Straw that broke the camels back?

[manc_don]

Appreciate that this is a fairly negative thread to start, but I didn't want it to spill into the Match Threads.

 

For me, the answer is yes, I think it's the culmination of the defeats, the manor of them and the fact that we have never learned from any of the mistakes.  The cup final was clearly a brain fart from DM because it's the only time we've played the right way against them and surprise surprise, it nearly worked.  As someone else mentioned in the motherwell thread, it was almost accepted by most that Celtic were having a great season, although again, a lot on here were pissed off we didn't try anything against them.  The frustration has also boiled over in that it's not just septic we're losing to now, it's the hunco, Hivs etc...and we've now lost second place despite originally having a sizable lead over the hun, probably for the season. A pattern has formed and it's clear that DM hasn't the intelligence to reverse it.

 

Thoughts?  Is there a way back for him?  I'd say only a SC win will do anything to change most people's minds. And even then, we shouldn't forget what's gone before.

[TheDeeDon]

Every manager reaches their sell by date and McInnes has certainly done this to my eyes, he is starting to stink now.

 

For me it's not just results, but our first team squad is fairly shyte and doesn't give us options to change things around. The lack of youth development is frightening with the Rogers situation a clear example of DM not being interested in our youth, people will point to McKenna, but I honestly don't think that was meant to happen.

 

It's always a risk to change manager, but that shouldn't stop us from trying, this is when the faceless guys behind the scenes on large salaries should be earning their corn, it should have happened when McInnes made it clear he was interested in the Rangers job, there should have been no way back for him at that point, but they are more interested in Milne's vanity project at Kingsford than what is happening on the pitch.

 

He has done a decent job at Aberdeen, but lets not kid ourselves he is our Savior and bigger than the club, which a lot of people seem to believe. If he carries on he will end up like JC did in becoming a figure of ridicule and despite my ramblings I don't think he deserves that.

[Ten Caat]

Afraid yes there must be a parting of ways come season's end at the latest. I'd prefer that he resigns thus allowing him to leave with his head held high. Indeed there is once more talk that the West Brom gig is likely to be up for grabs shortly and this could offer an easy way out which suits both parties. However if he is still here by late June and showing no sign of resigning then Wiggy has to give him his jotters.

[ayrshire_don74]

The most recent transfer window is an indicator of several things. Firstly the managers assessment of player capabilities is wanting.

The fact he thought lower league detritus was worth putting on v Celtic sums him up, he is devoid of any critical thinking its the beginning of the end. The young African lad is hopeless and does not improve the team. Which unfortunately has been a theme of Mcinnes tenure. I refer back to my post re his signings.

 

In his 5 years here count the marquee signings, the ones that improve the team, I will use permanent signings as the reliance on loan deals reeks of short termism and we are becoming more reliant on them it seems.

 

Flood/Robson (for 18 months)

Shinnie

Lewis

Rooney

Logan (apart from last 18 months)

 

 

Its not a great strike rate.

 

I would also posit that the increase in loan signings and footballing detritus (Maynard/Tansey) maybe linked to a managed decline of the club over the next few seasons to pay for stadium....

 

Anyone got Dave Cormacks number?

 

 

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

I certainly am not advocating DM getting bulleted, he wouldn't deserve that yet

 

However if he is still here by late June and showing no sign of resigning then Wiggy has to give him his jotters.

 

What a difference a week makes eh? 

[BobbyBiscuit]

I'd been on the fence with him for a while - had Hayes and McGinn not both left last summer I wouldn't have batted an eyelid had DM joined Sunderland, but felt it was important the manager stayed in light of losing our two best players at that time.  I felt that would have been too much for the club to repair at the one time.

 

The huns double header at the end of Nov/start of Dec is when I lost all faith in him. I've made the points before about him signing players on their name rather than how they fit into our squad and I think this is his biggest failing after the bottle jobs against the huns and tims. 

 

He has one way of playing and that's it. Was refreshing to hear Willie Miller and Michael Stewart say on radio that as soon as McInnes tries anything out of his normal tactics we're an absolute shambles. Most of us have been saying it for ages, nice to hear the media have spotted it too.

 

He won't resign. He won't get sacked. I don't see anyone that would interest him coming in for him now, certainly not West Brom. And while that's the case, we won't progress, and possibly set ourselves back.

 

Winning the Scottish Cup would be amazing, and I would dearly love for it to happen - but the bottom line is that with the OF still in the cup, we probably have next to no chance of winning it.

[Tyrant]

I'd been on the fence with him for a while - had Hayes and McGinn not both left last summer I wouldn't have batted an eyelid had DM joined Sunderland, but felt it was important the manager stayed in light of losing our two best players at that time.  I felt that would have been too much for the club to repair at the one time.

 

The huns double header at the end of Nov/start of Dec is when I lost all faith in him. I've made the points before about him signing players on their name rather than how they fit into our squad and I think this is his biggest failing after the bottle jobs against the huns and tims. 

 

He has one way of playing and that's it. Was refreshing to hear Willie Miller and Michael Stewart say on radio that as soon as McInnes tries anything out of his normal tactics we're an absolute shambles. Most of us have been saying it for ages, nice to hear the media have spotted it too.

 

He won't resign. He won't get sacked. I don't see anyone that would interest him coming in for him now, certainly not West Brom. And while that's the case, we won't progress, and possibly set ourselves back.

 

Winning the Scottish Cup would be amazing, and I would dearly love for it to happen - but the bottom line is that with the OF still in the cup, we probably have next to no chance of winning it.

 

 

Is there really much point in beating Killie since there's a strong chance we'll have to play one of the cheeks in the next round anyway.

[KennyFuckinPowers]

It's a yes from me too.

 

For me, he was the right appointment at the time, he did make us steady and then eventually a very difficult team to play against. But, if we are all being really honest with ourselves, Laszlo was right a few weeks back, we have had no Huns for several years, no Hibs, no Dundee United etc... We were where we should have been at least and he made sure of it.

 

Now they're back, minus the Jutes, and we're regressing. I actually think we are fighting for 3rd spot with Hibs now, the Huns will finish several points ahead of us and we won't beat them this season either. In my opinion, in each of these defeats vs Rangers, Celtic & the more recent one against Hibs, he has not played to our strengths and that really doesn't sit well with me, it's almost as if it's a self admission from him that we don't have a good enough squad. Look at the game we destroyed Hibs, we were pressing, we were sharp and we were getting into very good opportunities, they couldn't live with it, and we fucked them up.

 

It's extremely frustrating. I for one am looking forward to his recruitment in the summer compared to the other clubs around us.

 

Edited to add this, I see he is still going with the " we were so close to getting the result we wanted and that it's the first time we have had more attempts at goal than Celtic " I am fairly certain that is complete pish, Woodman had 3 or 4 saves in the first half alone to their keepers 0. Stuff like that boils my piss. I mind we beat Celtic at Parkhead under Calderwood, and we were playing Rangers 3 days later at Ibrox and Jimmy got a bit excited and said we are coming for you Rangers, we got pumped 5-1 and he immediately apologised, acknowledged he got it completely wrong and learned from his error. Has McInnes ever took the blame for any of our defeats?

[Lencarl]

Is there really much point in beating Killie since there's a strong chance we'll have to play one of the cheeks in the next round anyway.

 

 

You could also say why play in the Premiership as we are never going to win it.

 

Why bother playing European matches that there is no chance on winning a Cup

 

We are in the same boat as 99.9% of all the football clubs playing today who have no chance of winning anything in football.

 

Sad to think about it but life without football would be unthinkable or would it

 

 

 

[Sand dan Glokta]

I’m trying to be as level headed as I can, but 0pts out of 18 and 1 goal scored is very hard to get over. Rivals are rivals for a reason; plus the manner in which we’ve played in all those games is hard to get over.

 

At the start of this season we would probably all of taken 2nd place after Xmas, despite the team rarely playing well. We had lost 3 of our first team players and a major re-build was needed. But now, with the benefit of hindsight, the season has been a bit of a shambles.  His head has been turned too many times this season and it has affected both his team and his planning. There is no way you carry on at the same level at your job while poking around a new opportunity. I would imagine a lot of the loans have come out of his short sightedness to see out the season in case he left, and through necessity of time – it doesn’t surprise me that Devlin was bought for next season once all of the links away from the club disappeared. The lack of actual players for the first team is also a glaring problem. He very rarely signs someone to come straight into the first team; he loves to have a ‘squad’ and that isn’t going to improve us toward the 'next step'.

 

Then there is the glaring issue of not beating those around us. We’re in danger of not finishing in a European place (which would hit his budget for next season) and as has been mentioned, I doubt he’ll ever be sacked – although WBA may look to him if they go down and there’s also rumours he may replace Pardew if he’s binned.

I would imagine missing Europe would massively hit the club in the pocket both on and off the park and it would be interesting to see how the relationship with Milne might change if that was the case.

 

Something has to give with McInnes and its solely dependent on how long he sees himself at the club now. This season hasn’t shown him to be capable of changing his ways, so he has to do what he does ‘well’ even better – last year we went on that great run over Xmas into new year with only one enforced player change coming through a suspension.

Even from his 2nd season onwards he has messed around with the team too much, until he got his balance and kept it – need we be reminded of not starting Rooney, only for him to still make 20 goals per season over 3 years. If he does this, then we have a punchers chance in the cup and in finishing 2nd. However, I personally feel that he’ll always try to be ‘more clever’ than the opposition manager and this will always be his downfall in big games – for some reason this has been majorly amplified in the big games this season. Perhaps the players in previous years could ‘play’ the way he wants over a shorter period of time, or the teams around us figured out hitting us early was how to beat us. It could also be vanity in thinking he needs to impress those looking at him as a potential candidate.

 

The Scottish cup final last year almost worked because he played the way we normally do - with speed, intensity and counter attacking when we needed to. But he then threw it away when he took off McGinn for AoC at 75 mins to ‘Control the game’ and that effectively removed the outlet ball with pace. Wright needed to come on to keep the tempo up, but he wanted to keep it tight to ‘see out’ the game  – another one of his obsessions and failures this year in big games; making us compact and tight, which always fails to work.

 

Personally I don’t want him sacked, as it would cost a fortune and he does have it in him to produce a good team if he keeps the faith. I also don’t trust the board to take in anyone better, let alone at the crunch time of the season - Clarke wants to go back down South and he’s the only real candidate in my eyes. When McInnes leaves I hope it’s with a decent platform for the next manager to take on – like what McInnes inherited from Brown. Rebuild after rebuild every season is something I don’t want to see again, that is heading back to the dark times and is more detrimental than who's in charge. 

 

[ayrshire_don74]

beware the ides of March this is when the decline usually sets in under Del ?

[Ten Caat]

What a difference a week makes eh? 

 

Unfortunately yes. The manner of defeats by the spoonburners and dhims has left me with the conclusion that he hasn't got what it takes to mount even a token challenge at the top end of the league. Even if we win the Cup I still think he should go. In view of his 5 years service and improving us from where we were I would still rather he goes of his own volition and should be allowed to see the season out.

[RicoS321]

Meh, end of the season see how the land lies.

 

Our baseline expectation is 3rd place and two semi-finals, or one final with a good draw, or one cup win with an even better draw. A good draw being if we don't get either of the two teams who pay more in wages than us.

 

On one of the other threads recently I attached the study done in Engurland between 2001 and 2012 (and there's no reason to suggest Scotland is different in this regard - in fact probably worse given 4 games a season) that there is a 90% correlation between player salaries (total) and league position. That is quite staggering. It means that we have a 90% chance of finishing third place this season. It also means that only 10% of that positioning can be affected by improved (or shite opposition = -10%) management.

 

I don't believe McInnes does/can get that additional 10% (or even close - very few managers do), and think he's pretty much bang on that baseline expectation. Similarly, I don't think he'll get us below that baseline either. He's steady.

 

For me, most of his issues lie in the transfer market and I think a lot of his tactical decisions would be covered up if he'd got that part right. I'd argue that's the case for both Rodgers and Murty - and in general is supported by the evidence of salary versus league position. In Murty's case, the introduction of Murphy, Goss, Martin and so on will be the buffer they require. Out of our season's signings, zero have been successful apart from loanee Christie and known quantity McGinn. Had we got, say, Moult instead of May and GMS then we'd be having an entirely different season with some of the losses turned into draws/wins and a better league cup and european performance. Had we got an actual central midfielder instead of Tansey then we'd also be better off. Our poor transfer showing has meant that we've had absolutely zero leeway in terms of tactics and that's totally evident when we play better teams.

 

The problem for me is that transfers are season specific and we could get lucky next season (I think Devlin is a good start FWIW) and that could improve McInnes' return and belief in his squad. I think that if we don't replace McInnes, then we should at least look to beef up the player scouting/acquisition team as it's clearly an area he is pap in and needs support. We can't afford another season of very bad value in the transfer market. We have a lot of key purchases to make again too. As ayrshire points out, there have only been a handful of successes.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

Even if we win the Cup I still think he should go.

 

That's just mental Ten Caat.  We've got the best team we've had for the last 25 years and you'd be happy to just bin the manager.

 

The Fergie era aside (which will not happen again), McInnes has won more games than any Dons manager since the 1950s.

 

I'd take a few dodgy performances against the old firm over the relegation play-offs again.

[BobbyBiscuit]

I think Devlin is a positive signing IF he gets back to where he should be in terms of fitness.  It is a gamble however, especially giving him a healthy contract.

 

Rico - were you not of the opinion that his strike rate on transfers was as we should expect? (apologies if mistaken identity/theory)

 

 

[Ramperbamper]

Meh, end of the season see how the land lies.

 

Our baseline expectation is 3rd place and two semi-finals, or one final with a good draw, or one cup win with an even better draw. A good draw being if we don't get either of the two teams who pay more in wages than us.

 

On one of the other threads recently I attached the study done in Engurland between 2001 and 2012 (and there's no reason to suggest Scotland is different in this regard - in fact probably worse given 4 games a season) that there is a 90% correlation between player salaries (total) and league position. That is quite staggering. It means that we have a 90% chance of finishing third place this season. It also means that only 10% of that positioning can be affected by improved (or shite opposition = -10%) management.

 

I don't believe McInnes does/can get that additional 10% (or even close - very few managers do), and think he's pretty much bang on that baseline expectation. Similarly, I don't think he'll get us below that baseline either. He's steady.

 

For me, most of his issues lie in the transfer market and I think a lot of his tactical decisions would be covered up if he'd got that part right. I'd argue that's the case for both Rodgers and Murty - and in general is supported by the evidence of salary versus league position. In Murty's case, the introduction of Murphy, Goss, Martin and so on will be the buffer they require. Out of our season's signings, zero have been successful apart from loanee Christie and known quantity McGinn. Had we got, say, Moult instead of May and GMS then we'd be having an entirely different season with some of the losses turned into draws/wins and a better league cup and european performance. Had we got an actual central midfielder instead of Tansey then we'd also be better off. Our poor transfer showing has meant that we've had absolutely zero leeway in terms of tactics and that's totally evident when we play better teams.

 

The problem for me is that transfers are season specific and we could get lucky next season (I think Devlin is a good start FWIW) and that could improve McInnes' return and belief in his squad. I think that if we don't replace McInnes, then we should at least look to beef up the player scouting/acquisition team as it's clearly an area he is pap in and needs support. We can't afford another season of very bad value in the transfer market. We have a lot of key purchases to make again too. As ayrshire points out, there have only been a handful of successes.

 

Agree with the jist of this.

 

The results and performances this season against the bigots is a huge concern, but for me it's a massive blot in his copybook rather than a sackable offence. He's shown he can beat them before, my theory is that he has less faith in this set of players than last season's squad. I think he knows we aren't good enough to go toe to toe with them and Sunday was simply us being set up not to let them get in behind. That again points to transfer dealings which haven't worked.

 

The fact that Christie, while a cracking player for us, is on loan from Celtic and we know in advance we're not getting him in those big games is telling, and sends out the wrong message. Unsustainable, and we need to either sign him permanently or move on.

 

In general though, I think he's a good manager and he's got enough credit to get the chance to build another team.

[BobbyBiscuit]

That's just mental Ten Caat.  We've got the best team we've had for the last 25 years and you'd be happy to just bin the manager.

 

The Fergie era aside (which will not happen again), McInnes has won more games than any Dons manager since the 1950s.

 

I'd take a few dodgy performances against the old firm over the relegation play-offs again.

 

Everyone would.  But I don't think means we have to stop progressing.  When progress stops it's only a matter of time before you start regressing. We are at best stagnating. Regression is on it's way if it's not here already.

 

The fact he's been better than the other ineptitudes we've hired over that period doesn't mean we have to stick with him forever. 

 

Being honest, how many pumpings, how many utterly lifeless, directionless, spineless performances against the Old Firm would it take for you to say enough is enough? 

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

We’re also not many players off of a title challenge.

 

with the benefit of hindsight, the season has been a bit of a shambles.  Rebuild after rebuild every season is something I don’t want to see again, that is heading back to the dark times

 

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

Being honest, how many pumpings, how many utterly lifeless, directionless, spineless performances against the Old Firm would it take for you to say enough is enough?

 

I think we just need a bit of patience Bob.  It's one year where the performances in the bigger games have been short of what is expected but McInnes in my view has built up enough credit over the previous years that he should be given the benefit of the doubt and be allowed another crack at it before we write him off.

 

 

 

[Ramperbamper]

Being honest, how many pumpings, how many utterly lifeless, directionless, spineless performances against the Old Firm would it take for you to say enough is enough?

 

Based upon you saying you lost faith after the Sevco defeats in December, then your answer would be 3? If you go further back than that then you need to take into account the win at Ibrox and the fighting performance in the Scottish Cup final.

 

Let's also not ignore at his results against the other 9 teams. To do otherwise plays into the narrative that we only care about games against the bigot brothers.

 

Sensible to give him another chance in the summer to recruit better, and to push on again.

[RicoS321]

I think Devlin is a positive signing IF he gets back to where he should be in terms of fitness.  It is a gamble however, especially giving him a healthy contract.

 

Rico - were you not of the opinion that his strike rate on transfers was as we should expect? (apologies if mistaken identity/theory)

 

Nah, it was far more nuanced than that min....

 

Basically, I think he should be getting a 50% return on good (or good enough) players and it's unfair to expect anything more. Up until this season I thought he'd just about got there. My issue has always been the glaring errors when signing players that he should know are not good enough, such as Tansey, Maynard, Goodwillie, Storey etc. These are easy mistakes to cut out. If we exclude those - which you obviously wouldn't - then he's still doing okay, with the massive caveat and generosity of counting May and GMS as decent signings. I think they both could prove good (not amazing, but first team regulars). They aren't value for money at the moment and I think they are the difference between us having/not a good season. Still plenty of time for them to turn that round.

 

I've also said that we should cut him a bit of slack in January because it's difficult to get season-changing signings without sinking a fortune (or trading insolvently like the huns).

 

Overall, I'm pretty apprehensive about letting him out with the kitty in the summer again, but far better clubs than us have managers who don't have the ultimate/only say in these things and I think that is a strategy that should work for us. McInnes identifies areas where he needs players and the recruitment team identify the best targets and a consensus is reached with the manager (rather than McInnes arbitrarily deciding he likes the look o thon Tansey). Lennon's Celtic days had this approach, and they were reasonably successful at picking up good players.

[ayrshire_don74]

I dont think Mcinnes has got anywhere near 50% return on signings and my view on that are signings that improve the team

[Ten Caat]

That's just mental Ten Caat.  We've got the best team we've had for the last 25 years and you'd be happy to just bin the manager.

 

The Fergie era aside (which will not happen again), McInnes has won more games than any Dons manager since the 1950s.

 

I'd take a few dodgy performances against the old firm over the relegation play-offs again.

 

I really don't think it will be an issue as to win the Cup we are going to have to face at least one of the cheeks in the final and quite possibly both if we draw the other in the semi. I'd like to think that we would have a bit of a chance against sevco but if it transpires we face the dhims then i fully expect yet another pumping. To actually win the Cup would really take us to have 9 players performing excellently and the other 2 performing very well, or  the other team having a really bad day at the office allied to an injury crisis.

 

Lets face it if we were in the final we would have Maynard on the bench. Sevco or Celtic would have him cleaning out the training ground toilets.....

[baggy89]

There is a part of me that is pleased that he is staying, better the devil you know.

 

There was a part of me when, resigned to him going, was a little excited that a new manager would bring fresh ideas and impetus.

 

Now he's staying I'm pleased. I wanted him when Calderwood was sacked and was pretty worried in the summer during the whole Sunderland month.

 

But;

 

This is the second time in six months we have been through this and both times it has had a negative impact on the club. In the summer it put us behind in our recruitment and this time has impacted on our form and thus our league position. That cannot happen again. There needs to be genuine commitment, not sound bites.

 

The two days of not turning up to work following the refusal of our board for the huns to officially speak to McInnes stinks, and questions need to be addressed regarding this. This is not forgive and forget regardless of how funny it is that he's not going there.

 

I hope, that if nothing else, McInnes has a commitment from our board for additional funds for strengthening the team.

 

I also hope that there is renewed focus and an admittance that his summer recruitment has not been the best along with the drive to correct this in January.

 

It'll take a minimum of second and/or the Scottish Cup along with points from both celtic and sevco to put it right in my head.

 

January was a disappointment. I can accept what Rico says, that it is difficult. Can't help feeling that finance may well have been wasted on Woodman that might have been used elsewhere, though. Cosgrove has to be some kind of sweetener on another deal.

 

We're now 2 games down in our 4-6 games against the sevco &  the tims and still no closer to laying a glove on either of them. To compound this we've also witnessed a bottle job against Hibs.

 

It's not looking good. There needs to be an upturn in performances, using the squad he has now, and that starts with the mindset from the top down...

[BobbyBiscuit]

Based upon you saying you lost faith after the Sevco defeats in December, then your answer would be 3?

 

No, no it wouldn't. It's based on many factors, as you probably know.