Brexit - Will it happen

[donsdaft]

And yet the SNP, unless they change, want to leave the UK but stay/join the EU.

 

Brexit has weakened the case for Indy, only because this whole shambles will put some folk off voting for Indy. Even though Indy couldn’t and shouldn’t be as complicated as trying to exit the EU.

 

 

 

You're joking min.

The English will love making it as hard and complicated as they can.

 

Our only hope is being equal partners with the English within the EU

 

 

 

 

I would love to see their faces however if we got independence re joined the EU and also signed up for Shengen.

 

 

They think they've got a border with the Irish do they?

[Ten Caat]

Can see no other outcome now than a total postponement of Brexit. Followed by a general election as the Tories self implode.

 

I can see the Tory party splitting into 2 separate parties in the not too distant future. One a centrist, less radical, pro European party. The other advocating a fairly hard brexit and probably inviting the remnants of UKIP to join forces (for those who are outside the UK or have been holidaying on Jupiter, UKIP has in the past few months been infiltrated by new members closely affiliated with the BNP resulting in recent resignations from the party of (in UKIP terms) fairly high profile members including Farage).

[RicoS321]

Can see no other outcome now than a total postponement of Brexit. Followed by a general election as the Tories self implode.

 

I can see the Tory party splitting into 2 separate parties in the not too distant future. One a centrist, less radical, pro European party. The other advocating a fairly hard brexit and probably inviting the remnants of UKIP to join forces (for those who are outside the UK or have been holidaying on Jupiter, UKIP has in the past few months been infiltrated by new members closely affiliated with the BNP resulting in recent resignations from the party of (in UKIP terms) fairly high profile members including Farage).

 

As long as FPTP remains, there will never be a split of either the Tories or Labour. I've always thought that FPTP is an awful system, because it is. However, if it were to be replaced by PR it would actually make little difference given the lack of spread between large parts of the parties. As we see with this Brexit fuck up, there is a form of PR within the actual parties themselves. Currently, there is probably as great a divide between yer Blairites and Corbynistas (as they're both called) or yer Hard and Soft Brexiteers as there is between yer Blairites and Soft Brexiters. Yer left with this shite:

 

 

HardBrexiters----------SoftB---LibDem---Blairites-----------Corbynites

 

Basically all the decision making happens in that centre space, with a few limited foray into/appeasements to the right and left at times. That model above could easily be illustrating a 5 party system in a PR arragement, with a few limited forays into/appeasements to the left and right wings.

 

Fit I mean is, that a split is unlikely as that would involve losing the power that is only possible through FPTP. However, if it happened, it would have to be aaccompanied by a shift to PR. Depressingly, I think we'd be left with the same shite regardless. That centre circle of Soft Brexit to Blairites can never be pulled far enough in either direction to provide solutions to the challenges that are actually required for us to become a next level fucking ace species.

 

I think I should probably be in charge. This shit doesn't work.

[donsdaft]

I was going to suggest taking charge myself.

 

I'm quite happy to hand over the reigns to you after a year though if you want.

 

By that time I should have things sorted out.

[manc_don]

Quite a pumping for May

[Elgindon]

 

You paint a not very nice picture there Manc    does this mean a GE?   

[manc_don]

It would have to be a second referendum.  GE solves nothing. That or asking for an extension to Article 50

[Kowalski]

Quite the shambles most of us expected 2 years ago. Article 50 needs to be stopped/postponed ASAP.

 

It’s a shame the government will win the confidence vote.

[TheDeeDon]

It's a shambles, but it's been badly handled since the day the after the vote and doesn't look like ending anytime soon.

 

I think the best thing to do is postpone it for the moment and go for another referendum and see what the opinion of the country is now after the past two years. I suspect it would be a clear vote to remain, but fuck knows what happens if leave won again.

[rocket_scientist]

It's been a shambles because the people involved are shambolic. May, Davies, Hunt, Grayling, Gove, Mundell etc. are all products of an arselicking fraternity without integrity nor a brain or a testicle between them.

 

The people voted to leave the EU for a very simple reason. We don't want another level of political types governing us, particularly an unelected bunch who's sole purpose is the furtherance of the corrupt globalist agenda. If our elected officials did deliver what the democratic process demanded, France and Italy would be next and the EU would collapse, as it should. The cost of maintaining the status quo would be total disaster and subjugation, the Orwellian nightmare in its fullest form.

 

Years of a complicit presstitute media have confused the middle classes, who's intake of processed food, drugs and political correctness have dumbed them down to a frightening degree. It's not just speaking truth that has become a revolutionary act, but seeing truth.

[RicoS321]

It's been a shambles because the people involved are shambolic. May, Davies, Hunt, Grayling, Gove, Mundell etc. are all products of an arselicking fraternity without integrity nor a brain or a testicle between them.

 

The people voted to leave the EU for a very simple reason. We don't want another level of political types governing us, particularly an unelected bunch who's sole purpose is the furtherance of the corrupt globalist agenda. If our elected officials did deliver what the democratic process demanded, France and Italy would be next and the EU would collapse, as it should. The cost of maintaining the status quo would be total disaster and subjugation, the Orwellian nightmare in its fullest form.

 

Years of a complicit presstitute media have confused the middle classes, who's intake of processed food, drugs and political correctness have dumbed them down to a frightening degree. It's not just speaking truth that has become a revolutionary act, but seeing truth.

 

The bit in bold, I'm not sure that is the case. I don't believe the majority of people who voted leave knowingly did so because of globalism. Certainly not enough to take the threshhold beyond a 50% majority (i.e. the additional 2 percent). They might have railed against the results of globalism, but it could easily be argued that they railed against the results of austerity. Either way, it was a decision based in ignorance (I didn't vote, because I didn't have the knowledge to back that vote up) as can easily be seen in the resulting chaos. The referendum was a fundamental misrepresenting of representative democracy, and it should be ignored completely with a full apology to the electorate and explanation in doing so. As you say, the incompetents tasked with Brexit are not up to it, but nor do they have the convinction and strength to tell the public something that they don't want to here and dictate that that is what is happening. The bullshit about "respecting the people's choice" or "respecting the referendum" needs to be torn to pieces. There wasn't single Tory policy dependent on leaving the EU, so there was no constitutional requirement for change. Cancel Brexit, get an anti-globalist party together with a distinct set of policies which cannot be delivered as part of the EU and people (me, you) can vote for them based on those policies. Being part of the EU isn't a feeling or a throw-away status symbol, it's a tool and series of rules by which the UK runs its economy based on the manifesto(s) of the various parties represented in its parliament. The moment the EU prevents those manifesto promises then we user our elected representatives to negotiate so that they can be met or they leave. This is the sole reason why we cannot get a deal. There was no manifesto for it. Nothing written down that could definitively say what we were voting for.

 

Furthermore, that backstop is basically a safe route back into the EU. May's deal and remaining are pretty much the same end goal, just that May's deal will end up with years of negotiations in the meantime before the public elect a party who promise to end the backstop and go back to being part of the EU with a couple of appeasing changes thrown in.

[rocket_scientist]

I have no doubt that the electorate includes racists and the incredibly stupid, most of whom would have voted leave. Just like the incredibly stupid and gullible voted remain because people in suits and plummy accents told them to.

 

You're making the same mistake Rico. You're talking in the same language, of deals and backstops. It's all spin, designed to obfuscate. We voted to leave. It was a very simple choice. Leaving the EU means not paying them £50m a day and it doesn't require a "deal". We just stop paying them and we exit. Trade isn't going to cease when we do. Business will always find a way. It's politicians with different agendas and "skills" who want to assume control. They have everything to lose. Haven't you seen the buildings and the expenses that we, the European workers paid for? Are you aware of the expenses claims made at Westminster? Do you know what's being engineered in our NHS?

 

Politics is completely corrupt, rotten to the core. They don't serve the people. They serve themselves and principally their unelected masters. Their nephews and fathers-in-law and brothers and sisters get rich from not doing anything. Be part of the system, donate and buy into their "cause" e.g. G4S, Carillion and SeaBorne and the public purse will be diverted your way.

 

Listening to Sky and BBC is tantamount to putting blinkers on. There is only truth and you won't get it from the fake news. The truth is, we voted to leave the EU. The Conservative party, your elected government, didn't think we would vote leave. Their arrogance and their detachment from the people couldn't imagine the result of the referendum. Their pretence of integrity and democracy can't hide the truth and they're in a total quandary. The media are deliberately adding to the confusion by talking in riddles, in "deals" and "backstops". None of them want change but the people do.

 

Edit: Your use of the word "austerity" is another terminological mistake. Just like 2008 after the run on Northern Rock sparked the collapse of the house of cards, where none of them could envisage that the CLO's would ever see the light of day and billions were taken from the public purse to prop up their system and "save the banks", Brown buying RBS, the people didn't stop working. Our businesses didn't lose money. Our productivity didn't drop. The word austerity was introduced to justify public spending reductions and to reduce our expectations. We were told to "tighten our belts" but we hadn't done anything wrong. Austerity is a political tool used by the totally corrupt puppets of the globalist masters.

 

Edit II: Boris and Jacob have been noticeably quiet of late. Can we imagine that the masters might have had a word with them? Were their children threatened? Was the file of their dirty laundry revealed?

[RicoS321]

I know the issues regarding both the EU and Westminster, I'm not arguing for or against either. I'm simply saying that the vote to leave is utterly irrelevant and wasn't representative democracy, which is how our existing system works. The referendum doesn't fit into our system, hence why there is no solution. That is because our representatives do not recognise "no deal" as a viable solution. You will not get a majority in parliament to vote to leave the EU without a deal, so it's irrelevant whether it is easy/possible/difficult to leave the EU at the end of March. There is no obfuscation or confusion there just a thing that is. Saying that it was "a very simple choice" is also irrelevant, because it was not our decision to make. There is currently nothing in the Labour or Conservative manifestos that require us to leave the EU, ergo it does not need to be done. They need to cancel it, re-write their manifestos if they so choose and then use their authority as our representatives to decide whether those things can be achieved within the EU and leave otherwise. That's how representative democracy works, not a sham of a referendum. I would definitely vote for a party who's policies required us to leave the EU if those policies were what I believe in. The EU is just a trading mechanism and an organisational tool for our economy.

[rocket_scientist]

You've swallowed too much spin. You're talking in the language of the politicians and the media. The vote to leave wasn't "irrelevant". It was the most relevant and decisive expression of democracy, one that hopefully can lead to wholesale change and the destruction of the corrupt globalist systems that ruin not just the lives of the vast majority but the planet that we all inhabit.

 

I'm not naive enough to think that revolution is possible. The people don't have enough knowledge nor fight within them. They sleepwalk into the future and the role of the media has been the biggest conduit of their ignorance. As I said, seeing truth is revolutionary. Acting upon it however needs courage and there's none of that kicking about.

[rocket_scientist]

When I say "ruin the lives of the vast majority", I include you and I. Just because "I'm all right Jack" and we run our own businesses and can live in nice houses, drive expensive cars and stay in nice places, buying whatever we want when we want it, think about the world our grandchildren will live in?

[RicoS321]

You've swallowed too much spin. You're talking in the language of the politicians and the media. The vote to leave wasn't "irrelevant".

 

No, I'm not. Not one media person is saying anything like I am saying. They are all parroting the shite about "respecting the will of the people" and all that bollocks. I'm saying that the function of our existing democracy - in that it is a representative democracy - means that the vote was irrelevant, because the internal workings of the EU is exactly the responsibility of our representative elected. That is the system in which we live. We need to find a way to remove ourselves from that system by using the mechanisms we have at our disposal. The vote to leave was irrelevant to that process, nor was it it's intension.

 

It was the most relevant and decisive expression of democracy, one that hopefully can lead to wholesale change and the destruction of the corrupt globalist systems that ruin not just the lives of the vast majority but the planet that we all inhabit.

 

I'm not naive enough to think that revolution is possible. The people don't have enough knowledge nor fight within them. They sleepwalk into the future and the role of the media has been the biggest conduit of their ignorance. As I said, seeing truth is revolutionary. Acting upon it however needs courage and there's none of that kicking about.

 

When I say "ruin the lives of the vast majority", I include you and I. Just because "I'm all right Jack" and we run our own businesses and can live in nice houses, drive expensive cars and stay in nice places, buying whatever we want when we want it, think about the world our grandchildren will live in?

 

I am 100% in total agreement with both your points above. Couldn't have put it better myself. There are no parties currently proposing anything to solve the issues you highlight, nothing that leaving the EU (nor remaining) will do to solve the issues that you highlight and no appetite for the revolution that you and I know is vital in order for them to be solved. Nothing was mentioned in the entire process of the Brexit referendum, no solutions put forward. I recognise that breaking institutions down to the lowest possible level (e.g. Scottish independence) gives the greatest opportunity for change, and I understand the globalist project that the EU is, but none of these elements (to change them) have been put forward as a reason for Brexit happening, nor is it what the majority of Brexiters voted for (take back control, immigrants etc). I'd have very much voted for your version of Brexit. I don't see that version as any more likely or viable with a "no deal" brexit or remaining in the EU, so I'd be happy to remain in until that vision is presented (the presentation of that vision is not predicated on being in/out of the EU).

[rocket_scientist]

I am 100% in total agreement with both your points above. Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

Now I'm confused. The first line of wot I wroted that you agreed with was "it was the most RELEVANT and decisive expression of democracy..." and yet the first part of your post said that the vote was IRRELEVANT (for reasons you gave that I don't understand).

 

 

No, I'm not. Not one media person is saying anything like I am saying.

 

What is it that you're saying? Cos I sure as hell don't know? And why use 23 words when 11 will do? Summarise it.

 

I'm not having a go at you here Rico, "I respect you an all" (Vincent to Jools) and I think we might be on the same page (rare use of italics there, see?) but we're seeing different texts.

 

This line however is pretty frightening: -

 

They are all parroting the shite about "respecting the will of the people" and all that bollocks.

 

It is a foundation of the democratic ideal - itself just a lie and a philosophical pretext since hijacked by the xxxx - that the people vote and that our will is carried out.

 

The referendum was very simple. Either leave the EU or stay in it.

 

Just because May is an incompetent evil witch with a party full of yes men arselickers (as it always attracts throughout history), unable to negotiate anything (because you need personality and charm to get to a win/win situation) and presenting a shambles of a "deal" that nobody wants (not even many of her hoop-tonguers) and nobody voted for, this doesn't mean that the people don't want out of the EU. If project fear works - as it probably will, again - then any second referendum is bound to go the way the Tories wanted it too all along! This misses the whole point. It is less government we need, not more and with an extra £50,000,000 a day, the UK can do a lot better on its own.

 

We love the people of Europe. We do business with them. We holiday amongst them. And vice versa. It's the unelected politicians we don't trust and the system they prop up, the ECB and the IMF being the most evil and corrupt of them all.

 

The biggest tragedy right now is the uncertainty facing the great people we have in this country who came from Europe and who have no idea what's going to happen to them in 2.5 months time. This alone is a symptom that caring about people doesn't exist in the list of priorities of the ruling elites, them only being interested in helping their public school friends and their Oxford associates.

 

Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish people are fucking idiots. She may or may not be using the Brexit ref strictly for political gain (but I suspect not unfortunately) but there's no denying that the Scots 1. voted against independence, 2. voted remain, and most embarrassingly for us, 3. returned TORY MP's in the North East.

 

It's a right shambles right enough. Fuck me, two grown men can't even communicate with one another effectively using the same language (both our faults, no doubt).

 

[RicoS321]

Now I'm confused. The first line of wot I wroted that you agreed with was "it was the most RELEVANT and decisive expression of democracy..." and yet the first part of your post said that the vote was IRRELEVANT (for reasons you gave that I don't understand).

 

 

What is it that you're saying? Cos I sure as hell don't know? And why use 23 words when 11 will do? Summarise it.

 

I'm not having a go at you here Rico, "I respect you an all" (Vincent to Jools) and I think we might be on the same page (rare use of italics there, see?) but we're seeing different texts.

 

This line however is pretty frightening: -

 

It is a foundation of the democratic ideal - itself just a lie and a philosophical pretext since hijacked by the xxxx - that the people vote and that our will is carried out.

 

The referendum was very simple. Either leave the EU or stay in it.

 

Just because May is an incompetent evil witch with a party full of yes men arselickers (as it always attracts throughout history), unable to negotiate anything (because you need personality and charm to get to a win/win situation) and presenting a shambles of a "deal" that nobody wants (not even many of her hoop-tonguers) and nobody voted for, this doesn't mean that the people don't want out of the EU. If project fear works - as it probably will, again - then any second referendum is bound to go the way the Tories wanted it too all along! This misses the whole point. It is less government we need, not more and with an extra £50,000,000 a day, the UK can do a lot better on its own.

 

We love the people of Europe. We do business with them. We holiday amongst them. And vice versa. It's the unelected politicians we don't trust and the system they prop up, the ECB and the IMF being the most evil and corrupt of them all.

 

The biggest tragedy right now is the uncertainty facing the great people we have in this country who came from Europe and who have no idea what's going to happen to them in 2.5 months time. This alone is a symptom that caring about people doesn't exist in the list of priorities of the ruling elites, them only being interested in helping their public school friends and their Oxford associates.

 

Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish people are fucking idiots. She may or may not be using the Brexit ref strictly for political gain (but I suspect not unfortunately) but there's no denying that the Scots 1. voted against independence, 2. voted remain, and most embarrassingly for us, 3. returned TORY MP's in the North East.

 

It's a right shambles right enough. Fuck me, two grown men can't even communicate with one another effectively using the same language (both our faults, no doubt).

 

Aye, I'm not explaining myself clearly enough, clearly! The EU referendum was irrelevant, and the "will of the people" is irrelevant because we live in a representative democracy. That means we deploy cunts (always cunts) to do the "how/where" for us. Our decisions are, and always have been (in the UK), limited to a series of policies and manifesto pledges that we believe fit our desired narrative (obviously, there's a shite load of obfuscation and wankery amongst that), because that is what representative democracy is. We have never, ever, adopted a system of direct democracy (see Switzerland) in the UK, our system is representative democracy. I can't say that enough. That is the entire point. The fact that the EU referendum wasn't backed up by the BBC (Ch4, ITV, every UK newspaper) explicitly making this point at every single turn is the biggest scandal that exists in UK politics - everything else is irrelevant. The Brexit vote was not representative democracy, simple as. That's an undeniable fact. We've gone against every single principal we've ever been bound to in our political system for the entire existence of the UK. Think about that. It's fucking ridiculous. The referendum was pushing direct democracy on a country that has subsisted entirely on representative democracy for its entire democratic history. That's fucking ludicrous. And nobody is saying it. Nobody. It's the equivalent of a patient needing heart surgery and the surgeon deciding that, instead of just operating, he was going to put the treatment out to a vote of random members of the public - vote A for Stents, B for a bypass, C for praying. He's the expert in surgeonery, but he's delegating that responsibility to some people who've read some shite on the internet. If I was a politician, I'd be fucking raging that some cunt thought they knew the constitutional arrangements required in how to implement my manifesto succesfully more than I did. 

 

I'd class myself as politically aware; more so than the vast majority of my friends and colleagues. I'm happy to admit I didn't know the answer to whether we'd better off out of the EU based on the proposed (or not proposed) deal(s). There were no targets, no benchmarks, no goals - it was fucking retardedness. I didn't vote, I couldn't, I couldn't justify it.

 

Where I agree with you is in your reasons for wanting to leave, your thoughts on globalisation. The exact reasons that I'd want to leave the EU. All the issues that were never raised in the referendum, nor appeared in the manifestos/reasoning of those entities pursuing a leave vote. Because there wasn't, and isn't, a plan for those things. Just a faint hope that these things might come to the fore outwith the EU. There is zero evidence to back that up of course (in fact, the UK's involvement in TTIP and so on would suggest entirely the opposite), just a hope. But you're right, the refrendum was simple "stay in the EU or leave it" - it was just completely, and deliberately, disconnected from the end goals and targets of doing so.

 

 

[rocket_scientist]

So your objection is that we were allowed to vote at all?

 

Because the cunts we voted to represent us know best?

 

Is that what you're saying and what you mean by "representative democracy"?

[RicoS321]

So your objection is that we were allowed to vote at all?

 

Because the cunts we voted to represent us know best?

 

Is that what you're saying and what you mean by "representative democracy"?

 

Yes, exactly. That's not what I mean by representative democracy, that's what it is. The cunts that we voted to represent us might not know best, but it most definitely is their job to. It was a massive dereliction of duty, and continues to be. That should be called out at every opportunity, and someone with integrity and balls should have the leadership to say it and deal with it. Cancel, and come back (the Tories) with a proper proposal that either unilaterally declares independence from the EU upon voting at the next GE because the manifesto commitments require it, or a two tiered manifesto that allows for EU and non-EU membership which could then be subject to a referendum. In other words: Do it fucking properly.

[Kowalski]

The question should never have been put to the public.  By and large the public are thick, gullible and not capable of researching to make up their own minds.  Many of them just believed what the Daily Mail/Gove/Johnson/Farage etc said....  even today Johnston is claiming he didn't use Turkey as a fear factor during the referendum, it's just lies plain and simple.  The Leave campaign was Project Fear led by some utterly horrible cunts.

[rocket_scientist]

The question should never have been put to the public.  By and large the public are thick, gullible and not capable of researching to make up their own minds.  Many of them just believed what the Daily Mail/Gove/Johnson/Farage etc said....  even today Johnston is claiming he didn't use Turkey as a fear factor during the referendum, it's just lies plain and simple.  The Leave campaign was Project Fear led by some utterly horrible cunts.

 

Oh dear. Another who trusts Theresa and Call me Dave and Tony Blair. Another who thinks he knows best.

 

What return does EVERY European nation get from the money we pay in? What added value do Barnier and Juncker and the thousands of unelected officials provide? Is £50,000,000 a day from the U.K. alone a good investment?

 

We voted to go in fifty years ago but we're not allowed to vote out?

 

You should do your own research and find out what role the unelected cunts have in the globalist hegemony project. Then speak to the people of Greece, Italy, Spain and France. Not the corrupt leaders but the people. The EU doesn't work for the people. It's an ideal and an experiment that has failed, having been hijacked by the worst reptilian specimens ever to have breathed the same air as the people of Europe.

[Tyrant]

The question should never have been put to the public.  By and large the public are thick, gullible and not capable of researching to make up their own minds.  Many of them just believed what the Daily Mail/Gove/Johnson/Farage etc said....  even today Johnston is claiming he didn't use Turkey as a fear factor during the referendum, it's just lies plain and simple.  The Leave campaign was Project Fear led by some utterly horrible cunts.

 

Do you not see that that's exactly how the No campaign was run in 2014 as well?

[RicoS321]

Do you not see that that's exactly how the No campaign was run in 2014 as well?

 

I don't think it was. The No campaign was run in a very similar fashion to the EU No campaign. I disagree with Kow, in that the EU leave campaign was not project fear, it was just project lie. There was nothing fearful about the £350M on the side of the bus for example, but it was a lie. Project fear was blatantly the Remain campaign. The problem is that they failed to take the referendum seriously enough (and they were clearly a bunch that couldn't be trusted) to hammer home some of the difficulties associated with Leaving. They tried their 2014 fear approach, but it simply didn't work because nobody really trusted a word they said after at least 20-30 years of treating the electorate with contempt. When you dumb down politics (and probably education) to the extent that we have in the UK this century then feed them a bunch of pandering, half-arsed shite (on top of a decade of austerity) then the result should be fairly inevitable.

[rocket_scientist]

There was nothing fearful about the £350M on the side of the bus for example, but it was a lie.

 

Are you saying that we don't pay £350m a week to the EU?