and No throughout because there were valid arguments on both ends.

 

The problem is that this commentary of the '55' and the '45' and the constant 'Shame on you' and other patronising,  vulgar attacks on people who exercised their democratic right to vote is ridiculous. If the Yes campaign had educated people properly and been able to back up their claims then they'd have won. They didn't and they lost.

 

By all means the Yes campaign should continue educating people on why Independence is good for Scotland because there WILL be another referendum and Scottish independence WILL happen eventually, but the almost childish name-calling aimed at anyone that disagrees with their opinion will do absolutely no good for the cause of Scottish Independence and is more likely to cause those that voted No to dig their heels in.

 

Those who believe in Independence should focus more on getting the 'evidence' out there rather than belittling people that have yet to see it or believe in it.

 

This pretty much hits the nail on the head.

[BigAl]

 

The problem is that this commentary of the '55' and the '45' and the constant 'Shame on you' and other patronising,  vulgar attacks on people who exercised their democratic right to vote is ridiculous. If the Yes campaign had educated people properly and been able to back up their claims then they'd have won. They didn't and they lost.

 

By all means the Yes campaign should continue educating people on why Independence is good for Scotland because there WILL be another referendum and Scottish independence WILL happen eventually, but the almost childish name-calling aimed at anyone that disagrees with their opinion will do absolutely no good for the cause of Scottish Independence and is more likely to cause those that voted No to dig their heels in.

 

Those who believe in Independence should focus more on getting the 'evidence' out there rather than belittling people that have yet to see it or believe in it.

 

Spot on....

 

Time for folk to grow up, accept the democratic decision of the people, or remain bitter and twisted for many a year to come.

 

As in all things it's your choice

 

 

[manc_don]

:clap:

 

Can't remember the last time I read something so coherent regarding the Indyref DD.  As someone that couldn't vote, you have pretty much summarised my view of it all. Quite frankly, a lot of it is incredibly cringe worthy and people need to start having a look at themselves and focus their energies more positively.

[rocket_scientist]

I couldn't vote since I live in the US now, but if I had been able to I'd likely have voted Yes in the end. However, I switched between Yes and No throughout because there were valid arguments on both ends.

 

Anyone capable of switching between one or other major and significant consequence and arguing that there were valid arguments on BOTH sides quite patently has no idea of reality, the truth and stuff.

 

There is NO possible argument for not taking the opportunity to separate from Cameron, Obama and the rest of them.

 

Can't you see what Cameron is doing? Don't you understand that the US NEEDS war, for very obvious reasons? Do you think the world is a nice place, run by publicly-elected officials who are doing their best to help us? Can't you read the signs of the last couple of decades?

 

The US constitution has been superseded and it is now a police state. Basic human rights no longer exist. With the UK being the US puppet in its drive for world hegemony, this is the precisely the route that we are following. You think arming the police in the Highlands is just a coincidence? It's getting us used to a certain future, as is every other move.

 

http://www.storyleak.com/british-citizen-hands-himself-in-to-scotland-yard-after-pm-cameron-statements-to-un-general-assembly/

 

 

The problem is that this commentary of the '55' and the '45' and the constant 'Shame on you' and other patronising,  vulgar attacks on people who exercised their democratic right to vote is ridiculous. If the Yes campaign had educated people properly and been able to back up their claims then they'd have won. They didn't and they lost.

 

By all means the Yes campaign should continue educating people on why Independence is good for Scotland because there WILL be another referendum and Scottish independence WILL happen eventually, but the almost childish name-calling aimed at anyone that disagrees with their opinion will do absolutely no good for the cause of Scottish Independence and is more likely to cause those that voted No to dig their heels in.

 

Those who believe in Independence should focus more on getting the 'evidence' out there rather than belittling people that have yet to see it or believe in it.

 

You can cure a pig but you can't educate it. How can you produce "evidence" for a future event? What evidence do you need? How about seeing what's going on and where we're inevitably headed as part of the UK and part of Europe. It wasn't the government who raised questions about the EEC gravy train. It was UKIP who accelerated the obvious, and Farage in Strasbourg as an MEP was fucking tremendous when he exposed the hypocrisy and lies, on his own, as a one man band, right in the face of the newly elected head bastard.

 

The IMF and central Bank are corrupt, as is the whole system. You think the bail out of the banks, stealing BILLIONS of our money was an unfortunate accident? You either know what's going on or you haven't got a fucking clue.

 

Boo fucking hoo if a few words on an internet forum offend you. Grow a set, you utter wimp. You and your politically correct supporting posters would make Obama and Cameron proud. You are exactly the population they have engineered.

[Dandy_Don]

 

Alas you prove the point brilliantly (although it did take you longer than I expected to be honest) - you don't have facts but rather wild speculation and conspiracy theories which help you form your opinion and then resort to name-calling (the sign of a true internet hard-man) when someone has their own opinion that differs from yours.

 

we're inevitably headed as part of the UK and part of Europe

You do understand that Independence would likely have lead to closer ties with Europe or at least equal with what we have today? If the British government followed through on their threats not to form a currency union then it's also entirely feasible we would have a European currency.

 

How can you produce "evidence" for a future event? What evidence do you need?

Let's make it simple for you and use an analogy. If someone wants to build a house, they have an architect come in and draw up some plans. Things may change - either budget reasons or environment issues etc that may cause them to change their vision - but ultimately they have some form of blueprint with some calculations and plans as to where they are heading. They generally have a budget or a plan to get a budget. They don't borrow some chalk and a blackboard and draw a square on it and then say 'this is my hoose', expect a builder to come in and build it, have no clear idea of how to fund it and then insult everyone who asks any questions or suggests that they may want to add some additional detail to the design. (Note you may have some people that want to follow the latter path but most people would be averse to that type of risk just for clarity).

 

It's fine to believe in a dream and the perfect utopia if you live in a fantasy world but for the rest of us in the real world we have to depend on facts and rational reasoning. You seem to be against the 'Police State' in America, yet want to be the Chief Thought Police Officer in Scotland... get the irony there?

 

[rocket_scientist]

Putting aside that your only point was diddums, name calling as you had no real conviction either way, and also the absurdity of the concepts of "hard men" and "thought control" on an Internet forum, not to mention that you have no opinion to differ from, your only point being nasty bad man calling no voters fearties or stupid, it was never about knowing what the future would bring, it was only about changing the course that we were on.

 

There were no guarantees if we chose independence. There are no guarantees. In life, other than death.

 

Some of you need cast iron certainties. Some of us take risks.  I never spoke about Utopias but I can't imagine what "facts and rational reasoning" you were looking at if you couldn't even have a conviction either way.

 

As for conspiracy theories, let's hear one? What specific "conspiracy theory" do I have? What specifically do you disagree with? Or does anyone who has the courage to have any conviction make you shit your pants?

[Andrew]

Let's make it simple for you and use an analogy. If someone wants to build a house, they have an architect come in and draw up some plans. Things may change - either budget reasons or environment issues etc that may cause them to change their vision - but ultimately they have some form of blueprint with some calculations and plans as to where they are heading. They generally have a budget or a plan to get a budget. They don't borrow some chalk and a blackboard and draw a square on it and then say 'this is my hoose', expect a builder to come in and build it, have no clear idea of how to fund it and then insult everyone who asks any questions or suggests that they may want to add some additional detail to the design. (Note you may have some people that want to follow the latter path but most people would be averse to that type of risk just for clarity).

 

Risk taking is why things change. People like you are why we will never get rid of the Queen, why drugs will never be legal, why we will never have a proportional representation of parliament, never get rid of the house of lords, why the UK will never be a secular country and why will never be able to have an independent Scotland all while the privileged few will still run this country. Shit analogy as well. If your wanting the future of a new country to be as basic as building a house then you will never have the courage to vote yes. Global and national economics is uncertain.

[Andrew]

A better analogy would be living with your parents vs moving out. Scotland atm is living with her parents. You get given the money and told what to do with some of it. You can make some choices but not too many. Your parents drag you to things you don't want to do. Or you can move out, and things maybe risky for a while and may not turn out exactly as you planned but you will have economic and personally freedom to live how you wish. You could even be richer by harnessing yourself exactly how you wish. You see your parents going to big meetings and worrying about big events while you don't worry and just get on with things.

[Superstar Tradesman]

Besides his name-calling (that he'll not admit to) I'm with Rocket on this.

 

As he said, the Indie Ref 'was never about knowing what the future would bring, it was only about changing the course that we were on'.

 

Now we're stuck in a cycleclic nightmare of illegal wars, fighting boogey men that multinational corporations had previously bankrolled to train and arm to fight the previous bunch of boogey men that they'd lined up for the chopping block.  Meanwhile back home we're constantly spoonfed propaganda by the media these companies control, telling us we simply must eradicate this overseas 'threat' so that we can sleep soundly at night whilst the real issues at home like selling off the NHS, quietly passing gagging, fracking and surveillance laws onto the unsuspecting public.

 

Why did our government go to court to defend banker's receiving their obsorbitant bonuses?  Forget all that, what about ISIS?

 

Inceasing poverty, increasing inequality, continual increases in the retirement age, decreases in basic human rights, decreases in democratic rights.  Ahhh, but what about this one taxi driver that got his napper lopped off in a dusty hut somewhere in the Middle East?

 

It's slight of hand, misdirection, smoke and mirrors on a grand scale and it's astounding how many are falling for it.  As Rocket says 'you and your politically correct supporting posters would make Obama and Cameron proud. You are exactly the population they have engineered'.

 

Call that a conspiracy theory if you like but I just call it a low threshold for tolerating bullshit.

 

We had a real chance of seperating ourselves from all this nonsense and we royally fucked it up.

[Dandy_Don]

People like you are why we will never get rid of the Queen, why drugs will never be legal, why we will never have a proportional representation of parliament, never get rid of the house of lords, why the UK will never be a secular country and why will never be able to have an independent Scotland all while the privileged few will still run this country.

Did you even read what I wrote? Had I been able to vote, I'd likely have voted yes.

 

And, by the way, I quite like your analogy. However, before you move out, it's a good idea to have a place to stay, some money to get you started and a plan to earn money to keep you going - otherwise you're likely going to end up on the streets or crawling back to mummy and daddy at some point (unless you get incredibly lucky). On the other hand, if you're expecting other people to pay for you while you doss about on internet forums in the middle of the night pretending to have had a couple of shandy's then we may have a different view of an Independent Scotland.

 

 

There were no guarantees if we chose independence.

Who said anything about guarantees? Coherent arguments and facts to back up your point of view, along with civilized debate are all I'm looking for. As I said, I'd likely have voted yes - but slagging people off for the sake of it because they have a different point of view is hardly going to win them over. And whether you like it or not, for the next Independence Referendum you'll have to win them over if you want to have an Independent Scotland.

 

 

I don't have an issue with that point of view ST (and I actually agree with some of it) except this part

We had a real chance of seperating ourselves from all this nonsense

Whatever we'd like to think, we'd still have had to join Europe (and therefore been pressured to follow the wishes of the big boys) and we'd still - likely - have joined NATO. Politicians are different cheeks of the same arse and it's naive at best to assume that an Independent Scotland would suddenly become this shining beacon of what's right in the world. Hell we fought for years over a golf course on land nobody was using and have been waiting on a by-pass for the best part of 40 years!

 

[Tyrant]

Putting aside that your only point was diddums, name calling as you had no real conviction either way, and also the absurdity of the concepts of "hard men" and "thought control" on an Internet forum, not to mention that you have no opinion to differ from, your only point being nasty bad man calling no voters fearties or stupid, it was never about knowing what the future would bring, it was only about changing the course that we were on.

 

There were no guarantees if we chose independence. There are no guarantees. In life, other than death.

 

Some of you need cast iron certainties. Some of us take risks.  I never spoke about Utopias but I can't imagine what "facts and rational reasoning" you were looking at if you couldn't even have a conviction either way.

 

As for conspiracy theories, let's hear one? What specific "conspiracy theory" do I have? What specifically do you disagree with? Or does anyone who has the courage to have any conviction make you shit your pants?

 

I can only assume that he was referring to the corruption that you were speaking about. Although I don't think you can call it a conspiracy theory when we've seen evidence time and time again that these elitist leaders are in it for themselves, for their pockets and for their rich friends' pockets.

[rocket_scientist]

Who said anything about guarantees? Coherent arguments and facts to back up your point of view, along with civilized debate are all I'm looking for. As I said, I'd likely have voted yes - but slagging people off for the sake of it because they have a different point of view is hardly going to win them over. And whether you like it or not, for the next Independence Referendum you'll have to win them over if you want to have an Independent Scotland.

 

I don't have to convince any cunt about anything. I'm not a politician, have never presented myself as one and have no desire to be one. I don't even have to back up my point of view, especially when there is no coherent debate. I can't begin to imagine how conversing with a weak wimp like you is going to benefit me. The world is full of wankers. Stupid, feart wankers.

[tom_widdows]

I don't have to convince any cunt about anything. I'm not a politician, have never presented myself as one and have no desire to be one. I don't even have to back up my point of view, especially when there is no coherent debate. I can't begin to imagine how conversing with a weak wimp like you is going to benefit me. The world is full of wankers. Stupid, feart wankers.

 

Wow this is like the early days of AFC Chat (or any internet message board for that matter).

 

 

Wonder how long before we see classics such as 'my <insert relative here> has software that can track yer IP Address so when he next comes round yer dead'

[Andrew]

And, by the way, I quite like your analogy. However, before you move out, it's a good idea to have a place to stay, some money to get you started and a plan to earn money to keep you going - otherwise you're likely going to end up on the streets or crawling back to mummy and daddy at some point (unless you get incredibly lucky). On the other hand, if you're expecting other people to pay for you while you doss about on internet forums in the middle of the night pretending to have had a couple of shandy's then we may have a different view of an Independent Scotland.

 

A bit close to the bone. I'm at least looking for a job while dossing about doing nothing.