The Golf Thread

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

Yup. In particular it was poor that the Open went to pay TV. It’ll disappear into obscurity like F1 and cricket.

 

I agree that it's disappointing when these big events end up on pay TV, sadly money talks.  I remember when the Scottish fitba moved from the BBC to Setanta and I think it was the worst mistake they made.  On the face of it, it looks like our game may be slowly on the up but loss of interest in the game with it being on an obscure channel IMO set us back years.

 

Has to be said though on the golf that the Sky coverage is light years ahead of where the BBC were with it.

 

 

 

[rocket_scientist]

I think in today's media driven world it is much more important than in the past Rocket.

 

Sportsmen that are willing to give the press their time and can come across as likeable/approachable generally get a better ride from the media.  Andy Murray has gradually learnt this after a tough start and it seems like on the whole most people now back him and want him to be successful. 

 

Others who go out of their way to be particularly arrogant and non-compliant with the press are the first ones that the press stick the knife into when things go wrong.  The press have so much influence over how people are perceived by the public that it can make life very difficult if sportsmen don't have them on their side.

 

I think we are in danger of confusing the debate.

 

This man said it best -  That's been one of my mantras - focus and simplicity. Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it's worth it in the end because once you get there, you can move mountains. Steve Jobs

 

Media and press attention etc. and how the golfer is perceived is one thing. How they perform is another.

 

Public opinion matters to those who want to be liked but it doesn't to those with different priorities.

 

I'm just watching David Drysdale just now. He has had next to NO press attention over the years. It's like you're talking from the perspective of a management company (where public perception can help with sponsorship opportunities) and I'm coming at it as a performance coach.

 

We were discussing Sandy Lyle, probably the best Scottish golfer in our lifetimes. In fact, there is no question about it, he is. I can assure you that his failure to be selected as a Ryder Cup captain had nothing to do with media portrayals and public perception and everything to do with him as a person. He is basically a shy man who doesn't have the leadership skills that the role requires and therefore how good a golfer he was is of no consequence.

 

Having said that, I think Thomas Bjorn is a big mistake for that role but really, who else was available? Bjorn is at least popular amongst his peers and yet comes over as drole and one-dimensional in front of the cameras. Like a Scandinavian in fact, if we are allowed a generalism.

 

 

[rocket_scientist]

I agree that it's disappointing when these big events end up on pay TV, sadly money talks.  I remember when the Scottish fitba moved from the BBC to Setanta and I think it was the worst mistake they made.  On the face of it, it looks like our game may be slowly on the up but loss of interest in the game with it being on an obscure channel IMO set us back years.

 

Has to be said though on the golf that the Sky coverage is light years ahead of where the BBC were with it.

 

Mixed messages here.

 

It is a disaster for golf in the UK that the BBC have been trumped by Sky. This is the biggest mistake of judgement the R & A have ever made so whether the presentation is better, light years better, the same or worse is unimportant. It is the limited exposure and the vastly-reduced TV audience numbers that will accelerate the already declining - and in my opinion, terminal - trend.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

I think we are in danger of confusing the debate.

 

This man said it best -  That's been one of my mantras - focus and simplicity. Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it's worth it in the end because once you get there, you can move mountains. Steve Jobs

 

Media and press attention etc. and how the golfer is perceived is one thing. How they perform is another.

 

Public opinion matters to those who want to be liked but it doesn't to those with different priorities.

I'm just watching David Drysdale just now. He has had next to NO press attention over the years. It's like you're talking from the perspective of a management company (where public perception can help with sponsorship opportunities) and I'm coming at it as a performance coach.

 

We were discussing Sandy Lyle, probably the best Scottish golfer in our lifetimes. In fact, there is no question about it, he is. I can assure you that his failure to be selected as a Ryder Cup captain had nothing to do with media portrayals and public perception and everything to do with him as a person. He is basically a shy man who doesn't have the leadership skills that the role requires and therefore how good a golfer he was is of no consequence.

 

Having said that, I think Thomas Bjorn is a big mistake for that role but really, who else was available? Bjorn is at least popular amongst his peers and yet comes over as drole and one-dimensional in front of the cameras. Like a Scandinavian in fact, if we are allowed a generalism.

 

Of course, as a sportsman you would always wish to be the guy holding the trophy instead of just being the fans favorite.  However in this day and age I think that being popular with the press and public can often have a big impact on success or lack of it.

 

Where these modern players in golf, fitba, tennis, whatever, are constantly in press conferences, doing interviews and involved in the social media world I reckon being hated does no one any good whatsoever and especially during the bad times.  Popularity with the press buys you a little more time before the vultures turn on you during a bad spell and having the crowd on your side can often make a massive difference to the outcome. 

 

Back on Sandy Lyle, I honestly think he was just a little unlucky at missing out on Ryder Cup captaincy because there were so many candidates of about the same age.  By the time Faldo, Woosie, Langer, Seve, Olazabal, Monty and Torrance had a go Sandy was just a bit too detached from the main tour by then to figure.  One of those was likely to miss out and he was the unlucky one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

Mixed messages here.

 

It is a disaster for golf in the UK that the BBC have been trumped by Sky. This is the biggest mistake of judgement the R & A have ever made so whether the presentation is better, light years better, the same or worse is unimportant. It is the limited exposure and the vastly-reduced TV audience numbers that will accelerate the already declining - and in my opinion, terminal - trend.

 

No mixed message - shame the Open is now on Sky but if you are willing to pay for it the coverage is great.

 

The game has been on it's knees for the last few years, it will pick up again.  Losing one week's golf in the year to Sky will not be the end.

[rocket_scientist]

The game has been on it's knees for the last few years, it will pick up again.

 

What do you mean by this and what's going to change for it to "pick up again"?

 

 

Losing one week's golf in the year to Sky will not be the end.

 

The Open on BBC inspired many great champions. It's not just "one week". It's the pinnacle of the game.

[LA-Don]

You're correct in that Sandy was perceived - or wrongly misinterpreted to be strictly accurate - as lacking in depth of personality but that of itself is one of the biggest problems in the Scottish psyche.

 

Some humans respect achievement more than "likeability". Most of us who work in results-based fields don't put a great deal of value in their interpersonal skills when, to be frank in an individual sport and pursuit, it's totally unimportant.

 

Bob Torrance nailed his own son perfectly. He was always more interested in the fame rather than working hard to get success. A lazy underachieving arsehole in other words.

 

I think this brings us back to Tiger. Never liked the guy, always thought he was a cunt, always wanted him to lose, much like my feelings towards England and the old firm. All came down to disliking him, no other reason than I though he was a prick. Super player though. Same with Steve Davis and Nick Faldo, but in later years I’ve totally flipped on them and like them both. Much like Andy Murray, both put the effort in to be more likeable and saw the value in that. I’d say I’m a typical fan who values likeability, it is ‘entertainment’ after all and most people like the guys they want to win. Funnily, my tennis childhood hero was MacEnroe, another cunt!

[rocket_scientist]

I think this brings us back to Tiger. Never liked the guy, always thought he was a cunt, always wanted him to lose, much like my feelings towards England and the old firm. All came down to disliking him, no other reason than I though he was a prick. Super player though. Same with Steve Davis and Nick Faldo, but in later years I’ve totally flipped on them and like them both. Much like Andy Murray, both put the effort in to be more likeable and saw the value in that. I’d say I’m a typical fan who values likeability, it is ‘entertainment’ after all and most people like the guys they want to win. Funnily, my tennis childhood hero was MacEnroe, another cunt!

 

Well that's one view I guess. I never wanted anyone to win or lose at golf. I reckoned the golfing gods would determine the winner and I was happy just to watch the drama unfold.

 

As a teenager, I loved McEnroe and I wanted him to win too but as you said, it had nothing to do with "likeability". I don't agree that he was a cunt though. He was passionate and determined, qualities I could relate to. Seve was a total cunt who despised women but that didn't matter to my appreciating his art.

 

The true champion is dedicated to his craft. The PR and media stuff is just shite.

[LA-Don]

My opinion is basically that of a kid, Davis Lyle Faldo MacEnroe etc were all athletes I knew of in my childhood. Although as an adult I thought Woods was a prick and I’ve seen enough of MacEnroe over here that he’s a bit of a tool too. As kids I think we go by likeability, as adults some of us form opinions based on personality, likeability, ability, respect etc.

 

Wanting people to lose is a trait most Scots have I think, wanting England to lose, the old firm etc. we’re a miserable lot really. I’d relate it to wanting the underdog to win, so you do want the favorites, in turn, to lose.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

What do you mean by this and what's going to change for it to "pick up again"?

 

 

The Open on BBC inspired many great champions. It's not just "one week". It's the pinnacle of the game.

 

Golf club member numbers have been plummeting for years now and it's mainly due to the time a round takes not because Sky have the TV rights.

 

There are a lot of new ideas being tried to get more people playing the game again, shorter formats, rule simplification etc and in time it will help interest in the game to pick up again.

 

The Open is the pinnacle of the game, yes, but it is basically the only golf that the BBC has had left since losing the Masters properly to Sky three or four years ago. So what I mean is that if there was only one week's golf on mainstream tele anyway then losing it is not the be all and end all.

 

Let's face it. There is no fitba on TV unless you pay for it but the game is not dying because of it. If you want to watch it you will pay for it otherwise you will be a miserable bastard and moan about it.

[rocket_scientist]

Golf club member numbers have been plummeting for years now and it's mainly due to the time a round takes not because Sky have the TV rights.

 

There are a lot of new ideas being tried to get more people playing the game again and in time it will pick up again.

 

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. But you're missing the biggest reason for the declining levels of golf participation in the UK, unlike other parts of Europe where golf is growing, in Italy quite dramatically (a fifteen fold increase in golf courses in and around Rome in the last 25 years) and will explode again now that Molinari won the Open.

 

Golf has always taken time to play 18 holes. The length of time it takes was mooted as an excuse by some when the horse had bolted, when the authorities finally got round to surveying former members, 30 years after they had ignored the evidence in front of their faces. In fact, even this decade they lied about participation levels, saying that membership had gone down but the number of rounds being played was stable due to the shifting patterns and there being (what they called) "nomadic golfers".

 

These six hole and nine hole initiatives have yet to take hold and in my opinion will not make a blind bit of difference whilst the governing bodies continue to delude themselves and deny the real core issue that is killing golf.

 

 

The Open is the pinnacle of the game, yes, but it is basically the only golf that the BBC has had left since losing the Masters three or four years ago. So what I mean is that if there was only one week's golf on mainstream tele anyway then losing it is not the be all and end all.

 

Let's face it. There is no fitba on TV unless you pay for it but folk pay for it if they want to see it.

 

Football is suffering the exact same core issue and what coverage there is or isn't on telly today can't affect the damage that has already been done. It's too late. The mismanagement has been gross. Without grass roots, without kids participation levels being robust, there is no future.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

It's interesting you mention grass roots Rocket, not sure if you meant just the fitba or golf as well, doesn't matter but...

 

the Clubgolf thing has been very successful in some golf clubs at encouraging more youngsters to take up the game and to help increase numbers of junior members.

 

Golfs "problem" area for me is the lack of golfers in the 20-50 year old age bracket and it's those in that area with young families and work commitments where the time that  it takes to get round the course puts folk off playing.  I know many folk that played a lot of golf as juniors but just don't have the time once kids come on the go to spent four hours plus on the golf course each weekend.

 

Yes, it's always taken the same of length of time to play a round but younger people simply have more time pressures that they had in years gone by.

 

If you look at the number of folk playing golf regularly most of them are 50+.  It's becoming an old man's game, maybe that's how it will be going forward, a game that you pick up later in life.

 

Also don't underestimate the Tiger effect.  His time out of the game has had a MASSIVE effect on the viewing figures for TV golf and probably therefore had a knock on effect on participation levels.  Hopefully folk might start taking an interest again now he is back.

[RicoS321]

The problem for me growing up was the pretentious golf wanks that riddled the local club. Cunts that took themselves too seriously and looked down upon you for having 4 clubs and a shite bag. Golf seemed to surround itself with complete and utter dicks. It wasn't until I was older that I realised that actually most folks were alright and that the wanks were in the minority and could be easily ignored for the insecure thick fucks that they were. That said, it wasn't too many years ago that a golf wank asked me why I wasn't wearing a collar, at Portlethen* golf course. That pathetic dress-code shite is disgusting and absolutely put me off as a child. Posh-minks invoking snobbery cause it's the only opportunity they get. I was able to walk away with a smile because he was such a pathetic little cunt (and he had his kid with him).

 

*Portlethen, about £30 odd quid for a round, completely empty and devoid of any charm whatsoever. Long, flat, with little or no redeeming features. Ugly as sin, characterless, shite. I suppose the clue was in the location, but there you go.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

The problem for me growing up was the pretentious golf wanks that riddled the local club. Cunts that took themselves too seriously and looked down upon you for having 4 clubs and a shite bag. Golf seemed to surround itself with complete and utter dicks. It wasn't until I was older that I realised that actually most folks were alright and that the wanks were in the minority and could be easily ignored for the insecure thick fucks that they were. That said, it wasn't too many years ago that a golf wank asked me why I wasn't wearing a collar, at Portlethen* golf course. That pathetic dress-code shite is disgusting and absolutely put me off as a child. Posh-minks invoking snobbery cause it's the only opportunity they get. I was able to walk away with a smile because he was such a pathetic little cunt (and he had his kid with him).

 

*Portlethen, about £30 odd quid for a round, completely empty and devoid of any charm whatsoever. Long, flat, with little or no redeeming features. Ugly as sin, characterless, shite. I suppose the clue was in the location, but there you go.

 

I think some clubs are slowly starting to realise that the dress code shite is ridiculous and are beginning to relax it a wee bit just like the no women rules.  Guys like Ricky Fowler wearing his "high tops" appeal to the youngsters as well which helps.

 

 

[tamzarian]

That said, it wasn't too many years ago that a golf wank asked me why I wasn't wearing a collar, at Portlethen* golf course.

 

TBF I was seething the other day when I spotted some c*nt wearing a Liverpool shirt on the course.  Mind you, it's Norway, there's some c*nt in a Liverpool shirt pretty much everywhere. 

 

One-off rounds in places like Porty can be a rip-aff, but if you're playing regularly, it can be great value in the north east - 250 quid to join Huntly as a new member.  I suppose the beauty of golf in Scotland, the sheer quantity of courses, can be a weakness in tough times.  Every wee village has a club, sometimes in places so wee that it's the only licenced premises.  It's a real shame if they end up shutting down.   

[Elgindon]

The problem for me growing up was the pretentious golf wanks that riddled the local club. Cunts that took themselves too seriously and looked down upon you for having 4 clubs and a shite bag. Golf seemed to surround itself with complete and utter dicks. It wasn't until I was older that I realised that actually most folks were alright and that the wanks were in the minority and could be easily ignored for the insecure thick fucks that they were. That said, it wasn't too many years ago that a golf wank asked me why I wasn't wearing a collar, at Portlethen* golf course. That pathetic dress-code shite is disgusting and absolutely put me off as a child. Posh-minks invoking snobbery cause it's the only opportunity they get. I was able to walk away with a smile because he was such a pathetic little cunt (and he had his kid with him).

 

*Portlethen, about £30 odd quid for a round, completely empty and devoid of any charm whatsoever. Long, flat, with little or no redeeming features. Ugly as sin, characterless, shite. I suppose the clue was in the location, but there you go.

 

Agree re Portlethen,a tidy but drab course.Try Stoney after 5pm thru the week = £15 a round. Auchenblae's a pleasant amble if you cant be arsed with a full round(a wee bit rawch,but nice spot).

  Anyone up on the Moray coast that hasnt got time for a full round may not be aware of a tidy wee 9 holer called Covesea, between Lossie and Hopeman,right on the coast

[rocket_scientist]

the Clubgolf thing has been very successful in some golf clubs at encouraging more youngsters to take up the game and to help increase numbers of junior members.

 

That's factually incorrect. ClubGolf was a disaster and the money spent on it compared to the impact it had was shocking. Even ScottishGolf, formerly the Scottish Golf Union admit this now.

 

Where are you getting your information and what gives you the confidence to post like you know anything at all about the subject?

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

If you had read what I wrote you would have noticed that I said that it was very successful in "some" clubs, which it has been.

 

I am not saying it has been a roaring success compared to what has been invested.

 

Have a read of the attached, it's not all doom and gloom.

 

https://www.scottishgolf.org/clubgolf-success-continues-across-highlands-islands/

 

I would be surprised if anyone at the SGU has said it has been a disaster.

 

 

[rocket_scientist]

If you had read what I wrote you would have noticed that I said that it was very successful in "some" clubs, which it has been.

 

I am not saying it has been a roaring success compared to what has been invested.

 

Have a read of the attached, it's not all doom and gloom.

 

https://www.scottishgolf.org/clubgolf-success-continues-across-highlands-islands/

 

I would be surprised if anyone at the SGU has said it has been a disaster.

 

The word "disaster" was mine. That is was a failure is a fact, one acknowledged by the governing body, particularly as the CEO who implemented it is now long gone. That article was published by the implementing party. You know how politics work, right?

 

Participation levels by schoolchildren is now at critcally low levels. The only clubs that have robust junior memberships - and they are very few in Scotland - have so because of the enthusiasm and dedication of local volunteers, often including parents. Plastic oversized clubs in primary school hands for less than half an hour was a box ticking exercise, it cost us (not just golf members but tax-payers too) seven figures and it failed to attract business.

[rocket_scientist]

The problem for me growing up was the pretentious golf wanks that riddled the local club. Cunts that took themselves too seriously and looked down upon you for having 4 clubs and a shite bag. Golf seemed to surround itself with complete and utter dicks. It wasn't until I was older that I realised that actually most folks were alright and that the wanks were in the minority and could be easily ignored for the insecure thick fucks that they were. That said, it wasn't too many years ago that a golf wank asked me why I wasn't wearing a collar, at Portlethen* golf course. That pathetic dress-code shite is disgusting and absolutely put me off as a child. Posh-minks invoking snobbery cause it's the only opportunity they get. I was able to walk away with a smile because he was such a pathetic little cunt (and he had his kid with him).

 

*Portlethen, about £30 odd quid for a round, completely empty and devoid of any charm whatsoever. Long, flat, with little or no redeeming features. Ugly as sin, characterless, shite. I suppose the clue was in the location, but there you go.

 

This is particularly relevant. In the 70's when I grew up, kids were actively discouraged by these small men in big committees. There was pressure on use of the course back then because kids wanted to play at the same times as the adults so on Saturdays we had to wait until mid to late afternoon to get on to Hazlehead. Some of the more enterprising of us got out of our beds at 4 am to queue for a time for the mannies when the box opened, for which we got a fiver, an absolute fortune back then.

 

Even the fact that many more kids were playing golf in the 70's and 80's and that they were seen as a nuisance by the golf wanks doesn't touch the problem. Kids will always find a way to scratch their itches.

 

The biggest influencing factor on less kids participating in golf and football has been sedentary lifestyles and the introduction of computer games, the internet and smartphones.

[Garlogie_Granite]

Mixed messages here.

 

It is a disaster for golf in the UK that the BBC have been trumped by Sky. This is the biggest mistake of judgement the R & A have ever made so whether the presentation is better, light years better, the same or worse is unimportant. It is the limited exposure and the vastly-reduced TV audience numbers that will accelerate the already declining - and in my opinion, terminal - trend.

Absolutely totally and utterly agree. Blinkered clueless thinking from the R&A. "Oh we've got £10m, think what we can do with that" they parroted.

 

Well unless it's to provide free golf for kids, fuck all mate.

[RicoS321]

The biggest influencing factor on less kids participating in golf and football has been sedentary lifestyles and the introduction of computer games, the internet and smartphones.

 

I'm not convinced by the computer games thing. I had a computer when I was a kid and used it heaps. Kids before me watched TV a lot. I spent a lot of time indoors. However, I also had free access to lots of outdoor space to hit a golf ball or play fitba. Space which I could walk or cycle to without being run over (actually, I did get hit by a car on my bike once, but that was an isolated incident probably). There was a definite safety in numbers aspect too, to ward off the molesters (actually, I did get moles...). I think the problem these days is development. Green space is removed and housing developments are completely unplanned with housing profit the only required outcome. Any green space that does is exist is now usually in the form of a plastic pitch that is either pay-to-access or by appointment as it were. Derelict green space is usually behind housing away from the visibility and (perceived) safety. Football has now moved into a highly organised activity with paid-for coaching and often difficult-to-get spaces for all kids. Housing estates are thin roads with cars parked either side, so unless you or yer mates have a big garden that the parents don't mind you using, then the audi owners (I have one) will be out in force to ensure that you don't hit their precious metal box. All spontenaity is gone. Parents have to take their kids to play, and if the parents can't be arsed the kids can conveniantly be placed in front of a computer (I think the rise in computer use has as much to do with ease for parents as it has with addiction in kids). Kids don't just turn up at their mates houses, they go on fucking "play-dates". Phones are definitely an issue, and I suspect it promotes a poor attention span, but it's clearly as much of an issue in parents as it is children (not that you were saying otherwise). I'm happy to admit that I could be speaking shite, but planning and design of our living communities is the actual issue in my opinion. Computers are just a fallback.

[Garlogie_Granite]

Also don't underestimate the Tiger effect.  His time out of the game has had a MASSIVE effect on the viewing figures for TV golf and probably therefore had a knock on effect on participation levels.  Hopefully folk might start taking an interest again now he is back.

Rubbish. Only in America.

[Garlogie_Granite]

Agree re Portlethen,a tidy but drab course.

Portlethen is lucky we have Westhill GC to stop it claiming the crown of worst golf course in the north east. 

[Garlogie_Granite]

No mixed message - shame the Open is now on Sky but if you are willing to pay for it the coverage is great.

 

The game has been on it's knees for the last few years, it will pick up again.  Losing one week's golf in the year to Sky will not be the end.

Nope, you're missing the point.

 

Kids ape what they see. Wimbledon is on, suddenly you see kids out in the street with tennis rackets.

 

Golf used to have half a dozen ordinary tournaments, plus the 4 majors on BBC, and in the 80s the game boomed because of it, driven by the success of Lyle, Faldo, Woosie and the Ryder Cup teams.

 

The timeline of decline coincides nicely with tournaments going to Sky, it's been great for the pros, especially in America, but for participation it's been horrific.

 

Companies spend billions on marketing because it works, by accepting the short term Sky $$$, the R&A abdicated responsibility for the wellbeing of the game, probably because they are a bunch of old duffers with no idea about media presence and advertising.