Straw that broke the camels back?

[BobbyBiscuit]

I think we just need a bit of patience Bob.  It's one year where the performances in the bigger games have been short of what is expected but McInnes in my view has built up enough credit over the previous years that he should be given the benefit of the doubt and be allowed another crack at it before we write him off.

 

That's fair enough. I can understand people wanting to give him that bit more time because he improved us so much when he first came in.  My patience was going after his reluctance to push us for the league title a couple of years ago - not replacing Ward in January and going with Scott Brown whom he had already decided wasn't good enough to be our no.1 from the season's start, but when we were in with a chance of the league we bizarrely went with Brown.

 

Then last season, the LC final followed swiftly by the similar performance at Ibrox the week later was hugely disappointing. I thought he'd learned from them with the win at Ibrox and the performance in the SC Final - we lost but we had a go, i think we all accept that more than not having a go at all.

 

It's not because it's the gruesome twosome, it's because if we want to achieve anything these are the games we have to do better in. The fact it's the same story pretty much every time as well is alarming, he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

It's not because it's the gruesome twosome, it's because if we want to achieve anything these are the games we have to do better in.

 

Aye you do speak some sense Bobby.  Got to say if we were facing a cup semi against the huns and a possible final against the other mob or vice versa it would be difficult to be optimistic about the chances o lifting the cup given the recent record against them.

 

I suppose having to beat both of them along the way to winning a cup has always been a long shot mind and you are always relying on the draw to get rid of one of them somewhere along the line.

[manc_don]

I guess my concern is if we give him another summer, do I trust him to make the right signings?  My answer is no, we'll get padded out with absolute horseshite like Maynard.  There are positions he hasn't addressed for seasons, which was fine when the league didn't have teams like Hearts, Hibs and Hunco. Now they're back these failings are being exploited. The short term-ism with the loans is also concerning.

 

Then the flip side is that as someone else said, I don't want to get into the habit of having a managerial merry go round again.  It didn't work then and it won't now.  But do we trust the board to make the right choice?  Hopefully with new blood and influence we might have a better chance.

 

The overriding concern is that it feels like we're going backwards and I haven't the faith in him to arrest the situation. Resignation would be the only option, otherwise, make sure if he's identified someone of real quality, the board cannot fuck about like they did with Moult.  Rico is right, that is a signing that probably would have changed how the season would have panned out.  I think that's what hurts the most, we can pretty much see what could have been.

[LA-Don]

Good thread.

 

Look back to where we were. We were shite. McInnes has been lucky, that's a fact. He steadied our ship and, to his credit, established a team that consistently over the last few years has beaten the other shite in our league. That shite included everyone except Celtic for a few seasons. Nobody can argue that. DM's a likeable guy who established a feelgood factor. Now his coaching is being challenged and he's failing.

 

The huns are back being decent, Lennon has Hibs doing well-ish, and even Levein has Hearts somewhat credible. This is the first real challenge to McInnes. How has he handled it? His tactics against Celtic have been shite and that has consistently given us nothing against them in the last 3 years (except the Scottish Cup final when we played reasonably well.....but still lost) Now we appear to see these tactics against the other 3 teams. Brutal to watch and minimal points this year against these guys. That's enough games to see coaching style, adjustments etc, and DM has clearly failed. The fact that he spouts shite after the Celtic game is relevant - same argument regardless of performance, what planet is he on?

 

We're now going backwards and top 3 will be tough. Rangers will get stronger. Lennon will get Hibs going. The finger gets pointed straight at Milne - do you see what's happening here? Or is mediocre acceptable? We've been lucky the last few years but it's time for a change for sure. DM won't resign, Milne won't sack him, our only hope is someone comes in for him. But with us on an apparent downward spiral is his credibility and reputation going to take a hit?

 

Summer will see O'Connor, Christie, Maynard, Arneson, Stewart, Nwakali, McLean, Rogers, Ball, and Woodman leave. That's 10 of the first team squad.

 

We're fucked.

[Ten Caat]

Sure whoever is in charge come summer faces a huge rebuilding job but to say we are fucked is a bit OTT. Yes 10 players are leaving but out of those 10 who will we truly miss? I'd posit only Christie (and we might just be able to get Celtic to sell him to us for a reasonable price in the summer) and McLean. Perhaps Arnie too as he is a class act but he only plays around 50% anyway. The other 7 are easily replaceable with players at least as good and hopefully a darned sight better.

 

I wouldn't bank on a top 3 place next season as Hibs will only be stronger, Fartz will also improve. Sevco will be better but on the flipside they could go bust at any time especially with today's court decision. I could accept that if it is a new gaffer in charge and the team steadily improves over the course of the season. However if DM is still in charge then any such leniency is strictly limited to being no worse than 4th at the New Year break and within 5/6 points of the 3rd place team max.

 

 

[LA-Don]

I think fucked is a fair assessment based on what we have, DM's transfer history, and DM's coaching performance with improved domestic competition. We have 10 leaving and we need a left back, a central defender, possibly a right back. Shinnie is our only central midfielder, McGinn is solid, but GMS is hit and miss. Scott Wright appears to becoming as popular as Craig Storie. Do we have a forward we see as our legit number 9?

 

I'd say we have 4 legit players. Lewis, McKenna, Shinnie, and McGinn. Who else is consistently good? You say 7 are easily replaceable or better, what if the 7 are Goodwillie, Maynard, Callum Morris, Josh Parker, Wes Burns, Ryan McLaughlin, and Jeff Monakana? And what if we get good offers for Lewis, McKenna, even Shinnie? While money helps, we've spent that on a lot of shit in recent memory.

 

We've signed players that don't fit our system, and we've seen more long ball and defensive tactics this year. Ugg.

Lastly, I have no faith in youth. We've had ONE (McKenna) come through since DM has been manager.

[BobbyBiscuit]

To be fair to McInnes though, Hibs, Hearts and United were all out the league because they deserved to be so - they were the worst teams in the division for a whole season.  So saying he's had it easy by them not being there isn't really fair. All the other "shite" in the league may well have been shite, but they were better shite than that lot.

[tlg1903]

Firstly, what the actual fuck.  I mean seriously, how can so many of you be speaking like this? 

 

Hang your heads in shame all those using the phrase 'Old Firm' to describe the tims and the tribute act.  That pairing died with the huns........  hard to be be called the old firm when one team is only 5 and half years old.  ICT vs County is an older rivalry ffs.  It's language like that that encourages the idea that they are the same club.  CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!!! etc etc. 

 

Just saying. 

 

McInnes has become something of a conundrum now.  It's clear we have regressed again and the pressure is mounting, Willie Miller being critical on DM's tactics is a very telling one.  Still it's highly unlikely the chairman won't even think about sacking him unless we fail to qualify for europe.  He's also on a long term expensive deal and I suspect thinking about it would be as far as it would go.  Further speculation seems fairly pointless about it at the moment though I completely agree that his position should be up for debate.  One thing I would add is that it's not impossible for him to dig us out of this rut.

 

On the 2 recent defeats I don't think we would have lost either if Shinnie had played.  If there's one benefit of his suspension is that he looked a bit leggy recently though.  He will be very important to us on Sat and given Killie  played yesterday I'm confident of a win and good performance assuming the game goes ahead. 

 

I think the make or break part of our season will be Devlin.  If he settles with McKenna quickly that could be a tremendous partnership and a total game changer.  Our problem this season has been our meekness, it's not a new problem but it's more prominent now we don't have Hayes to bail us out with a goal out of nothing against the better sides.  I think a big reason for this is the overall team and managers lack of confidence in the defence.  The thing is we all know that the defence has been shaky for years.  That Considine is decent enough as long as he's not facing anyone quick but really we need an actual LB.  That logan has been on the decline for the past year and a half and there is no obvious challenge to his position so we need a RB too.  That the midfield is light and has been for ages and we have too many players in positions we don't need and the wage could be better utilised. Reynolds Ball and Maynard  spring to mind here.  I'm sure we could get at least one competent Fb for their wage.  In short the squad management has been very poor but it has been for a while with certain positions which falls at the managers door. 

 

The past season has seen a lot of birds come home to roost, and maybe it is time for new leadership, but there's no chance we will get it anytime soon.  We have to hope that McInnes learns from this, it's the first time he has faced any kind of significant displeasure from the majority of the support which may motivate him to change his ways.

 

 

[LA-Don]

Correct, they deserved to be but the level of play in the league certainly dropped and we benefitted. Or perhaps we over achieved and we’ll be back to bottom 6 again? Regardless, opponents are stronger and can DM keep us as a top 2 team and get us to cup finals. That’s the expectation many have.

[Ten Caat]

The 7 I mentioned as easily replaceable have got us to 3rd in the league with 2nd still a possibility ( becoming remote I accept and 4th place is probably equally as possible) and also with a decent chance of being in a Cup semi. DM's recruitment despite being at best average has therefore produced consistent results over his tenure so I have no doubt if he is still in charge he would get in players at least as good and no worse as those 7 leaving.

 

A new manager obviously is an inherent risk. Hopefully he would prove over the medium to long term better than DM in the recruitment stakes and with better outcomes. Clarke is a safe pair of hands, knows the  English leagues intimately but I fear England is where his true ambitions lie and I fully expect him to be offered a low to mid table Championship club or top end EFL 1 gig within 12 months or sooner. Popcorn teeth has a proven record in Scotland but was dross down south. I believe we would offer a better all round package than he gets at Hivs but he does seem very comfortable there and has the best chief exec in the country working with him. Jack Ross has done fantastically well at St Boo but obv is unproven at a higher level.

 

Anyway I still insist that whoever is in charge, those 7 players will be replaced by others of at least equivalent ability.

[BobbyBiscuit]

Firstly, what the actual fuck.  I mean seriously, how can so many of you be speaking like this? 

 

Hang your heads in shame all those using the phrase 'Old Firm' to describe the tims and the tribute act.  That pairing died with the huns........  hard to be be called the old firm when one team is only 5 and half years old.  ICT vs County is an older rivalry ffs.  It's language like that that encourages the idea that they are the same club.  CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!!! etc etc. 

 

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck.... for as long as those scum fans attach themselves to a vessel playing in blue out of Govan, those two clubs will be known as the Old Firm to me. Fuck all has changed, but I do admire your stoicism!

 

 

 

On the 2 recent defeats I don't think we would have lost either if Shinnie had played.  If there's one benefit of his suspension is that he looked a bit leggy recently though.  He will be very important to us on Sat and given Killie  played yesterday I'm confident of a win and good performance assuming the game goes ahead. 

 

Shinnie has looked leggy and probably did need a rest. He's not been playing well recently and that tiredness has clearly played a part in that and as a result I don't think he'd have made as much of a difference to tip either game our way.

 

 

 

The past season has seen a lot of birds come home to roost, and maybe it is time for new leadership, but there's no chance we will get it anytime soon.  We have to hope that McInnes learns from this, it's the first time he has faced any kind of significant displeasure from the majority of the support which may motivate him to change his ways.

 

I think you're probably right in that apart from the majority being upset.  I still think it'll be the minority, and I don't think it'll be that vocal at matches either, i just think people would vote with their feet. 

[Ramperbamper]

I think you're probably right in that apart from the majority being upset.  I still think it'll be the minority, and I don't think it'll be that vocal at matches either, i just think people would vote with their feet.

 

The fact that people are chiefly unhappy about the results against Timmy and the Huns will result in people giving even less of a fuck about standard home games against the likes of Accies or Dundee. The atmosphere is dreadful in those games as it is, and if people will remain unhappy until we start performing in the bigger games, then it's only going to get worse with less emphasis/importance attached to the smaller games. I think it'll cause a malaise and a fan divide not seen since the dying days of that fucking tit Calderwood, and it may well prove to be the end for McInnes just as it was with that fat wanker.

 

I think it's harsh in the scheme of things and what he's done, especially given that we're still in a good position and less than a year ago we won at Ibrox and competed well in the cup final.

 

I think more people would be ok with an English team coming in for him than perhaps previously were. I think him going to the Huns would've been horrendous for us, because of what it'd have said about us in the scheme of things as much as us losing what I believe to be a decent manager to our biggest rivals.

 

FWIW I don't think anyone in the support is really anything other than upset by the results/performances against the bigots this season. I think it's where they place the results/performances in the bigger picture of McInnes' management of the club, past, present and future which is where the debate comes in.

 

For me it's not just about McInnes. I don't think any manager should be sacked under the circumstances McInnes finds himself in, given that he's shown he can get results against them with previous squads and I believe it's a personnel issue than a McInnes brain freeze or mental block. Perhaps the way modern football is going, down south especially, it's enough for people to want his head on a plate, but I maintain it's a blot on the copybook which needs resolved ASAP rather than grounds for dismissal.

[BobbyBiscuit]

 

I think it's harsh in the scheme of things and what he's done, especially given that we're still in a good position and less than a year ago we won at Ibrox and competed well in the cup final.

 

Possibly, but we've also lost there twice since then, and both times without a fight. Does that not come into it?

Competed well in the cup final, absolutely. also gone out in another cup to Motherwell, where we didn't even compete. To fucking Motherwell. I think that also has to be taken into consideration.

 

 

For me it's not just about McInnes. I don't think any manager should be sacked under the circumstances McInnes finds himself in, given that he's shown he can get results against them with previous squads and I believe it's a personnel issue than a McInnes brain freeze or mental block. Perhaps the way modern football is going, down south especially, it's enough for people to want his head on a plate, but I maintain it's a blot on the copybook which needs resolved ASAP rather than grounds for dismissal.

 

It's not just about McInnes, it's never just been about the manager for the last 25 years.  But you're saying it's a personnel issue, I would assume as in the players we have? I don't know if you've missed a word out there and don't want to misquote you but his signings are, for the most part, utter shite. And that isn't just this season.  Why anyone would have faith in him turning the squad around this summer when he failed to do it last summer, and quite spectacularly too, seems strange to me. I genuinely hope I'm wrong, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise.

[rocket_scientist]

Curious to know who you would have hired instead Rocket?

 

........................and who you would put in his place now?

 

I'm not sure why you would be that curious to know what a fan who doesn't work in football thinks about it. It's very simple though. You hire the best available candidate at the time.

 

At least two managers in the league at smaller clubs than ours have managers miles better than ours in my opinion but as to who was the best available candidate 5 years ago when Milne took McInnes, I've no idea. We pay the club to do that. Our money funds a board of directors to know these things.

 

My distaste for McInnes (and Milne) has been well documented from the start. There are worse managers than him, Coyle and Wright being totally unemployable but as I said, the only thing that matters is if he can do the job and as I also said, definition of what the job is requires clarification first. There's the rub. I repeat, what the fans want and what the chairman wants aren't on the same page.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

At least two managers in the league at smaller clubs than ours have managers miles better than ours in my opinion

 

I cannot think of ANY managers in the league MILES better than McInnes but maybe that it where you and I differ.

 

As it stands there are only two teams higher in the league so not sure what these great managers at the other clubs are doing for you to judge them to be so good.  As you've said in the past, it's not down to money so surely these other wee teams should be challenging for the title with these wonderful managers that they have.

[Sand dan Glokta]

Good thread.

 

Look back to where we were. We were shite. McInnes has been lucky, that's a fact. He steadied our ship and, to his credit, established a team that consistently over the last few years has beaten the other shite in our league. That shite included everyone except Celtic for a few seasons. Nobody can argue that. DM's a likeable guy who established a feelgood factor. Now his coaching is being challenged and he's failing.

 

The huns are back being decent, Lennon has Hibs doing well-ish, and even Levein has Hearts somewhat credible. This is the first real challenge to McInnes. How has he handled it? His tactics against Celtic have been shite and that has consistently given us nothing against them in the last 3 years (except the Scottish Cup final when we played reasonably well.....but still lost) Now we appear to see these tactics against the other 3 teams. Brutal to watch and minimal points this year against these guys. That's enough games to see coaching style, adjustments etc, and DM has clearly failed. The fact that he spouts shite after the Celtic game is relevant - same argument regardless of performance, what planet is he on?

 

We're now going backwards and top 3 will be tough. Rangers will get stronger. Lennon will get Hibs going. The finger gets pointed straight at Milne - do you see what's happening here? Or is mediocre acceptable? We've been lucky the last few years but it's time for a change for sure. DM won't resign, Milne won't sack him, our only hope is someone comes in for him. But with us on an apparent downward spiral is his credibility and reputation going to take a hit?

 

Summer will see O'Connor, Christie, Maynard, Arneson, Stewart, Nwakali, McLean, Rogers, Ball, and Woodman leave. That's 10 of the first team squad.

 

We're fucked.

 

 

Hardly f*cked.

 

Lewis

Logan Devlin McKenna Shinnie

      GMS  NB NB McGinn

    Rooney May

 

That's light years ahead of where we were in the previous summer for building a better team.

 

I don't think Rangers are that much better than us currently and arguably they'll be worse off next season once all the loanees leave and they can't afford to taken them back in.

 

 

 

[LA-Don]

Well, you're certainly a glass is half full person. How exactly are we light years ahead with 10 of the first team squad leaving? Out of curiosity, how many of the current Rangers team would make our first 11? And as for speculating about their financial future and players they'll get, that's a completely different topic. I'm more concerned about our first team finances and who we'll get.

 

Logan has been consistently shit for a long time with the occasional good game

McKenna has been excellent this year but mistakes/a dip in form is inevitable and how will he handle that? He's still young potential in my eyes

Devlin hasn't played and who knows what we're getting post injury

We have no center mids

GMS is hit or miss, more miss than hit

Rooney is extremely limited

May has done nothing for us (yet) and doesn't suit DMs style of play

[Ramperbamper]

Possibly, but we've also lost there twice since then, and both times without a fight. Does that not come into it?

Competed well in the cup final, absolutely. also gone out in another cup to Motherwell, where we didn't even compete. To fucking Motherwell. I think that also has to be taken into consideration.

 

Everything should be taken into account. Winning week in, week out against the dross of the league shouldn't be underestimated either. My point is a poor season (if that's how things turn out) shouldn't necessarily be grounds for dismissal. Done enough in my eyes to get another crack at it.

 

It's not just about McInnes, it's never just been about the manager for the last 25 years.  But you're saying it's a personnel issue, I would assume as in the players we have? I don't know if you've missed a word out there and don't want to misquote you but his signings are, for the most part, utter shite. And that isn't just this season.  Why anyone would have faith in him turning the squad around this summer when he failed to do it last summer, and quite spectacularly too, seems strange to me. I genuinely hope I'm wrong, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise.

 

I'd suggest we wouldn't have got 2nd or got to the cup final last season if we didn't have Lewis and Christie. Some of the players he signed in 2016 turned out to be squad players, some didn't work out and some left because they weren't up to it. Signing an absolute diamond like Lewis shouldn't be negated by signing someone like Storey, when it comes to judging the manager. A proper keeper is more important than the third choice striker.

 

I think his faith in the existing central defenders this season was misplaced, I'm glad he gave McKenna a shot and I've high hopes for him and Devlin as a pairing, I'd have preferred if we'd kept the target man option in the squad rather than sign Maynard, I'm glad McGinn loved working for him the first time so much that he came back, I'd love more competition in the full back areas. There's things that need to be looked at, but I've enough belief in Del to recruit wisely to stick with him for now.

 

[rocket_scientist]

Done enough in my eyes to get another crack at it.

 

If the goal is trying to anticipate the future, it is valuable to consider the qualities of the man rather than just his historic record.

[rocket_scientist]

One of the reasons for Owen Coyle's bizarrely-timed resignation he gave as the challenges of living apart from his family. For five months.

 

McInnes hasn't lived with his family for five years.

 

Of course Milne isn't prepared to consider that this may of itself have been an indication of a lack of commitment to the North East. It might even be a suggestion that he's planning to move on to bigger and better things. He certainly thinks he's capable. His failure to relocate his family, unlike Billy McNeil and SAF, might be nothing to do with his career aspirations nor his commitment to Aberdeen and the job and everything to do with aspects of personality. It takes a particular type of animal who values location over education and who puts more stock in places over people. That type of animal doesn't have much faith in human nature, nor does it have much faith in his own children.