Milne response

[Ten Caat]

Most of them work long hours or many of them are at home with the wife having bed time hot chocolate and cookies.

 

That sort of thing....

 

They may indeed be enjoying bed time. But in Edinburgh, where  the majority of the top lawyers practise, it may not be with the wife....

 

Check out an enquiry, led by the ubiquitous Lord Nimmo Smith prior to his retirement and subsequent appointment to the oldco investigation...

 

And you know what? The IAAF have been chasing up athletes for drug doping decades down the line and removing Olympic, World, European and other major championship medals. If they can do it then so can the SFA/SPFL for financial doping. Cheating is cheating and must be pursued and punished.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

1. If our reputation is rock bottom, then there is nothing to lose is there?

 

2. Clubs are sports bodies. Sport is about winning things, and in all sports there arer a set of rules. If those rules are circumvented then it should be addressed.

 

3. You mean like when Armageddon hit us? That pish has been well and truly dispelled. Doncaster & regan are highly culpable in not being able to get a TV deal that even matches Rugby League, rugby fucking league, a sport contained within a small area of north west guffland.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/scottish-football-paid-a-pittance-10124880

 

4. And sporting integrity.

 

5. SPORT. SPORT. It's a fucking SPORT, it's not about how much £ this would make, nor even any other club being "awarded" a title (they should be voided), it's about fair play and sporting integrity.

 

6. Nothing to lose (as you say we're rock bottom, and as the DR reports we're rock bottom in TV revenue), and everything to gain by cleaning up the game and it's apparent and publicly waved favouritism to a team that no longer even exists in the same format as it did at the time of cheating.

 

 

Maybe it's because I'm a golfer, or maybe just that I was brought up this way, but you call penalties on yourself even if it hurts because it's the right thing to do. However I don;t see any of this being proposed by the fans as self-flagellation, on the contrary, it would sort a lot of problems. Simple as that.

 

You may be a golfer but not I would guess an expert in Law, Scots law, sporting law.

 

Neither is this 'remove the titles' thing simply a round of golf, it's pretty obvious given what has gone on in Italy it's a massive legal minefield.  The SFA clearly can't just remove the titles and that is the end of it - there are courts, appeals, arbitration courts, supreme courts, appeals to courts, civil cases - see Serie A and FIGC (re: Juventus case) - its still going on 13 years later.

 

IMO too many Reds have gotten knickers in a twist of this matter and Rangers.  Rangers were punished whether you like it or not - that is a statement of fact in that they were demoted to League II, reformed and are now back in top flight.  I could not give a flying hoot or wish to argue over whether its old Rangers, new Rangers, middle rangers or whatever.

 

Maybe a forum is not the place for people to see objectively and sensibly but if you can't see stripping the titles would lead to years if not decades of legal fights and arguments - that AFC our club could do without - then you are blind.

 

[RicoS321]

Rangers were punished whether you like it or not - that is a statement of fact in that they were demoted to League II, reformed and are now back in top flight.  I could not give a flying hoot or wish to argue over whether its old Rangers, new Rangers, middle rangers or whatever.

 

That isn't a statement of fact, because you're entirely incorrect. You don't need to argue whether it's old,new Rangers, it's entirely irrelevant. Argument doesn't affect facts. A new club applied to become a member and Dundee were given Rangers' SPL membership. That is a statement of fact. No demotion of any club. That is also a statement of fact. I could capitalise "fact" if you think that'd help?

 

Maybe a forum is not the place for people to see objectively and sensibly but if you can't see stripping the titles would lead to years if not decades of legal fights and arguments - that AFC our club could do without - then you are blind.

 

Seeing objectively and sensibly has nothing to do with anything. It's a cut and dry case of right and wrong. Decades of legal fights and arguments would have no effect on AFC whatsoever, just as Inter Milan haven't been adversely affected by Serie A's decision to do the right thing. If it turned out that AFC cheated to win the ECWC in 83, or even the more recent/relevant 2014 league cup, I'd want that title stripped. That's not a punishment. Everyone had their enjoyment from those occasions, and will remember them fondly. It's simply a case of updating the records to acknowledge the cheating that took place. The absurdity that title-stripping is a punishment and that it can, in some way, reverse feelings that occurred on a day many years is a strange myth to be perpetuated. It's simply an updating of history to reflect new evidence. Think of it as a bit like removing Jimmy Saville's knighthood.

[donsdaft]

Through the back of my shop, pinned to the wall, is the printout of the league fixture list where one of the teams is called "Club 12"

 

It's a bit faded but I can't bring myself to take it down.

 

Rangers ceased to exist, they were never relegated (or demoted if you prefer)

 

They were bloody lucky that people were prepared to bend/break the rules to let the new version start in league 2 straight away.

[Madbadteacher]

Would I like to see "titles stripped"? In the name of fairness, yes.

Do I really give a fuck aboyt Rangers/oldco/newco/sevco to get myself upset? No.

 

I saw a fexbook post from a supporters group trying to promote a new "song" that had "rangers" comments in it for tonight's game. Eh, no, we can sing AT them when we play them, other than that it's an irrelevance and should be treated as such. To paraphrase, I don't like them and I really don't care. (Except to laugh at them when they lose like diddies)

 

[OxfordDon]

I've not read anything in depth about the ongoing saga as it doesn't affect my life and I'm not interested. There are many subjects that don't affect me directly that I am interested in. This - Rangers - isn't one of them.

 

What I don't get is the HMRC case/appeal whatever. Who are they suing? If Oldco no longer exists, are they challenging the very existence of Newco? There's no doubt that assets like the real estate on which Ibrox sits were taken over by the Newco. Is the corporate dissolution of one company and the creation of another being challenged? If so, now I could get interested.

 

I don't give a fuck about Nimmo, Regan, Doncaster et al. I want to know what the basis of the legal contest is.

 

Hemmin, thought you said you were a lawyer? 

 

Even though the old club, sorry, company is dead, the decision was appealed by HMRC mainly for three reasons:

 

a) To set legal precedent

b) To assure creditor status on the approx. £30 million being held in escrow by BDO, the liquidators of Rangers.

3) To gain authority to force repayment of loans and/or taxes by employees that benefitted from the EBTs.

[OxfordDon]

Neil Doncaster invites fans to air views on SPFL's handling of EBT issue

 

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Through the back of my shop, pinned to the wall, is the printout of the league fixture list where one of the teams is called "Club 12"

 

It's a bit faded but I can't bring myself to take it down.

 

Rangers ceased to exist, they were never relegated (or demoted if you prefer)

 

They were bloody lucky that people were prepared to bend/break the rules to let the new version start in league 2 straight away.

 

I don't think that is correct. 

 

Lots, as in LOTS of clubs go bankrupt and are liquidated and cease to exist. These clubs then reform using same branding, logo etc and start in lower league. This has happened in lots of leagues and lots of cases all around Europe and probably the world.

 

I will give you some similar cases to Rangers:

 

Italy: Fiorentina, Parma and Napoli

France: Strasbourg

Norway: Lyn Oslo

England: Wimbledon, Accrington Stanley, Aldershot, Chester City

Scotland: Airdrieonians, Gretna

Belgium: RWD Molenbeek

Romania: Rapid Bucharest

Wales: Newport County

 

There are many other cases of clubs going bust and reforming and starting lower down league ladder.  Clubs go bust, reform and there is nothing you can do to prevent them reforming, reconstituting and taking on the intellectual rights and property, playing license of former clubs especially so a club like Rangers which has 100,000's fans worldwide.

 

In the realms of this argument, a lot of people seem to think Rangers should have ceased to exist permanently.  The SFA can't just liquidate a club and then refuse a playing license especially a club like Rangers.  Impossible - would not happen to a club of that size, with the fans and stadia they have. They could easily have gone to the Lowland League but they would still have fought way back to SPL given huge resources they have.

 

Even Gretna have been able to reform and can theoretically be back in SPL in 5 years.  They are in Lowland League playing East Stirling etc

 

Parma is already back in Seria B after being in Serie D2. 

 

Rangers in whatever guise were punished. No point saying otherwise.  They probably cant be stripped of titles as huge legal implications involved with it!

 

Obviously, Aberdeen Mad and Donstalk want them stripped of titles such is life on planet cyber but it's not the reality of the situation is it?

 

 

 

 

 

[Madbadteacher]

I think to point was more WHERE they were allowed to register as a new club. (I'll bet that if it were, say, Dundee Utd. that had gone under the "new Utd." would have started at the bottom (and not the bottom of the SPFL))

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Yes, but the point is there is only one league below League II (Lowland League).  Winners of that league go to Scottish League II.  It would not mattered if Rangers had gone to Lowland League they would have won it at a breeze as its so weak and full of semi professional, University teams.  It would not have mattered if they went down to Juniors or SoSFL as they would have won those and came back.

 

Clubs in these leagues anyway can jump through hoops anyway depending on how big they are via club licensing agreements in order to make it through leagues.  Kelty Hearts (biggest team in Juniors East) are now in EoSFL and Eduport Academy as in Lowland league thanks to SFA, SPFL - these clubs can reach SPL.

 

When Rangers were demoted and went bust they could only start in League II - it was only league at that time (2012) where a professional club could go.

 

Gretna were kicked out of the league like Rangers, reconstituted as Gretna and reformed - playing at same ground, same kit, same colours and got a playing license and are in Lowland league.

 

Parma went bust, reformed and went into Serie D and are now in Serie B.

 

I get forums are about opinion - great but the context of arguments on here are not based on thought or rationale.  If Aberdeen FC led some campaign to strip Rangers of titles (which some have called for) then we would be putting ourselves as a club at the forefront of potential legal proceedings from Rangers and find it hard to get out of being implicated in them!

[Ten Caat]

I don't think that is correct. 

 

Lots, as in LOTS of clubs go bankrupt and are liquidated and cease to exist. These clubs then reform using same branding, logo etc and start in lower league. This has happened in lots of leagues and lots of cases all around Europe and probably the world.

 

I will give you some similar cases to Rangers:

 

Italy: Fiorentina, Parma and Napoli

France: Strasbourg

Norway: Lyn Oslo

England: Wimbledon, Accrington Stanley, Aldershot, Chester City

Scotland: Airdrieonians, Gretna

Belgium: RWD Molenbeek

Romania: Rapid Bucharest

Wales: Newport County

 

There are many other cases of clubs going bust and reforming and starting lower down league ladder.  Clubs go bust, reform and there is nothing you can do to prevent them reforming, reconstituting and taking on the intellectual rights and property, playing license of former clubs especially so a club like Rangers which has 100,000's fans worldwide.

 

In the realms of this argument, a lot of people seem to think Rangers should have ceased to exist permanently.  The SFA can't just liquidate a club and then refuse a playing license especially a club like Rangers.  Impossible - would not happen to a club of that size, with the fans and stadia they have. They could easily have gone to the Lowland League but they would still have fought way back to SPL given huge resources they have.

 

Even Gretna have been able to reform and can theoretically be back in SPL in 5 years.  They are in Lowland League playing East Stirling etc

 

Parma is already back in Seria B after being in Serie D2. 

 

Rangers in whatever guise were punished. No point saying otherwise.  They probably cant be stripped of titles as huge legal implications involved with it!

 

Obviously, Aberdeen Mad and Donstalk want them stripped of titles such is life on planet cyber but it's not the reality of the situation is it?

 

To take just one example from your list, lets look at "Airdrieonians". Went bust. Liquidated. Gone. Finito. No mention of holding companies being liquidated but the "club" living on. Just dead.

 

Fast forward a few weeks after some mourning from their fans, a consortium of people led by Jim Bannantyne form a new club.....Airdrie United. One problem though. No SFA membership. Solution.....buy the membership of an existing club. Clydebank are in desperate financial straits....deal goes through and Airdrie United are accepted as a new club into the league system, starting at the bottom of the structure. Without this course of action they would have been forced to apply for membership of the SJFA and work their way up the leagues and at that time, should a vacancy have arisen in the SFL league structure, applied for membership and be judged on its merits, a la Gretna, Elgin City etc.

 

And Clydebank cease to exist....gone, finito dead etc ( Reincarnated as a new club again a few weeks later and with nowhere to go in the SFL structure, apply and are accepted into the SJFA (West) structure.

 

Fast forward a few seasons (10 or 11 IIRC)  the directors of Airdrie United change the name of the club to Airdrieonians  masking but changing the legal status of the company as a totally new entity.

 

Sevco are NOT Rangers. And I will go to my grave saying this. Once they voluntarily ( or are forced to by some legislative process) I will accept they are called Rangers. Linked to by historical ties but completely separate from the dead entity.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

You'll 'go to your grave' over this issue - wow!

 

Mind boggling just the extent to which anti-Rangers sentiment has take over the motivations of some Dons fans existence.

 

May I suggest, maybe channelling these feelings it into something more positive?  Life is too short to spend time worrying about whether Rangers are Rangers or Rangers FC 2012 or whatever.

[OxfordDon]

 

Gretna were kicked out of the league like Rangers, reconstituted as Gretna and reformed - playing at same ground, same kit, same colours and got a playing license and are in Lowland league.

 

 

Gretna FC very clearly ceased to be, to the extent that the new club is officially called Gretna FC 2008 to avoid any confusion.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretna_F.C._2008

 

Also, from your list, Wimbledon doesn't exist any more either - AFC Wimbledon are a different club.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Wimbledon

 

The there's Airdrieonians, who are not a continuation of the old, dead, Airdrieonians, but who started life as Airdrie Utd.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airdrieonians_F.C.

 

You really dinnae do yerself any favours min.

 

 

[100% Anti Kingsford]

All 3 clubs you mention are reconstituted variations on the older original clubs using in almost all cases similar if not totally identical intellectual property (club badge), tap into same fan base and list same historical achievements under club history.

 

I am afraid Oxford Don your argument is highly flawed and you've either not done your research or are arguing for arguing sake.

[OxfordDon]

All 3 clubs you mention are reconstituted variations on the older original clubs using in almost all cases similar if not totally identical intellectual property (club badge), tap into same fan base and list same historical achievements under club history.

 

I am afraid Oxford Don your argument is highly flawed and you've either not done your research or are arguing for arguing sake.

 

Alright, how about this.  I'm going to give you one example of why you are speaking shite, and then i want you to give me one example of why you are not.

 

I'll go first.

 

The Gretna F.C. 2008 comes from Scotland, and as its name suggests, it was founded in 2008. Some consider it to be the restoration of the Gretna F.C. which lasted from 1946 to 2008. But, Gretna 2008 tries to keep its image separated from the preceding bankrupted club, and that is why they adopted a new name not to be associated with the bankrupt Gretna F.C.

 

http://www.gretnasupporterssociety.co.uk/

 

Your turn.

[Garlogie_Granite]

When Rangers were demoted and went bust they could only start in League II - it was only league at that time (2012) where a professional club could go.

 

Gretna were kicked out of the league like Rangers, reconstituted as Gretna and reformed - playing at same ground, same kit, same colours and got a playing license and are in Lowland league.

You see the issue here you gibbering fuckwit?

[100% Anti Kingsford]

You see the issue here you gibbering fuckwit?

 

Listen, mate, I am well aware you like to come on here and issue out lots of name calling at me to me - I am fed up of it.  If you want me to start back you narrow-minded tcheuter arsehole I can.

 

Basically anything ~ I post ~ you come on and disagree with.  At the root of it is the Stadium issue.

 

Basically I can count 4 or 5 insults you have thrown at me on here you wanker.

 

You sit right and home with your bitterness to Rangers and throw your insults about.

 

See that last post - make it your last reply to me on here.

 

Wanker.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

Alright, how about this.  I'm going to give you one example of why you are speaking shite, and then i want you to give me one example of why you are not.

 

I'll go first.

 

http://www.gretnasupporterssociety.co.uk/

 

Your turn.

 

Again Oxford Don - desperate mate. Very desperate.

 

Anyone with any understanding of football culture, history, clubs knows that current clubs such as Gretna, Fiorentina, Napoli, Parma, Aldershot, Accrington Stanley, Lyn Oslo, Strasbourg are the same club or at least a continuation of the previous incarnation.

 

Same fans, same colours, same badge, largely same ground, same intellectual property etc.

 

I am afriad (swallow your pride) Rangers are the same club. May have folded, may have went bankrupt and liquidated - but its same set of fans, same name, same stadium, same ethics, same support, same chants, same tea ladies etc.

 

And its the same at Gretna - same badge different incarnation.

 

YOU (and lots of the people on here) know that if Oxford United ever go bust in the near future, the re constituted club - see Hereford, Maidstone, Aldershot, Accrington etc - will be followed by the same group of fans, wearing same colours all looking back on same history.

 

Like a few others on here.  Can I suggest (Oxford Don) you take all your bitterness towards Rangers, and all your hate and all your misguided flawed arguments about them, and maybe look at Rangers in the harsh reality of other examples?

 

Namely -  Fiorentina, Napoli, Aldershot, Lyn, Hereford, GRETNA, Rapid Bucharest, Parma.

 

Meantime bud, I have a team to follow (Aberdeen) the only one in Scotland bothered about.  See you in Cyprus - or maybe not given you'll be on here rabbitting about Rangers.

 

 

[OxfordDon]

Again Oxford Don - desperate mate. Very desperate.

 

Anyone with any understanding of football culture, history, clubs knows that current clubs such as Gretna, Fiorentina, Napoli, Parma, Aldershot, Accrington Stanley, Lyn Oslo, Strasbourg are the same club or at least a continuation of the previous incarnation.

 

Same fans, same colours, same badge, largely same ground, same intellectual property etc.

 

I am afriad (swallow your pride) Rangers are the same club. May have folded, may have went bankrupt and liquidated - but its same set of fans, same name, same stadium, same ethics, same support, same chants, same tea ladies etc.

 

And its the same at Gretna - same badge different incarnation.

 

YOU (and lots of the people on here) know that if Oxford United ever go bust in the near future, the re constituted club - see Hereford, Maidstone, Aldershot, Accrington etc - will be followed by the same group of fans, wearing same colours all looking back on same history.

 

Like a few others on here.  Can I suggest (Oxford Don) you take all your bitterness towards Rangers, and all your hate and all your misguided flawed arguments about them, and maybe look at Rangers in the harsh reality of other examples?

 

Namely -  Fiorentina, Napoli, Aldershot, Lyn, Hereford, GRETNA, Rapid Bucharest, Parma.

 

Meantime bud, I have a team to follow (Aberdeen) the only one in Scotland bothered about.  See you in Cyprus - or maybe not given you'll be on here rabbitting about Rangers.

 

So basically your argument is that you ignore what you have been shown - the official statement from the Gretna Supporter's Society, the actual founders of Gretna 2008, stating in black and white they are not associated with the previous club - and insist you know better than them or anyone else.

 

Incidentally, only you have mentioned Rangers.  Bud.

[100% Anti Kingsford]

You are the one ignoring evidence (both historical and current) that many clubs are incarnations of previously existing clubs. 

 

Included amongst that are Gretna 2008, Rangers, Fiorentina, Napoli, Parma, Lyn, Hereford, Maidstone etc etc etc.

 

I think you are just creating an argument for the sake of it.  If you watch or go and watch Gretna (as I have done) it is exactly the same club in name, colour, badge, strip, ground, social club as the old club.

 

I take it if OUFC goes bust the reformed club will be completely different and not related to the original?

[rocket_scientist]

I am afraid Oxford Don your argument is highly flawed and you've either not done your research or are arguing for arguing sake.

 

 

I think you are just creating an argument for the sake of it.

 

It took you a while to figure him out.

 

Mummy's boy I reckon. A virgin with fuck all else to do in his life than nit pick on tinternet.

[OxfordDon]

 

 

It took you a while to figure him out.

 

Mummy's boy I reckon. A virgin with fuck all else to do in his life than nit pick on tinternet.

 

You're saving me a fortune in therapy, thanks

[jess]

 

I am afriad (swallow your pride) Rangers are the same club. May have folded, may have went bankrupt and liquidated - but its same set of fans, same name, same stadium, same ethics, same support, same chants, same tea ladies etc.

 

That's all well and good except Rangers were a company. It had shareholders not members.

 

It's a new company. It's a different member of the league and SFA.

 

Don't bother wasting your time about your perception of what's the same.

[Nips_and_Tatties]

I've watched horror films since I was about 8 and I know this.

 

First time I saw Dracula being killed by a stake, I thought oh good, the goodies won.

 

Few years later a new Dracula surfaced to spread his evil. Killed again.

 

Few years later, another fucking Dracula turns up. Same guise..the cloak , fangs etc but a different actor.

 

Killed again...

 

Will he ever truly die???

 

[OxfordDon]

You are the one ignoring evidence (both historical and current) that many clubs are incarnations of previously existing clubs. 

 

Included amongst that are Gretna 2008, Rangers, Fiorentina, Napoli, Parma, Lyn, Hereford, Maidstone etc etc etc.

 

I think you are just creating an argument for the sake of it.  If you watch or go and watch Gretna (as I have done) it is exactly the same club in name, colour, badge, strip, ground, social club as the old club.

 

I take it if OUFC goes bust the reformed club will be completely different and not related to the original?

 

Here's a nice child-friendly primer for you.