Ryan Jack

[thestooge]

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion fella, I just dinna agree with much of it.  I just dinna like saying that a professional will willfully stop trying for his side for whatever reason.

 

I read a good article recently that was essentially a discussion of the old school "goals are the only stat that matters" vs the stat obsession of many modern managers, with Van Gaal central to the article.

 

The crux of the article came down to the conflict between "scoring goals wins games" and "winning games scores goals".  Essentially the point was, in the main, old fashioned marauding sides going head to head with opponents has given way to possession dominated football where essentially you're looking to choke the life out of your opponent, using Van Gaal's United and Ferguson's history as a template.

 

I thought it was very appropriate for us.  Even when we were on our great run, we never looked like battering an opponent.  We had a solid defence, well protected by two deep midfielders, with Jack in particular doing a great job in the first 8 games.  However, in my opinion we were still a very cautious side.  Even with McGinn and Hayes providing dangerous balls into the box regularly, they rarely had more than two targets in the box, with McLean likely arriving late too.  Our quality, and indeed our form, was bringing results but it wasn't necessarily hugely convincing and i think most fans were crying out for another goal threat before the window closed (Parker clearly isn't that, unfortunately).

 

I think tactically, we're still approaching games as we were in Aug/Sept, only now, with a lack of form and confidence, our additional quality isn't converting the one or two chances it was previously and our caution is holding us back.  Instead of making difficult decisions about who our back four are and trusting them to get the job done, McInnes is looking for midfield to provide additional protection, getting fans on Jack's back and further isolating our strike force.  That is based on TV rather than being there live though so I accept that may be wrong.

 

I think McInnes will stick to the "winning games scores goals" approach so I think we have to hope that the collective form improves this weekend.  We'll need guys like Jack, but also other senior players like McGinn and Hayes to really up their game and start converting the chances we do create.

 

Out of interest, do you think we will win on Saturday or do you think there is a festering wound within the camp that will continue to hold us back?  If we do win, do you think it's a one off against a shitey United and the ugliness will re-emerge next week?  If we went on to win the next few games on the bounce would that change your suspicions about a bust up?

[BobbyBiscuit]

I think we'll win mostly due to how ding United are.

 

I have seen plenty of poor Aberdeen sides and a few good ones. When the few good ones have had a wee bad spell it was never like this. Body language - which can be misinterpreted for sure - was never as alarming as it is now; the manner in which they're communicating seems different etc. Jack and Hayes not tracking back when they should, Ward seeming to be the only line of defence never mind the last...

 

Even if we win the next few it won't change my mind that something internally has caused this particular slump. I don't believe it's just a dip in form.  The spirit that was shown against Celtic is nowhere to be seen. That spirit doesn't just disappear because we lost one cup tie.

 

I genuinely hope I'm wrong about that, but I just don't think I am unfortunately. Once a dressing room "goes", it's very hard to get it back.

[rocket_scientist]

I don't think the dressing room has gone. I would like to think Jack is speaking the truth.

 

But something has gone wrong and someone has, or some persons have, fucked up somewhere.

 

Or we're just not very good.

 

Given the magic at Tynecastle and the fact we beat Celtic in that run - although I didn't see that game - I would say that our squad IS good enough not to serve up fucking pish for many weeks on end, as they have been doing.

 

As we've said all along, we don't know why it went pear-shaped. The fact that it has done is indisputable.

 

Like you bb, I'm watching half arsed when it was passion-fuelled before. The win at Motherwell was immense, going behind and then fighting like fuck all day, the whole game. Seen none of that since the Easter Road debacle.

 

SOMETHING HAS CHANGED. I've been watching for almost 50 years. This slump is inexplicable and therefore it's no surprise cunts are speculating and coming up with the "ridiculous" in exploring all possibilities. The one thing it isn't is bad luck and stats. These players are performing differently.

 

Maybe it's as simple as they don't have the requisite belief and expectation that they're good enough and shat it, being of fragile confidence, being a team of "losers", having never won anything their whole lives but I don't think it is that. Fuck knows.

[baggy89]

I went to an EFA CPD session a few years ago. The two young lads taking it gave us a list of players, Carrick, Lampard, Gerrard, Xavi, etc. and asked who was the best player.

 

There was a fair bit of discussion. I though it was a shite question without criteria and told them so, and let my group get on with it (I think the answer the group gave was Carrick because the loud funny one was a Man U fan).

 

All the groups answered and gave their reasons.

 

Then the two smug lads told us it was Xavi as he has the most passes and highest pass completion rate in top flight European football. I piped up "Well if that's your criteria your answer is wrong. Leon Britton is the best player in the world" They looked incredulously at me, one even asked who Leon Britton was...

 

I suppose they were young lads being employed by the FA so their arrogance led them to believe they were more knowledgable than a load of dad coaches and were keen to use stats to prove their theory.

 

That said, I believe stats can be used effectively in football just not in isolation and not by the wrong people. They can't be used to prove an opinion but could be used collectively to form opinion, which could then be tested for accuracy by observation of actual play.

 

Similarly I was also told by an old head "Never tell your players they are unlucky, there is no bad luck in football only bad technique. Practice makes permanent."

 

I wonder if the flying start had a few believing their own hype. There were mentions of title challenges etc. Our best run's come when everyone is keeping their heads down.

 

McInnes needs to get the focus back.

 

[manc_don]

Excellent post, baggy 

 

Off topic but how is the coaching going?

[thestooge]

They can't be used to prove an opinion but could be used collectively to form opinion, which could then be tested for accuracy by observation of actual play.

 

 

I agree with that.

 

As I said in my initial post, stats will always require context.

 

Pass completion stats are an important indicator of Xavi's success though.  Essentially they highlight why a team, at the absolute highest level of the game, were able to evolve tactically to dominate football at both club and international level.

 

If Leon Britton had Champions League, World Cup and a European Championship medals then comparing his stats to Xavi's might be relevant.

 

Britton's stats are impressive within their own context though and it's true that he has been central to the success of Swansea over a sustained period, including their first ever domestic trophy win.

 

Did anyone see the stats from the Bournemouth vs Newcastle game?

 

Newcastle won 1-0, which, of course, is ultimately is the most important stat, but even the most basic match stats inform of a very different game.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34686457

 

Personally, I'd say that Newcastle were lucky rather than they had better technique than Bournemouth.

 

On Jack, I though he had a decent game on Saturday.  Not a motm performance but it was solid enough, a couple of sloppy passes aside.  He was getting a lot of unnecessary stick for retaining the ball, as usual, but I thought when Robson came on it highlighted how important that side of the game is for us.  Robson, in the 10 mins he was on the park got caught on the ball a couple of times and wasted possession with long, speculative passes which immediately resulted in United getting the ball and a chance to push on to us.  Jack could really do with being more incisive and I'd like him to be a bit more direct but, overall for the way we play, discretion is the better part of valor.

[Tyrant]

I agree with that.

 

As I said in my initial post, stats will always require context.

 

Pass completion stats are an important indicator of Xavi's success though.  Essentially they highlight why a team, at the absolute highest level of the game, were able to evolve tactically to dominate football at both club and international level.

 

If Leon Britton had Champions League, World Cup and a European Championship medals then comparing his stats to Xavi's might be relevant.

 

Britton's stats are impressive within their own context though and it's true that he has been central to the success of Swansea over a sustained period, including their first ever domestic trophy win.

 

Did anyone see the stats from the Bournemouth vs Newcastle game?

 

Newcastle won 1-0, which, of course, is ultimately is the most important stat, but even the most basic match stats inform of a very different game.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34686457

 

Personally, I'd say that Newcastle were lucky rather than they had better technique than Bournemouth.

 

On Jack, I though he had a decent game on Saturday.  Not a motm performance but it was solid enough, a couple of sloppy passes aside.  He was getting a lot of unnecessary stick for retaining the ball, as usual, but I thought when Robson came on it highlighted how important that side of the game is for us.  Robson, in the 10 mins he was on the park got caught on the ball a couple of times and wasted possession with long, speculative passes which immediately resulted in United getting the ball and a chance to push on to us.  Jack could really do with being more incisive and I'd like him to be a bit more direct but, overall for the way we play, discretion is the better part of valor.

 

 

Those sloppy passes both directly resulted in attempts at our goal and on another day could have cost us points. I don't think Jack played well but what I will say for him is that he wasn't hiding. He gave it his all and still wanted the ball. So more of that please Ryan.

[rocket_scientist]

Only one was a sloppy pass. The other time, the first one, he was so slow he got stripped of possession. His crime was not thinking effectively, not having a clue what he was going to do with it and not having a plan to execute.

 

That he wanted the ball so much, good.

That he did nothing with it all the time, bad.

 

If he's international class then I'm a Spanish waiter in Austria.

[RicoS321]

Una cerveza por favor.

[Graeme_S]

Una cerveza por favor.

And a portion of Strudel please.

 

[manc_don]

 

Those sloppy passes both directly resulted in attempts at our goal and on another day could have cost us points. I don't think Jack played well but what I will say for him is that he wasn't hiding. He gave it his all and still wanted the ball. So more of that please Ryan.

 

Obviously you can only tell so much from highlights but it looked a lot more like what we used to see. Despite his sloppy pass which should have resulted in a goal for the Arabs, he tracked back and apologised. Much better than previous weeks. Shame the international break has arrived again. Always seems to come at the wrong time for us

[Tyrant]

Obviously you can only tell so much from highlights but it looked a lot more like what we used to see. Despite his sloppy pass which should have resulted in a goal for the Arabs, he tracked back and apologised. Much better than previous weeks. Shame the international break has arrived again. Always seems to come at the wrong time for us

 

 

That is true. Truth be told I was waiting for him to scream at someone and blame them but in fairness he held his hand up. Still need to improve a lot though.

[manc_don]

According to DM in the EE, Jack might feature on Saturday, we need to have a strong midfield against Dundee.

[Tyrant]

According to DM in the EE, Jack might feature on Saturday, we need to have a strong midfield against Dundee.

 

Better give him another week to recover then.

[Stewart]

All things being equal, and with the perennial caveat of "if he plays", Ryan Jack will make his own little bit of Aberdeen history on Wednesday night as he will play his 200th game for the Dons, making him just the 73rd player in AFC history to achieve the double century.

 

http://www.afc.co.uk/news/7204.php#.VoJXNPmLSM8

[Tyrant]

Unless his form picks up he won't be playing too many more!

[manc_don]

Sounds like he and Willo should be fit for the final run in. With the way we are playing at the moment it's hard to see how they'll fit in but having them fit is definitely a bonus as we'll need to rotate the squad. Middle trio of Storie / Jack / McLean wouldn't be bad at all.

[Chris Frae Killie]

Did anyone else notice Jack disappearing up the tunnel during injury time on his crutches in at Tynecastle last week? Game still had a couple of minutes left. I was a bit disappointed to be honest, as captain I expect him to stay and support the team to the bitter end and face the music if we don't win. If he had not come back out because he needed treatment or even had to go to hospital then fair enough, however, he was obviously ok as he had got changed into a tracksuit and had crutches so why disappear up the tunnel when the game was still on. I like him as a player but don't rate him as a captain. He is still too young in the head and comes across a a huffy wee boy at times.

[RicoS321]

Did anyone else notice Jack disappearing up the tunnel during injury time on his crutches in at Tynecastle last week? Game still had a couple of minutes left. I was a bit disappointed to be honest, as captain I expect him to stay and support the team to the bitter end and face the music if we don't win. If he had not come back out because he needed treatment or even had to go to hospital then fair enough, however, he was obviously ok as he had got changed into a tracksuit and had crutches so why disappear up the tunnel when the game was still on. I like him as a player but don't rate him as a captain. He is still too young in the head and comes across a a huffy wee boy at times.

 

I think you're making something out of nothing there to suit your point. I agree with your point that Jack doesn't suit the captaincy, but there are endless reasons that he might have left early that we will just never know. He could have needed a shite. McInnes possibly told him to beat the post-match rush so that he didn't get knocked over going down the tunnel (I once left a game early whilst on crutches for that very reason). The physio could have told him to get moving to keep the injury from stiffening up in the cold. There are umpteen reasons, but the main thing I take from it is not to to read too much into trivialities.

[Chris Frae Killie]

Take your point Rico, there are many other reasons why but given that there were only a couple of minutes left and to avoid a crowded tunnel he could just wait until the end sadly I think I might be right. It is trivial though and in the grand scheme of things doesn't really matter but I still don't think he should be captain next season. I would like to see Shinnie get the armband.

[Edinburghdon]

I think you're making something out of nothing there to suit your point. I agree with your point that Jack doesn't suit the captaincy, but there are endless reasons that he might have left early that we will just never know. He could have needed a shite. McInnes possibly told him to beat the post-match rush so that he didn't get knocked over going down the tunnel (I once left a game early whilst on crutches for that very reason). The physio could have told him to get moving to keep the injury from stiffening up in the cold. There are umpteen reasons, but the main thing I take from it is not to to read too much into trivialities.

 

Totally agree, there could be many reasons for him disappearing up the tunnel, to make a big deal out of it just screams of people looking for anything at all to be offended by. (As with mcginn at parkhead  )

 

I do agree that Shinnie should be captain next season though, more suited to it and let's Jack concentrate on his game.

[manc_don]

DM has confirmed that Jack is to have surgery and will be out for several weeks...

 

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/aberdeen-fc/skipper-jack-facing-surgery-and-lengthy-spell-out/

 

With McLean being fucking useless at the moment, this isn't great news at all.  Think the biggest disappointment is that Jack was actually showing some form again, form which we all knew he had but didn't appear to be capable of rediscovering.  Hope it's a speedy recovery. Woohoo to squad depth.

 

Dons captain Ryan Jack could be facing several weeks on the sidelines because of a knee injury.

 

Jack has had scans done on the injury, which kept him out of last weekend’s 2-1 victory over Partick Thistle.

 

Dons boss Derek McInnes confirmed the scans have shown Jack will require surgery and could be out for several weeks.

 

McInnes said: “Ryan will see a specialist surgeon to find out what work needs to be done on his injured knee.

 

“We have accepted he will need surgery.

 

“We are hoping we are talking a matter of weeks rather than months in terms of Ryan being out. We won’t really know until he has been examined properly.”

 

Winger Jonny Hayes is also sidelined at the moment because of a torn hamstring.

 

McInnes revealed midfielder Peter Pawlett is also a major doubt for Saturday’s league visit to Celtic because of an unspecified injury.

 

But he remains convinced they can still get the result they want at Celtic Park.

 

McInnes said: “Injuries are part and parcel of the game.

 

“We will just crack on with it, there is no sense of doom and gloom in our camp.

 

“We have won big games without key players before and are confident we can do that again.

 

“It’s a case of adapting and seeing how others react to having the chance to play.”

[Reidzer 1314]

Big blow for us at the moment. As you say, Jack looked very impressive the past few games and its showed how much we missed him against Partick.

 

Surely we have to get a new CM in now??

[RicoS321]

Surely we have to get a new CM in now??

 

This. A real blow to have Jack out. A midfielder should have been sorted out weeks ago.

 

A chance for Storie to step up in place of Jack with McLean instead of Pawlett at the weekend perhaps.

[manc_don]

This. A real blow to have Jack out. A midfielder should have been sorted out weeks ago.

 

A chance for Storie to step up in place of Jack with McLean instead of Pawlett at the weekend perhaps.

 

I genuinely fear for Saturday. Consi doesn't play well against Celtic let alone at the tattie dome and given this outcome I can't see dm not playing Shinnie in midfield again. It makes you question what they were doing during the whole khalid situation. I thought there were other options?!?