Brexit - Will it happen

[rocket_scientist]

I think it was Salmond who first used "once in a lifetime opportunity" (for independence) and when he fucked that up, his opponents jumped on this and the "once in a generation" phrase was born.

 

The political landscape may have changed but the people haven't. Scots are still stupid and feart of change. What also hasn't changed is that a successful campaign needs a clear vision and a convincing case to be made. There were so many unanswered questions last time - including the basics such as currency - that until the SNP spell out a bigger and better case, Indyref 2 would fail again (if held so soon).

[Kowalski]

Well I hate to disagree but if the Tories some how manage to force a hard Brexit or even a no deal down Scotland’s throats, there will be many more voting for independence.

[Kowalski]

Time to admit I was wrong, I said it would never happen, but it will now.  I'm not sure *everybody* who voted for BoJo last night realise that it will still drag on for a number of years yet.

 

I blame Labour, the Lib Dems and the so-called "Peoples Vote" cabal for playing their cards very poorly.

[rocket_scientist]

Even if Boris allowed Indyref 2, I'm still not confident of winning it. The results yesterday and an increased SNP share may well have been votes against Brexit more than pro-independence. Westminster are desperate to hold on to Scotland. There are reasons for this. Whatever the reasons that Scots think it's a good idea to be part of the union, they escape me but if Boris was to grant us the Indyref asap, I'm sure it would fail again. It's all shit.

[Tyrant]

Even if Boris allowed Indyref 2, I'm still not confident of winning it. The results yesterday and an increased SNP share may well have been votes against Brexit more than pro-independence. Westminster are desperate to hold on to Scotland. There are reasons for this. Whatever the reasons that Scots think it's a good idea to be part of the union, they escape me but if Boris was to grant us the Indyref asap, I'm sure it would fail again. It's all shit.

 

 

Agreed. Getting another Indyref will be the easy bit. Convincing over 50% to vote yes will be the hard bit. I don't think it'll happen anymore. Not soon anyway. Maybe Indyref 3, 4 or 5.

[rocket_scientist]

 

Agreed. Getting another Indyref will be the easy bit. Convincing over 50% to vote yes will be the hard bit. I don't think it'll happen anymore. Not soon anyway. Maybe Indyref 3, 4 or 5.

 

I disagree. A day is a long time in politics. The main reason why I reckon 72% of Scotland would vote for independence now was what happened last night. The fucking BBC took the Sports Personality of the Year programme to our country, to our town and handed the main prize to a fucking cricketer. Plus they had a big Welsh weirdo cycling up the country to deliver it to him. Sickening behaviour and quintessentially English. Funny when she said the horse lassie was dressed in a jihad and the Doddie Weir tribute was quite moving even though rugger buggers give me the creeps. His wife was quite nice though. Brexit is happening now and independence isn't. Everything Nicola didn't want. Her lack of dignity was noted when celebrating too vehemently at another's demise. She speaks about being in touch with the people. She's not. She's a fucking idiot who married a man who looks like a fucking nothing. It's still all shit.

[Garlogie_Granite]

Her lack of dignity was noted when celebrating too vehemently at another's demise. She speaks about being in touch with the people. She's not.

1. She was celebrating Amy Callaghan's amazing win, on the back of fighting off cancer, she fought off a UK party leader.

2. I met her couple weekends back when she toured the local constituencies, room of 50 people, spoke to every single one individually. A quite amazing presence she has. Probably beyond your wit though?

[rocket_scientist]

There's more proof of her incapacity. Why would a potential national leader waste time on deadbeats like you? If she, and Salmond weren't oddball losers, we might have had a chance at independence.

[Ten Caat]

Interesting "plan B" put forward by Angus Brendan MacNeil....MP for the Ooter Hebrides. In the event Bojo refuses a second referendum, all 48 SNP MP's to resign and force 48 by-elections standing on a (if I have picked it up correctly) ticket of abandoning a second referendum and just declaring independence should a majority in Scotland overall (min 30) be re-elected.

 

I suppose it would indeed show how many SNP voters are truly voting for independence as opposed to using their vote as just a rejection of the Tories (or Labour and Lib Dems). And I suspect would have a greater chance of success rather than an indyref 2 right now, which I still maintain would result in another No victory at this point in time.

 

Personally, if I were formulating SNP policy now, I'd be creating laws and initiatives specifically designed to totally piss off England (ie massive public spending on shit that they don't/won't get) and hopefully encourage their more nationalistic citizens to start to think about the benefits of English independence. Because right now I just think that independence by default is probably our best chance.

[Tyrant]

Interesting "plan B" put forward by Angus Brendan MacNeil....MP for the Ooter Hebrides. In the event Bojo refuses a second referendum, all 48 SNP MP's to resign and force 48 by-elections standing on a (if I have picked it up correctly) ticket of abandoning a second referendum and just declaring independence should a majority in Scotland overall (min 30) be re-elected.

 

I suppose it would indeed show how many SNP voters are truly voting for independence as opposed to using their vote as just a rejection of the Tories (or Labour and Lib Dems). And I suspect would have a greater chance of success rather than an indyref 2 right now, which I still maintain would result in another No victory at this point in time.

 

Personally, if I were formulating SNP policy now, I'd be creating laws and initiatives specifically designed to totally piss off England (ie massive public spending on shit that they don't/won't get) and hopefully encourage their more nationalistic citizens to start to think about the benefits of English independence. Because right now I just think that independence by default is probably our best chance.

 

 

Wouldn't that entail finding 48 (Or 49 once Neale Hanvey gets let back in) other SNP candidates to stand? I assume you can't resign and then stand in the by election that you've facilitated by resigning? Maybe you can.

 

Massive gamble, that. It would be the last throw of the dice. In the likely event that it would fail it should be the end of the SNP. I've wanted a promise from them to disband in the event of a Yes vote but if they do that and fail we'll need new pro indy parties to take us forward even before we're independent.

[rocket_scientist]

Interesting "plan B" put forward by Angus Brendan MacNeil....MP for the Ooter Hebrides. In the event Bojo refuses a second referendum, all 48 SNP MP's to resign and force 48 by-elections standing on a (if I have picked it up correctly) ticket of abandoning a second referendum and just declaring independence should a majority in Scotland overall (min 30) be re-elected.

 

Not only would that be undemocratic, it's just plain stupid.

 

THERE IS NO STOMACH FOR INDEPENDENCE RIGHT NOW.

 

It's up to somebody, anybody, to put forward a coherent and workable case. Salmond didn't do that. Sturgeon has never done it. It's not fucking difficult. We CAN be successful as an independent country. It just needs to be "sold" properly and if Nicola was half as intelligent as she needs to be - to drive through a case that the majority of Scots can vote for - then she needs to do the due diligence, which includes talking to and negotiating with the EU before presenting the facts that the people can believe in.

 

Of course there are prejudiced old bigots like me (Fuck Westminster and England) who would vote Yes every time but I'm the minority and as evidenced by Question Time last week, there are still people out there who think England are subsidising us!!! Which begs the question well why are they so desperate to keep us and why will Boris say no to Indyref 2? Cameron was almost in tears selling us the better together shite.

 

DO YOUR FUCKING JOB SNP. Put the numbers together and put forward a good case.

 

It's out there. Nippie sweetie Sturgeon hasn't done it. She's too bitter and as an oddball, she doesn't understand that Scots will NOT vote for it right now. It's almost like she's believing her own hype and has totally skewed her own agenda by wrongfully holding her hat on the Brexit divisions between Scotland and England. It's all shite. We Scots can't run a piss-up in a brewery when we have incompetent politicians in charge.

[RicoS321]

There's more proof of her incapacity. Why would a potential national leader waste time on deadbeats like you? If she, and Salmond weren't oddball losers, we might have had a chance at independence.

 

The biggest problem with both for me was that they made/make very obvious errors. The obvious one for Salmond was the currency issue. I was happy enough with the fact that he addressed it clearly, it's just that he chose the wrong option. It was always going to be a Scottish currency. Always. No point in an independent Scotland without it.

 

Sturgeon's biggest issue is party control, which makes her look competent compared to others on the wanky debates, but there is little substance behind her headlines. Always has been. Backed up by the SNP's weak performance on education, hospitals, fake-PFI and so forth.

 

Both competent politicians of course, but that's not what we need to gain independence in my mind. Unless a few actual thinkers join the board of the next referendum then we'll be left with another campaign that centres around candidate rather than the goal and I think that will be Sturgeon's downfall.

 

Garlogie, it's fairly easy for a party leader to visit their supporters; they'll get very little worthwhile feedback there. Her "presence" wouldn't be felt by someone who wasn't pre-loaded with deference (not a criticism of you). I don't think the SNPs performance in government has been good enough and I think that will be equated with independence when the time again comes. I think we can do much better.

[rocket_scientist]

Joanna Cherry is who we need, not weirdo Sturgeon. Someone intelligent, credible and who has actual experience of the real world.

[minijc]

It's quite fitting that a cricketer won award when it's up here in Aberdeen as more people, per capita play cricket up here than anywhere else in the UK.

[rocket_scientist]

It's quite fitting that a cricketer won award when it's up here in Aberdeen as more people, per capita play cricket up here than anywhere else in the UK.

 

More per capita voted Tory too. That also does make them bad people. Cricket (and Rugby) should be outlawed in the independent republic of Aberdonia.

[minijc]

More per capita voted Tory too. That also does make them bad people. Cricket (and Rugby) should be outlawed in the independent republic of Aberdonia.

Cricket stays I'm sorry, had a great time a few years ago playing a match at Balmoral Castle.

[rocket_scientist]

Cricket stays I'm sorry, had a great time a few years ago playing a match at Balmoral Castle.

 

You won't get a choice I'm afraid. Democracy is selective. We need to educate our people properly and toadying is most definitely out of bounds. This includes respect for the English institutions and practises so Balmoral will be forcibly taken and sold to the highest bidder (Aberdonia passport holder only obviously), the proceeds going to the republic.

 

All our loons will be forced to play fitba and golf until such time it becomes apparent they're shite at it.

[minijc]

You won't get a choice I'm afraid. Democracy is selective. We need to educate our people properly and toadying is most definitely out of bounds. This includes respect for the English institutions and practises so Balmoral will be forcibly taken and sold to the highest bidder (Aberdonia passport holder only obviously), the proceeds going to the republic.

 

All our loons will be forced to play fitba and golf until such time it becomes apparent they're shite at it.

I can get onboard with this actually, if I ever had a kid it would be pushed towards golf, so much money to be made if you've got what it takes and a great chance to see the world.

[Garlogie_Granite]

There's more proof of her incapacity. Why would a potential national leader waste time on deadbeats like you? If she, and Salmond weren't oddball losers, we might have had a chance at independence.

Well because deadbeats like me got off our fat arses, and hit the streets to drum up voters, whereas fat arses like you spend your time spikkin shite in places like this, then criticise those who've made an effort, and made a difference.

 

That's the difference between you and me, I'm a do-er, you're just dour. 

[rocket_scientist]

Well because deadbeats like me got off our fat arses, and hit the streets to drum up voters, whereas fat arses like you spend your time spikkin shite in places like this, then criticise those who've made an effort, and made a difference.

 

That's the difference between you and me, I'm a do-er, you're just dour. 

 

The differences between me and the likes of you - other than you being fat and me not - isn't even measurable, being on different planets.

 

Not one SNP canvasser hit the area I live in. Not one leaflet through the door either. All of us in the village were astounded by that. The Tories hit us multiple times and so I blame YOU and your lazy fat-arsed mates. Your flawed strategy allowed Bowie to win again. That plus you do half a days shift and think it's time to go to the pub. It's because low quality humans like you representing the SNP that we lost. Did you tell them on the doorsteps that your wife likes to pretend she's so fista cayted?

[Tyrant]

The fact that some folk need leaflets through their door before they know who to vote for is a disgrace.

[rocket_scientist]

The fact that some folk need leaflets through their door before they know who to vote for is a disgrace.

 

It is but there are many undecideds who get influenced by the campaigns and who focus on style rather than substance. Blair and Boris succeeded because the complicit media have made it all about personality politics. In Blair's case, the country took the right decision (at the time) but he took "New Labour" down an old establishment path. Boris's landslide was made possible by the consistent demonisation of Corbyn (since day one, simply because he was a threat to the deep state) and Brexit. Corbyn fucked up catastrophically and couldn't make a decision so the thick racists in middle England thought lending the Tories their vote was the clever thing to do this time.

 

I don't think there were many who could've predicted such a resounding Boris win. The Tories certainly didn't anticipate that the UK would vote Leave in 2016. It's all shite.

[rocket_scientist]

Malcolm X warned us fifty years ago: -

 

"This is the media, an irresponsible media. It will make the criminal look like he's the victim and make the victim look like he's the criminal. If you aren't careful, the media will have you hating the people who are oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. This is the sort of propaganda tactic that I would call psychological warfare".

[RicoS321]

Malcolm X warned us fifty years ago: -

 

"This is the media, an irresponsible media. It will make the criminal look like he's the victim and make the victim look like he's the criminal. If you aren't careful, the media will have you hating the people who are oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. This is the sort of propaganda tactic that I would call psychological warfare".

 

Thon's a good quote. People like me have the tendency to assume that this generation is the first to experience this level of media interference, but it's nae. The interference is the same, with the same results, but the delivery vehicle of social media is just different. Same as it ever was.

[rocket_scientist]

The media being owned by only 5 or 6 complicit establishment people is one problem but I wonder how ALL their employees manage to toe the party line? Surely there would be ONE journalist of integrity who would want to reveal the truth? The Sky and BBC anchors and hacks turn my stomach.

 

I also wonder how Zuckerberg got turned? Did federal agents visit him at night and deliver the agenda that he must follow? I'm pretty sure that when he was at Harvard and stealing the idea for Facebook, he didn't have social oppression and disinformation as his priorities. The likes of Cambridge Analytica got caught (by Channel 4) but the likes of them still operate in the background and are used and abused by the likes of Cummings. Seedy and corrupt and all shite.