Fire in London

[RicoS321]

Fucking horrendous like. Dispensable people, whose repeated concerns surrounding fire safety were ignored. Be interesting to see if the flat gets re-built, or will they take the opportunity to move poor people out of the area? How can it happen in London in the 21st century?

[Nellie The Don]

At first i really felt worried it was a new Terror attack.

 

Would that have made it worse?

[manc_don]

Heads should roll for this. Fucking unacceptable that something like this can happen in the 21st century. Sounds like the "refurb" made everything worse. Tory cunts. They deserve all manners of ill will.

[RicoS321]

Would that have made it worse?

 

Correct. It isn't worse. This is much worse than a terrorist attack. It's so easy for the government to go through the macho "end human rights" bullshit routine every time some muslim decides to murder some folks because they've got their scapegoat. Yet the one area that they can simply regulate, produce laws for, they are ideologically opposed to doing. Because of money. The worst thing about it that most Tory voters (especially those in NE) don't realise that that's what they are voting for. It's a choice whether you give a shite or not.

[baggy89]

Quote off the BBC about 'local containment' of fires in buildings like this. "One method is sprinkler system, but that's expensive".

 

Fuck sake there's likely going to be around a hundred folk dead.

 

In a block of 120 flats. How much money are the landlords making on that?

 

I think I'd actually go as far as suggesting possible death penalty for those responsible for the race to the bottom cost cutting profit maximising slum landlords?

 

There has quite obviously been cheep flammable cladding used and that's what's spread the fire so quickly. You can see stuff dropping off the outside and flames falling.

[RicoS321]

In a block of 120 flats. How much money are the landlords making on that?

 

I think I'd actually go as far as suggesting possible death penalty for those responsible for the race to the bottom cost cutting profit maximising slum landlords?

 

There has quite obviously been cheep flammable cladding used and that's what's spread the fire so quickly. You can see stuff dropping off the outside and flames falling.

 

It's cooncil owned.

[donsdaft]

e cladding used and that's what's spread the fire so quickly. You can see stuff dropping off the outside and flames falling.

 

 

 

 

 

Aye, looked like the modern equivalent of expanded polystyrene tiles covered in gloss paint.

[RicoS321]

A chap on channel 4 nailed it when he said that they had only cladded the building in the first place to make it more pleasing to the eye of those who live in the nicer parts, and now that the cosmetic upgrade has caused it to be burned down, it'll just be replaced by expensive private flats. The irony being, that if they then went on fire, nae cunt would be living in them anyway as they've all been sold to foreign billionaires.

[baggy89]

It's cooncil owned.

 

Apologies.

Still it's semantics the Council are the slum landlord in this case, arguably worse. Uultimately there will be no accountability. The buck will be passed until a couple resign with a big pay off to accept partial responsibility.

[tom_widdows]

Refurb sounds half assed but I feel the key to this is the external cladding system and the manufacturer/ contractor will be shitting themselves on that.

 

Over cladding/ applying insulated render to existing buildings has been pushed quite heavily since the government really took an interest in Carbon Dioxide emissions and it has always struck me as a recipe for disaster but I always looked at the risk of condensation/damp, and sick building syndrome.

The prospect that it might actually create a fire cage around a building did not occur to me. There will be lots of developers, housing associations, local councils etc frantically going through their records and I wont be surprised if lots of people suddenly find themselves being turfed into temporary accommodation

 

They had a high ranking fireman on the radio today getting grilled by some irritating presenter and he made a very valid point. 'Buildings such as this are designed in such a way that the fire is always fought from within'.

That's why you have smoke vents, sprinkler systems, internal fire alarms, dry risers, smoke lobbies, double door protection etc. Now what happens when the fire starts and spreads on the outside?

That just doesn't happen with Bricks/ Concrete/ Steel cladding, Glass etc.

Certain insulations and cladding systems on the other hand....Anyone ever seen a timber skyscraper?

 

I'm speculating here but it may be the case the smoke vent system actually detected the fire and then activated however as the fire was outside, then rather than letting the smoke out, it created a route for the fire & smoke to get in.

Also the windows in the flats were all sealed shut (safety feature) and I suspect they would have been toughened/ laminated but NOT fire glass. As the fire spread up the cladding the extreme heat would shatter the windows allowing the smoke and fire another way in. The 'stay put' safety drill is fucked the moment your flat's 1hr protected enclosure is compromised.

 

I've heard several people making claims about what the UK allows when it comes to building design but in some cases this has been misleading given A) they are talking about an existing 1970s building and B) some of the things claimed are certainly not permitted under Scottish Building regulations.

The modern equivalent of those flats requires dedicated fire fighting stairs & lifts. Minimum 2-3 escape stairs from each floor, sprinklers etc and possibly the most relevant one in this case is any external cladding on a high rise building must be NON-COMBUSTIBLE. In England it is only LIMITED COMBUSTIBILITY.

 

Building regs are one of the things I actually find interesting but so many others in my field hate them as it 'restricts the design' or 'increase costs'. The last part is a major worry as in so many situations people will bypass those who follow the regs and go to 'yes' men or cowboys who will design/ build anything you want as long as you pay them.

 

 

 

 

[Kowalski]

Fucking horrific stuff. Doesn't bear thinking about having to throw your baby out of a window.

Very surprising in the UK for this to happen. Some serious heads need to roll.

 

I see Jamie Oliver is offering free food. Surely the residents have suffered enough?

[baggy89]

Refurb sounds half assed but I feel the key to this is the external cladding system and the manufacturer/ contractor will be shitting themselves on that.

 

Over cladding/ applying insulated render to existing buildings has been pushed quite heavily since the government really took an interest in Carbon Dioxide emissions and it has always struck me as a recipe for disaster but I always looked at the risk of condensation/damp, and sick building syndrome.

The prospect that it might actually create a fire cage around a building did not occur to me. There will be lots of developers, housing associations, local councils etc frantically going through their records and I wont be surprised if lots of people suddenly find themselves being turfed into temporary accommodation

 

They had a high ranking fireman on the radio today getting grilled by some irritating presenter and he made a very valid point. 'Buildings such as this are designed in such a way that the fire is always fought from within'.

That's why you have smoke vents, sprinkler systems, internal fire alarms, dry risers, smoke lobbies, double door protection etc. Now what happens when the fire starts and spreads on the outside?

That just doesn't happen with Bricks/ Concrete/ Steel cladding, Glass etc.

Certain insulations and cladding systems on the other hand....Anyone ever seen a timber skyscraper?

 

I'm speculating here but it may be the case the smoke vent system actually detected the fire and then activated however as the fire was outside, then rather than letting the smoke out, it created a route for the fire & smoke to get in.

Also the windows in the flats were all sealed shut (safety feature) and I suspect they would have been toughened/ laminated but NOT fire glass. As the fire spread up the cladding the extreme heat would shatter the windows allowing the smoke and fire another way in. The 'stay put' safety drill is fucked the moment your flat's 1hr protected enclosure is compromised.

 

I've heard several people making claims about what the UK allows when it comes to building design but in some cases this has been misleading given A) they are talking about an existing 1970s building and B) some of the things claimed are certainly not permitted under Scottish Building regulations.

The modern equivalent of those flats requires dedicated fire fighting stairs & lifts. Minimum 2-3 escape stairs from each floor, sprinklers etc and possibly the most relevant one in this case is any external cladding on a high rise building must be NON-COMBUSTIBLE. In England it is only LIMITED COMBUSTIBILITY.

 

Building regs are one of the things I actually find interesting but so many others in my field hate them as it 'restricts the design' or 'increase costs'. The last part is a major worry as in so many situations people will bypass those who follow the regs and go to 'yes' men or cowboys who will design/ build anything you want as long as you pay them.

 

Especially, as was pointed out to me earlier, in this case it's a council doing the tendering. I have dealings with a few local authorities and completed a number of tenders and no matter which way it is dressed up it is always a race to the bottom. I won't profess to know what the solution is because everyone is always looking to gain "best value" and there will always be cowboys willing cut corners to make a quick £.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

This is a scandal, a scandal of Hillsborough type proportions.

 

People packed into a high rife with inadequate fire rules surrounded by highly flammable materials - insulation and cladding.  Told to remain in their homes in the event of a fire.

 

Burned alive.  Burned alive.  Kids hanging from the 17th floor with teddy bears.

 

Many people should be jailed over this - held to account.  There will be huge ramifications for all high rises.

 

What will probably happen is an enquiry will happen and it will be a whitewash.  MP's will get away with it - some of them have been sitting on warning reports for years.

 

I've worked in London - the inequalities in housing are shocking and utterly despicable.  You are speaking about people living 10 to a house across every borough.  Huge cost of rents and living.  £1,400 for a one bedroom rental.

 

Corrupt letting agencies raking in money who do not give a shit about peoples living conditions. 

 

Huge amounts of land and property owned by foreign investors - cash cows managed through letting agencies.

 

This tower block incident is symbolic of all the housing inequalities down in London.

 

Disgrace.

 

 

[tom_widdows]

In the last few years several tower blocks have been demolished in Glasgow (most famous is probably the Red Road Flats) with actual houses and max. 2-3 storey blocks of flats replacing them.

I was hoping this trend would continue until all the 60s/70s designs were gone but in the posher areas the over-cladding has become the fashion with work now coming to an end on the Broomhill 'scheme'  which includes five 18-storey towers built in the centre of one of the most expensive postcodes in the city.

I have seen a few of the flats in that block on the market so I'm suspecting that as soon as you make the step into 'private & social tenants' demolition of such towers is out of the question.

 

Now who was it that had the great idea of selling off Council houses again?

[100% Anti Kingsford]

It may turn into a huge scandal - it's bigger than Hillsborough - maybe given horror of it.  Heads will roll over it surely but whether they are right people is anyone's guess. These enquiries can be notoriously whitewashed due to govt pressures.

 

For me at the centre of it all is this the issue of housing inequality.  People (landlords, tenant management companies) lining pockets from substandard properties and social housing.

 

Councils are equally to blame as they have made money out of leasing the management of this property to a private company.  They are also making lots of money selling council stock to private companies.  Ethically its a sitation that has allowed to happen thanks to consecutive govt.

 

If anyone has not worked in London go there - the housing and renting situation is disgraceful.  Massive inequalities, huge rental rip off market, letting agencies who care nothing about tenants.

[rocket_scientist]

The class divide. Public schooled rulers who despise people who aren't the same as them.

 

And yet the masses keep voting them in?

 

What will eventually come out is that corners were cut and safety was compromised.

 

All so that "the connected" can make money from the public purse.

 

It keeps on happening and it's being facilitated by a complicit media.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Agree, the inequality class divide - 21st century.  Bigger questions here than simply a fire.

 

There will be a majority if not all of the people in that block asylum seekers, working class blokes who live alone, older ladies, students.

 

Its all about people lining pockets, making money out of social housing, big deals - land deals, rent deals, sell offs to investment companies.

 

Its all about MP's who were warned years ago about the safety risks but chose to ignore.  They should get jailed sopposedly one of them is Chief of Staff of May.

 

If you watch all these crisis and tragedies of last 3 months - all of them have a common theme.  That is  superficial soundbites about communities pulling together etc, but there is no pulling together as communities especially in London are hugely divided.

 

This is no terrorist episode behidn this - this is pure greed and incompetent muck ups.

 

That skyscraper will get demolished in 2 years and the land will be sold to some investment company in Canary Wharf and flats built that nobody can afford.

 

That is how bad it all is.

[tamzarian]

The class divide. Public schooled rulers who despise people who aren't the same as them.

 

And yet the masses keep voting them in?

 

What will eventually come out is that corners were cut and safety was compromised.

 

All so that "the connected" can make money from the public purse.

 

It keeps on happening and it's being facilitated by a complicit media.

 

The BBC's focus seems to be on the "community spirit, everyone pulling together" angle.  Taking pictures of folk dumping crates of water off at community centres and the like.  At some point these no doubt well-intentioned people will realise they're effectively donating stuff to deid folk. 

 

We're good at post-tragedy pointless gestures, not so good at preventing tragedies fucking happening. 

 

[RicoS321]

The BBC's focus seems to be on the "community spirit, everyone pulling together" angle.  Taking pictures of folk dumping crates of water off at community centres and the like.  At some point these no doubt well-intentioned people will realise they're effectively donating stuff to deid folk. 

 

We're good at post-tragedy pointless gestures, not so good at preventing tragedies fucking happening.

 

I just arranged a public grief-session in my village, before lighting 17 candles for the dead and let off some chinese lanterns to symbolise those still missing. At almost 20 years since Diana, when will these tragedies stop?

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Yeah, true.  Same platitudes after every single tragedy the length and breadth of the country - Books of condolence, memory walls with RIP, minutes silence, concerts, flowers by the dozen, 'communities pulling together' is the current favourite of the BBC and Teresa May.  Another phoney one that appeared was #jesuischarlie #welovemanchester - hashtag society - empty nonsense.

 

Communities are not pulling together, are they?  Especially in London.  These incidents whether terrorism or that fire are manifestations of inequality and prejudice, not togetherness.

 

500metres from that Tower building are houses worth £1.2m.

 

These communities where Grenfell Tower are, are hard pressed, shit on, crapped on and at the bottom of a rotten society.  The people will be forgotten in two weeks.

 

Its about time these phoney out pourings of selfish cartharthic mourning stopped.  We need Solutions to the problems of society.  2m people marching in London on Westminster demanding fairer housing policies might help.

[rocket_scientist]

"The queen arrives to meet victims" is the banner headline just now.

 

But the PM did NOT meet anybody other than firefighters.

 

Corbyn was well received when he attended.

 

The reason why May is prevented from meeting real people is cos she's a social fuck-up.

 

Anyone with a half-decent or even a barely functioning robust instinct can see that she's a vile human being.

 

And yet the NE of Scotland (bar one constituency) voted Conservative?

 

 

[Tyrant]

"The queen arrives to meet victims" is the banner headline just now.

 

But the PM did NOT meet anybody other than firefighters.

 

Corbyn was well received when he attended.

 

The reason why May is prevented from meeting real people is cos she's a social fuck-up.

 

Anyone with a half-decent or even a barely functioning robust instinct can see that she's a vile human being.

 

And yet the NE of Scotland (bar one constituency) voted Conservative?

 

 

Mostly vile cunts up here though, Rocket.

[rocket_scientist]

 

Mostly vile cunts up here though, Rocket.

 

Alas true but mostly vile cunts everywhere, only the proportions thereof differs by location.

 

Or is that really the case?

 

Every individual has the capacity for good or evil. It's how we choose to behave.

 

I think our leaders set the examples and corruption being systemic, it's no wonder most are self-interested.

 

Corruption is a natural consequence of having power in a culture that doesn't maintain its checks and balances.

 

Lawyers are mostly to blame. They are the root cause of all evil, more so than money.

 

Stick that in yer Friday pipe and smoke it

 

 

 

 

[Tyrant]

[100% Anti Kingsford]

A few classics in the media today.

 

Outside the memorial wall near Tower appeared 'Brooklyn Beckham' who the papers report looked 'highly emotional' and was clearly 'welling up' at the scene.  But he did turn up looking highly fashionable.

 

Meanwhile, the Queen showed up and called the fire 'so awfully ghastly'.

 

This weekend she is off to shoot pheasants at Sandringham.

 

That, and the appearance of Brooklyn Beckham has alleviated the trauma.

 

ps. Simon Cowell is getting a group of artists together to release a single.

 

Clearly there are people who care.

 

pps. Politicians are currently looking at a range of policies and have called for politics to be taken out of the issue.