Tom Crotty

[RicoS321]

Never heard of him. Good stuff the dons though.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42051573

[February1971]

good news for the club.

 

What has that horrible little weasel ever done to help the club he claims to love so much?

 

23 years, he has watched others put there hands in there pockets while he sits in his mansion counting the pennies.

HE IS the big problem.

 

[Kowalski]

I’m no fan of Milne but to suggest he hasn’t dipped his hand in his pocket is an astonishing claim.

[February1971]

I’m no fan of Milne but to suggest he hasn’t dipped his hand in his pocket is an astonishing claim.

 

if he has it isn't enough, unless you have some figures.

 

No training facilities for this club is a disgrace and complete lack of foresight.

As for the stadium, least said the better.

 

Who cleared the debt, Milne?

[rocket_scientist]

I’m no fan of Milne but to suggest he hasn’t dipped his hand in his pocket is an astonishing claim.

 

It would only be astonishing if you had evidence to the contrary to be astonished by the ill-informed remark.

 

Since you don't believe everything you read, please share the source of your astonishment.

 

I wouldn't be astonished by either he's put in tuppence hapenny or he's put in fuck all because I don't know if or what he's put in. As someone who is accounts-literate however, I've not seen the gifts he's supposed to have given, as some claim. One thing I do know is that he paid considerably less per share for his 28.6% than we all did for our shares.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

Who cleared the debt, Milne?

 

Milne cleared £4.4M of the debt at the end of 2014.  Not sure how much he has put into the club in total but even if it's "just" the £4.4M it's hardly the "tuppence hapenny" or "fuck all" as you suggest rocket.

 

How much was it exactly that you put in for ALL your shares? 

[rocket_scientist]

Milne cleared £4.4M of the debt at the end of 2014.  Not sure how much he has put into the club in total but even if it's "just" the £4.4M it's hardly the "tuppence hapenny" or "fuck all" as you suggest rocket.

 

How much was it exactly that you put in for ALL your shares? 

 

You’re saying that Milne donated £4.4m? You believe this? Good grief.

 

Clearing a debt takes many forms. What did Wm Donald give and what did he get in return?

 

We, Aberdeen supporters, almost 3,000 of us, ALL COLLEVTIVELY paid considerably more per share than Milne did.

[Kowalski]

At least you’ve admitted he’s put something in.

I was of course referring to the debt clearance in 2014.

 

But I totally agree about training facilities. I don’t think the council have exactly helped over the years though.

[rocket_scientist]

At least you’ve admitted he’s put something in.

I was of course referring to the debt clearance in 2014.

 

But I totally agree about training facilities. I don’t think the council have exactly helped over the years though.

 

I’m not “admitting” that. As I already said;

 

1. I don’t know

2. I don’t see this in the accounts

3. Clearing debt takes many forms

 

You two are much more informed on this subject, clearly.

 

So will you now spell out the nature and form of Milne’s generosity?

[RicoS321]

A couple of things:

 

1. I dinna think Milne did clear the debt. He converted his loans to preferential share capital (or at least - I think - SMG did, as did AAM) which would become payable upon sale of the stadium (conflict?) as far as I remember.

 

2. It is very difficult for any person just to clear debt, or invest etc when yer monies are tied up in businesses. I'm in no way being critical of SM for his lack/perceived lack of investment in the club. We should be good enough, and well enough run, that we shouldn't need Milne or any other person to be investing in us on an on-going basis. Had SM built a better business (facilities etc) earlier then it could be argued that any investment he has/hasn't made wouldn't have been necessary as we may/may not have been making more money from our existing assets.

[February1971]

Milne cleared £4.4M of the debt at the end of 2014.  Not sure how much he has put into the club in total but even if it's "just" the £4.4M it's hardly the "tuppence hapenny" or "fuck all" as you suggest rocket.

 

How much was it exactly that you put in for ALL your shares? 

 

I don't have a clue what Milne has contributed financially over the years as Chairman, I can only go on what I see.

 

The Donald family wiped the majority of the debt out, and reportedly got 20% shareholding.

Stewart Milne Group were owed 4.4 m (I presume due to the building of the RD Stand) which SM traded for a bigger shareholding, from 29% to 43%.

I never said he has contributed nothing, but stand by my thoughts that it has not been enough.

 

The fact the club has done reasonably well over the last 4 years doesn't change the mess off the field.

The lack of training facilities is nothing short of disgraceful for a club like Aberdeen.

The Stadium fiasco just goes on and on.

My feelings are a successful businessman like Milne should have had the foresight/ contacts/ knowhow to have done something about this before now.

Off the field we have fallen behind a lot of clubs, and if things start to go wrong on the field (which is more than possible)who knows where we will end up.

Certainly doesn't help when trying to attract decent players or indeed a manager when we next require one.

 

He doesn't seem to have much problem getting land to build more houses.

If this Kingsford project doesn't get the go ahead I worry about the future of AFC.

He is the Chairman of Aberdeen Football Club, it was his choice.

The buck stops with him.

 

I agree the Council are a bunch of self important clowns, which does not help.

 

 

 

[RicoS321]

Those percentages don't ring a bell, I don't remember the Donalds being given that shareholding. If they had, I think it would have had to been offered to other investors, as it would surely have diluted their holding?

 

I don't suppose it matters, just interesting.

 

I agree with you about Milne's tenure, it has been disappointing. Although I suspect Ian Donald would have done a far worse job. Not that they were the only two possibilities of course. The worst decision of his spell being the RDS. How a developer could look at that stand and think that it was a good idea is staggering - a complete lack of foresight. At some point there must have been a plan in place for the remaining 3 stands, so what happened to it? It has - potentially - meant that we have to vacate our actual home and move outside the city to which the club belongs. That's staggeringly incompetent and wildly negligent in terms of a responsible fitba team chairmanship. If you'd said that, that would be our future, to a dons fan 30 years ago they'd think you were a fucking idiot. Nobody could possibly make such a shite move for the club? But it's happened. However, from a business perspective, it probably doesn't look too bad. The relevant major shareholders haven't really lost out over the years and there's still a valuable land asset retained.

[rocket_scientist]

The most improbable occurrence would be that Milne “dipped into his pocket” for the benefit of the club. This is extremely unlikely for a number of reasons and yet some posters believe, without any proof whatsoever that he has “paid the wages” for this player or otherwise played the generous benefactor.

 

One man put this club from the black into the red by financial mismanagement on a gross scale. The continuous hiring of non-productive staff and the excessive “professional fees” being dished out all mounted up to living beyond our means and the “product” - as he called it - suffered massively.

 

Once the spending outstripped the revenue, who was there to “help” clean up the mess he created? Who loaned us money at two per cent over base? Milne profited from our debt with regular interest payments going from our turnover into his pocket. These are all facts, indisputable facts. There are many reasons for him not being the benefactor that some claim but the biggest one of all is that his supposed donations are invisible in the accounts.

[TheDeeDon]

Those percentages don't ring a bell, I don't remember the Donalds being given that shareholding. If they had, I think it would have had to been offered to other investors, as it would surely have diluted their holding?

 

I don't suppose it matters, just interesting.

 

I agree with you about Milne's tenure, it has been disappointing. Although I suspect Ian Donald would have done a far worse job. Not that they were the only two possibilities of course. The worst decision of his spell being the RDS. How a developer could look at that stand and think that it was a good idea is staggering - a complete lack of foresight. At some point there must have been a plan in place for the remaining 3 stands, so what happened to it? It has - potentially - meant that we have to vacate our actual home and move outside the city to which the club belongs. That's staggeringly incompetent and wildly negligent in terms of a responsible fitba team chairmanship. If you'd said that, that would be our future, to a dons fan 30 years ago they'd think you were a fucking idiot. Nobody could possibly make such a shite move for the club? But it's happened. However, from a business perspective, it probably doesn't look too bad. The relevant major shareholders haven't really lost out over the years and there's still a valuable land asset retained.

 

IIRC - The plan was to develop the the RDS then the Mainer straight after it, the other Merkie would have been done once finances were available after the initial developments, Dick Donald was still the chairman at the time this was announced and I have a very vague memory of the new main stand having a set of twin towers, a bit like Wembley. THis was around1990

 

 

[February1971]

Those percentages don't ring a bell, I don't remember the Donalds being given that shareholding. If they had, I think it would have had to been offered to other investors, as it would surely have diluted their holding?

 

I don't suppose it matters, just interesting.

 

I agree with you about Milne's tenure, it has been disappointing. Although I suspect Ian Donald would have done a far worse job. Not that they were the only two possibilities of course. The worst decision of his spell being the RDS. How a developer could look at that stand and think that it was a good idea is staggering - a complete lack of foresight. At some point there must have been a plan in place for the remaining 3 stands, so what happened to it? It has - potentially - meant that we have to vacate our actual home and move outside the city to which the club belongs. That's staggeringly incompetent and wildly negligent in terms of a responsible fitba team chairmanship. If you'd said that, that would be our future, to a dons fan 30 years ago they'd think you were a fucking idiot. Nobody could possibly make such a shite move for the club? But it's happened. However, from a business perspective, it probably doesn't look too bad. The relevant major shareholders haven't really lost out over the years and there's still a valuable land asset retained.

 

I read somewhere that the Donalds were offered a place on the board for their generosity but refused it, so were given a 10% shareholding each.

Agree completely regarding the RDS, why build it unless there is a plan to do the other 3 stands.

 

Kingsford is not ideal by any means but I fear it has got to the stage where it really needs to happen.

 

 

[donsdaft]

I dinnae ken onything aboot it.

 

Now, although most of you will wish I stopped there, I will waffle on a wee bitty mair.

 

 

 

1/ Rich people very very seldom GIVE money, buying shares is a gamble though and we all have to be thankful  that somebody wants to convert their riches from one kind of paper to another.

 

2/ What I think Milne did was go guarantor at the bank during the very lean years.

You try telling your wife that you've remortgaged the house to help your fitba team.

It's all very well looking in retrospect at the situation, the Dons didn't go bust.

They could have done though, I'm sure there was a club went bust but I can't remember their name.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

If you believe what is written Milne is worth in excess of £100M.  Investors in Scottish football clubs, Celtic aside, do not make money.  In almost all instances their loans are either written off or converted into shares like Milne's which are effectively worthless because the original investment will never be recouped  The guy, like all of us seems to me to be someone who genuinely wants the best for the club and has put in some money, however much and a lot of time to try to make that happen.

 

Anything he stands to get back, financially, from being involved as dons chairman is a drop in the ocean compared to what he is already worth.  Spare me the old story about he is only involved so he can build flats on the Pittodrie site.  I don't think selling a few flats would make a lot of difference to Milne's bank balance.

 

The suggestion that the fans paid considerably more for their shares than Milne did is complete made up SHITE.  The £4.4M which was converted into shares in 2014 cost him £1.15 per share compared to 10p per share that others paid.

 

Yes, some good decisions and some bad decisions have been made along the way as with ALL clubs.

 

Every club of late in Scotland has had difficulties in balancing the books because their is no money in the Scottish game any more.  In my time following the Dons so many clubs have either died (the oldco), nearly died (hearts, motherwell, celtic, dundee, partick) or had sever financial issues, none of which have happened at Pittodrie.

 

The club now appears to be on the up after years of struggle.  The team is regularly at the top end of the table again and hopefully the new stadium can materialise.

 

I am all for debate but why can't folk be a bit more positive about what we have as a club rather than looking for the bad points all the time.

 

 

 

 

[ayrshire_don74]

think your arguement loses a lot of credibility with the opening startement

[rocket_scientist]

think your arguement loses a lot of credibility with the opening startement

 

I think he lost a lot of credibility long before that. And after it, he loses more...

 

 

In almost all instances their loans are either written off or converted into shares like Milne's which are effectively worthless because the original investment will never be recouped 

 

What the fuck are you talking about? Which clubs are these that constitute "almost all instances"?

 

Who lends money to then write it off? Who lends money to guaranteed loss-making enterprises?

 

Why are shares "worthless" and why will original investments never be recouped?

 

 

The guy, like all of us seems to me to be someone who genuinely wants the best for the club

 

You know him well then? He "genuinely wants what's best for the club"? How the fuck do you know this? The evidence over 20+ years suggests the complete opposite.

 

 

and has put in some money, however much and a lot of time to try to make that happen.

 

So you keep on saying but SHOW ME THE MONEY. How much has he put in? How did he do it?

 

 

Anything he stands to get back, financially, from being involved as dons chairman is a drop in the ocean compared to what he is already worth.  Spare me the old story about he is only involved so he can build flats on the Pittodrie site.  I don't think selling a few flats would make a lot of difference to Milne's bank balance.

 

It was never about HIM building flats at Pittodrie. Could you ever imagine a bigger conflict of interest than that?

 

The man is a property developer. The building of a new stadium and the disposal of an existing one, the only significant asset on our books, are deals that involve many tens of millions of pounds. You don't think that he personally will be benefiting from the various deals and how they're structured?

 

 

The suggestion that the fans paid considerably more for their shares than Milne did is complete made up SHITE.  The £4.4M which was converted into shares in 2014 cost him £1.15 per share compared to 10p per share that others paid.

 

At the original share issues, we all paid considerably more than £1.15 per share, almost 3,000 of us. You're speaking shite because you don't know the facts. Do you understand business though? Milne paid how much? How much money did he actually lend the club, how much interest did he get - straight from OUR pockets into his remember - what was the outstanding balance, how much did he convert to shares and how many additional shares did he get in the last transaction? Much more revealing would be if you told us how much he paid for his original 28.6%? And if you're really interested in the whole story, how much did he charge us for the RDS, how much of the grant money did he receive directly, what was his GP on the construction and how much of the balance outstanding was converted to shares?

 

 

Yes, some good decisions and some bad decisions have been made along the way as with ALL clubs.

 

Happy clapping, platitudinal garbage, made from a man with the wool over his eyes or with a surreptitious agenda.

 

 

Every club of late in Scotland has had difficulties in balancing the books because their is no money in the Scottish game any more.  In my time following the Dons so many clubs have either died (the oldco), nearly died (hearts, motherwell, celtic, dundee, partick) or had sever financial issues, none of which have happened at Pittodrie.

 

The club now appears to be on the up after years of struggle.  The team is regularly at the top end of the table again and hopefully the new stadium can materialise.

 

I am all for debate but why can't folk be a bit more positive about what we have as a club rather than looking for the bad points all the time.

 

There IS money in the game. There always has been, to varying degrees. You choose to see Milne as being good for the club. Many of us disagree. You possibly got sucked in by the cynical and deliberately-engineered "fucking penalties" line, You thought it was spontaneously uttered. We have NOTHING to be positive about. The team are full of journeymen who have no hope of producing good consistent fitba, let alone winning the league and we have thousands of people staying away. We have alienated the next generation. Do you know the average age demographics of football fans in the UK and how this has been changing, alarmingly? Don't you think this affects not just us, but the market we operate in, a market that has been incredibly mismanaged by buffoons at the top for many, many decades? Scottish football may have been so badly damaged by this ineptitude and self-serving greed - on many different levels, whether self aggrandisement like the officials and administrators or whether good old-fashioned greed like Milne - that we may never recover.

 

You crack on in your bubble though.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

We have NOTHING to be positive about.

 

Seemingly not 

 

 

[rocket_scientist]

Seemingly not 

 

I don't find it funny actually, that a football club I once loved turning to shit. Fortunately it doesn't affect me, my life, my wife and my children, things that are genuinely important to me although we'll be meeting two of my kids over the next few days in London and I'm proud that he declared he would not be supporting any English team when he moved there last month because like me, he's only got one team.

 

The greek masks remind me. You may find it hilarious but I find it very tragic that ignorant people, stupid cunts who know fuck all about fuck all, put their trust in the establishment, perceived or otherwise. I'm not talking directly to you here but there is one on every forum who believes everything the government, TV, media and newspapers tell them, in the false assumption that they wouldn't lie.

 

Milne lied in the AGM at the Capitol 21 years ago. We didn't know it was a lie at the time and we were all excited to have him as vice chairman, next to the hapless and unfortunate Ian Donald. But the facts in the last three decades can't be ignored. He is ruining this club and pursuing a single agenda and it's a very different one to what the fans want, for many of whom, AFC is a very big part of their lives.

 

I find greed disgusting personally but I find deception and lies particularly unforgivable, especially the exploitation of the vulnerable. The loyalty is blind... for now, but one day the thick cunts will see what's been going on, probably when it's too late as far as AFC, and most of Scottish football, is concerned.

[February1971]

If you believe what is written Milne is worth in excess of £100M.  Investors in Scottish football clubs, Celtic aside, do not make money.  In almost all instances their loans are either written off or converted into shares like Milne's which are effectively worthless because the original investment will never be recouped  The guy, like all of us seems to me to be someone who genuinely wants the best for the club and has put in some money, however much and a lot of time to try to make that happen.

 

Anything he stands to get back, financially, from being involved as dons chairman is a drop in the ocean compared to what he is already worth.  Spare me the old story about he is only involved so he can build flats on the Pittodrie site.  I don't think selling a few flats would make a lot of difference to Milne's bank balance.

 

The suggestion that the fans paid considerably more for their shares than Milne did is complete made up SHITE.  The £4.4M which was converted into shares in 2014 cost him £1.15 per share compared to 10p per share that others paid.

 

Yes, some good decisions and some bad decisions have been made along the way as with ALL clubs.

 

Every club of late in Scotland has had difficulties in balancing the books because their is no money in the Scottish game any more.  In my time following the Dons so many clubs have either died (the oldco), nearly died (hearts, motherwell, celtic, dundee, partick) or had sever financial issues, none of which have happened at Pittodrie.

 

The club now appears to be on the up after years of struggle.  The team is regularly at the top end of the table again and hopefully the new stadium can materialise.

 

I am all for debate but why can't folk be a bit more positive about what we have as a club rather than looking for the bad points all the time.

 

 

 

 

 

On top after years of struggle? Believe me it will be very easy for this club to go back to the dark days.

 

Why? because of the mess of the club off the field.

 

When McInnes leaves who will take over and continue to get the club 2nd 3rd place finishes?

With Milnes track record of recruiting managers we can easily fall back to where we were.

What happens if Kingsford falls on its arse?

I'm sorry but since Milne took over I'm struggling to see much progress, either on or off the pitch.

The last 4 years can become a distant memory very quickly.

The debt cleared largely by the Donalds was a huge boost for the club.

I am not a fan of taking the stadium out of the city but feel it really needs to happen

 

Do you become Chairman of a football Club to make money?

The very least I would have expected in this day would be to have good training facilities for the players.

 

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

Thank Christ you boys are not involved in motivating the team eh.  We'd be doomed.

 

Could the next manager not turn out to be even better than the current one? 

 

Could the move to the new stadium not end up benefiting the club both financially and on the playing side?

 

Yes, maybe I am guilty of looking at the good side of things and reading some of the negative drivel on this forum, I would prefer to stay that way.

 

The way I see it, the club are debt free, six points off the top of the league, enjoying one of the best calendar years of results in recent times and have plans for both a new training ground and new stadium with quite a bit of financial backing already assured.

 

It's not really that bad is it?

[donsdaft]

It is if they move from our spiritual home to some god forsaken field near Westhill.

 

Remember, once they've done this dreadful thing we're fucked if we want to move back.

 

 

 

 

Will Westhill United get into the Highland League or will it be juniors?

[February1971]

Thank Christ you boys are not involved in motivating the team eh.  We'd be doomed.

 

Could the next manager not turn out to be even better than the current one? 

 

Could the move to the new stadium not end up benefiting the club both financially and on the playing side?

 

Yes, maybe I am guilty of looking at the good side of things and reading some of the negative drivel on this forum, I would prefer to stay that way.

 

The way I see it, the club are debt free, six points off the top of the league, enjoying one of the best calendar years of results in recent times and have plans for both a new training ground and new stadium with quite a bit of financial backing already assured.

 

It's not really that bad is it?

 

You sound like a politician min, a lot of words without saying anything.

 

My issue is with Milne and what he has actually done to progress the club since he has been chairman.

We have already established the Donalds bailed the club out with their generosity.

I know about the 4.4m owed to SMG, which Milne traded for a bigger shareholding

 

What I want to know is:

1: what has Milne done to progress the club?

2: what is your opinion on the lack of training facilities and why ?