Celtic V Aberdeen League Cup Final - Sunday 2nd Dec

[BigAl]

 

 

Cosgrove is a unit, one who wins aerial battles and has football intelligence. He holds up and lays off well. Another huge plus is that he is combative by nature and has big fight in him. He did exactly what he was supposed to do yesterday, which unfortunately on the other hand is the maximum of his capabilities because prolific goal scorer he will never be, not being able to kick a football with pace towards the goal being a rather fatal technical handicap for a competent striker. 

 

 

Nail on head Rocket. Cosgrove serves a purpose but is never going to be an out and out goalscorer. If you aren't prepared to play to his strenghts then simply don't play him. I'm not rrally one that places too much credence on supposed experts in the press (sic) and the marks they give players post match but on this occassion did have a look at a few out of curiousity and it is fair to say that Cosgrove was given decent enough marks and deemed to have led the line well yesterday. Support behind and around him was without doubt the issue

[Dunty]

Fuck it, I'll stick my neck out yet again, and defend Cosgrove. He won 8 out of 10 headers and brought others in to play when it was played at his feet. He was isolated again, and how can he blamed when he is doing his job? It's not like he wasn't winning headers and was giving the ball away. He did his job, the Ferguson's and the Shinnie's didn't do theirs, yet no one is having a go at them 

 

Cosgrove is not the answer if we are to play 1 Striker, I know that, but he did his job yesterday, but appears many would rather we went with the utterly inept May 

 

Nobody should take that as a personal insult, I am just struggling to understand why Cosgrove is the fall guy when he didn't put a foot wrong.

 

Agreed. It's not like he's fluffing easy chances or giving the ball away. People simply look at how many goals he scores.

 

But he should be playing alongside a goalscorer rather than being relied upon.

[Dunty]

Why estranged? Were you penetrating him in his infancy or childhood to satiate your odd need to involve males in your sex? Although it's not odd or abnormal at all these days apparently. But you did say straight sex was a "chore".

 

Or did you pick a bad woman to procreate with and "she's turned the weans against us"?

 

Don't encourage him. Hopefully he'll get bored and fuck off soon.

[rocket_scientist]

Don't encourage him. Hopefully he'll get bored and fuck off soon.

 

It would be best if you fucked off you boring cunt.

 

At least the sick and twisted are interesting posters.

[the real rumpus]

Tell him Rocket. Me and Dunty go back quite a way and (along with Frankie Miller)he is one of the worst cunts i've ever had the misforture to ever encounter. I call him Lencarl's lackey. He's a fucking mutant.

[wee toon red]

Fuck off with this shite from The Hat. If we want to read that garbage then we’d all be members over there.

[rocket_scientist]

Tell him? I just did.

 

Div ye mind the time Dunty and Millerman thought they would be retail magnates and took that small hovel of a store on King Street?

 

They had cleared the place and only had a few shelves up when they sat down for a break and a cup of tea.

 

Miller said to Dunty "I bet any minute now a pensioner comes by, press their face in the windie and ask what we're selling".

 

No sooner than the words were spoken a curious old wifie peeked in the windie and asked what they were selling?

 

"We are selling arseholes", Dunty snapped at her.

 

Quick as a flash, she said "Must be doing well. Only two left". 

[manc_don]

I think Aussie ref's give the scots a good run for their money.  Some of the decisions i've seen against the Nix here in Wellington have been mind boggling. 

[Dunty]

It would be best if you fucked off you boring cunt.

 

At least the sick and twisted are interesting posters.

 

This forum would be a far, far better place (and probably a lot busier) without you jumping in and ruining every thread.

 

There's a reason why you've been bounced off every forum you've been on.

[Tyrant]

Agreed. It's not like he's fluffing easy chances or giving the ball away. People simply look at how many goals he scores.

 

But he should be playing alongside a goalscorer rather than being relied upon.

 

 

You didn't read my post then did you? His job isn't scoring goals because he can't do that. But he's generally failing to make life difficult for defenders too which is what a man of his size should be doing more of.

[Goldie03]

Michael Stewart last night on radio blamed Logan for his positioning at the goal - said dons have lost a few goals this way due to him switching off.

I think it was the cruellest time for us to lose a goal - you could see our players tentatively playing out till half time, must have been brutal for them witnessing what happened to GMS

I was proud of them and glad I was there but very disappointed!

 

[RicoS321]

Michael Stewart last night on radio blamed Logan for his positioning at the goal - said dons have lost a few goals this way due to him switching off.

I think it was the cruellest time for us to lose a goal - you could see our players tentatively playing out till half time, must have been brutal for them witnessing what happened to GMS

I was proud of them and glad I was there but very disappointed!

 

Logan did drop very deep and was badly positioned (no idea what the fuck he was doing to be honest) but for me McKenna has to be the guy that controls that defence. Considine did exactly the right think (he had a good game) by following the attacker upfield and pressuring him. When he does this, the other central defender has to be positioning himself more centrally by taking a couple of steps infield (and probably back the way). He has to expect that there will be several times in a game when a midfielder loses his runner and he needs to step across the way to block the ball over the top as the last line of defence. It's something Devlin would have dealt with I expect, McKenna seems slightly less aware of what his partner is doing than Devlin - it'd be one of the few criticisms I could have with McKenna.

 

Overall, I thought the performance was as expected. I think McInnes got the tactics about right and we gave it a good go. I think the problems very clearly lie with the forwards and I don't think we'll be in a position to fix until January and perhaps the summer. With our existing personnel we were really hoping for a piece of luck, an amazing bit of skill from nowhere or a setpiece goal and when you go in with that as your only hope your likely to lose. A good bit of fight and effort all round though, apart from Wilson who appears to be a Maynard-esque charlatan but on a significantly higher wage. I'd be sending him back down the road now to send a warning to the other charlatans that we signed in the summer and anyone else that thinks they can take the piss out of the club with such a lack of effort.

[rocket_scientist]

Logan was on Sinclair. Shinnie was on Christie, as he had been the whole game. It was a tremendously intelligent run by Christie but Shinnie let him go and worse, was badly positioned in front of him to not anticipate the run behind him. Logan saw that Shinnie had let him go and left his man to cover.

[RicoS321]

Logan was on Sinclair. Shinnie was on Christie, as he had been the whole game. It was a tremendously intelligent run by Christie but Shinnie let him go and worse, was badly positioned in front of him to not anticipate the run behind him. Logan saw that Shinnie had let him go and left his man to cover.

 

Logan didn't though, he stood half way between covering his man and covering Christie, which is what Michael Stewart pointed out; he basically was caught in the middle. Shinnie let Christie go, undoubtedly, but that's fine. Midfielders do that loads of times in a game, they're not the last line of defence, indeed Christie let Shinnie go in the second half and was booked for bringing him down. We need our defenders to be alert to the runners beyond the midfield, to stop them, or slow them up enough for the midfield to get back. To me, that responsibility had to be with the centre half rather than Logan. Logan attempted to match the run from Christie but ended up in no-mans land playing him onside but not close enough to take him out. As I said, if Devlin had been in McKenna's position, he'd have pulled across to split the gap between his own man and the hole behind the other defender so that he only had a few yards to cover to stop or slow down Christie allowing Shinnie to get back in as cover. McKenna was concentrating on his own man and playing a ridiculously high line rather than watching what his other centre half was doing. Russell Anderson wid have totally read that play in his day and that's what McKenna needs to aspire to (be better than).

[rocket_scientist]

Rico, you seem to be giving Logan the biggest blame for the goal, which is apparently what Michael Stewart did (although I didn't hear it but I'm happy to take your, and hebrew's, word for that). I disagree with you both.

 

Stewart is the best pundit out there in my opinion and as I've been saying since I heard the Murrayfield 0-0 on the radio but that doesn't mean that he's not human and that he doesn't make mistakes like the rest of us and I've seen way more AFC games than he has.

 

In a beach cafe for lunch today, I took the opportunity to do something I rarely do and read the tabloids (back pages only). Both Considine and McKenna were quoted about momentary lapses in concentration and switching off for a second, which was exactly what I said at the time: -

 

Not a bad first half but switch off for one second and the mistake was punished. Gutting. Such a simple through ball for their goal.

 

What neither of them did was to attribute blame and actually say who it was who switched off, as we would rightly expect. They're hardly going to call out themselves or a teammate. I didn't even seek to apportion blame at the time, as per my post, and at HT my son reckoned Logan but I said I'd need to see it again but my gut instinct was Shinnie, as he had been man-marking Christie the whole of the first half.

 

With the benefit of hindsight and the highlights are there for all to see on YouTube, I'm convinced that Shinnie was the most culpable.

 

I hear what you're saying about Russell Anderson and we agree that McKenna has mistakes in him and has a lot to learn, and you make a very good point that he is not as aware of his central partner as the best practitioners in that crucial position. A top quality sweeper would have the whole game in front of him and would have been aware of the Christie's run coming in to the middle from the right and without having a man to mark himself - because there were no forwards in green at the top end at that time, the ONLY threat being Christie - he should have been able to anticipate and provide cover for Shinnie, who's schoolboy error was losing his man and allowing Ryan to run into space behind him.

 

It was a magnificent ball in and a great run but it was embarrassingly simple how it carved us up. What I don't get is how Logan gets the torture here. He is our right back and therefore never our last line of defence and was clearly marking Sinclair and any run that he may have made towards our box. When Christie went behind Shinnie and it was obvious that Shinnie was out of position, even before the ball was passed, Logan was off like a hare, leaving Sinclair and everything else behind and running flat out towards goal to try and cover. He was the first to anticipate the problem, the one that Shinnie had created and Shay was unlucky in his attempts to block the second attempt, where Shinnie was fucking nowhere.

 

I'm happy to apportion some of the blame to the central defence who were sleeping to allow that simple goal to happen but I'm afraid Shinnie must take the biggest hit here and as for Logan, it was his heart and his football brain that even got him into the picture but he did absolutely nothing wrong, as it's not his job to be the last man and it wasn't him who let the run happen thereby allowing a simple (but sublimely executed) through ball and a goal.

 

This is 100% another exposure of our manager's failings. Shinnie is not good enough in midfield for a top, winning, team. He's committed for sure but he doesn't possess the basic skills required in the middle of the park and offers nothing creatively (like the vast majority of the team). Zero shots on target in 90 minutes is an embarrassing stat - and possibly zero off target too - and it's not the first time this season. It's not working but blaming Logan, one of the most competent players (in his position) at AFC (albeit being allowed to plateau at best and regress over the last 8-12 months) is totally unfair. What should he have done?

[Ten Caat]

100% in agreement with Rocket here. Having watched replays of the goal 6 times the person who is culpable here is Shinnie. I have no doubt his head was possibly still scrambled after witnessing the GMS incident and the whole team was just doing their damnedest to get through to half time. Shinnie switched off and lost his man. Consi was following instructions to the letter by tracking Edouard. Logan does spot the danger but cannot risk over committing too early and leaving a huge space on his side where Sinclair was rapidly heading into.

 

RS is also correct in saying that Shinnie just is not of the required standard to fill a midfield role for us. Too often he is the one where we are in possession and he is at fault for losing it......Ball seems to get most folks' ire for this but Shinnie is at least at fault as often and I'd say more. ls also far too one footed. Said it before and I'll say it again.....I thin Shinnie is for the off at season's end anyway but any new contract offer we are to put before him should be on the basis that he plays left back and left back only, except in emergency situations.

[RicoS321]

Nope, I wasn't blaming Logan the most, I was definitely blaming McKenna. I simply meant that Logan's effort was poor as he should have been playing the line with McKenna or coming right infield to challenge Christie if he thought there was danger, neither of which he did until it was too late. Stewart's point was that he took a poor position, and I agree, but he did so for the right reasons as his back four let him down. It wasn't his job to be covering, so I agree that it would be exceptional harsh to attribute blame to him.

 

As I said regarding Shinnie, midfielders let there man go all the time. It happens heaps during a game. That's the gamble that they're allowed to take in that position and in a straight race Christie was going to win. It's a completely acceptable position for him to be in. If you go back to youtube and have a look, you'll see that McKenna is attempting to retain a back four high line when his other centre half has left that area. He's marking no-one, but is simply occupying a spot on the pitch that corresponds to his position at a goal kick/formation diagram or whatever. As Considine was marking his man, and still making his way back, McKenna should have been within a few yards of Considine's normal back 4 position, at which point he could easily have got in and headered that. The defence can see what's happening in front of them, the midfield cannot, so it's far easier for a defender to not get caught out by a run than it is a midfielder (indeed Ball got caught a couple of times as did Ferguson, with Christie booked for them for lettings his man go - that comes with the position). It was an excellent run and pass though.

[RicoS321]

100% in agreement with Rocket here. Having watched replays of the goal 6 times the person who is culpable here is Shinnie. I have no doubt his head was possibly still scrambled after witnessing the GMS incident and the whole team was just doing their damnedest to get through to half time. Shinnie switched off and lost his man. Consi was following instructions to the letter by tracking Edouard. Logan does spot the danger but cannot risk over committing too early and leaving a huge space on his side where Sinclair was rapidly heading into.

 

RS is also correct in saying that Shinnie just is not of the required standard to fill a midfield role for us. Too often he is the one where we are in possession and he is at fault for losing it......Ball seems to get most folks' ire for this but Shinnie is at least at fault as often and I'd say more. ls also far too one footed. Said it before and I'll say it again.....I thin Shinnie is for the off at season's end anyway but any new contract offer we are to put before him should be on the basis that he plays left back and left back only, except in emergency situations.

 

He lost his man, but so far you've both ignored the point that that is what midfielders do regularly in games. They can afford to, generally speaking, as there's a line behind them that should be there to hold up the attacker. That there wasn't a line behind Shinnie wasn't Shinnie's fault. You should watch the replay back a seventh time and ask why McKenna is trying to hold a back line when there's an important other central defender missing from that line. It's a poor bit of defending by any standard. If McLeish had done what Considine had done, Miller would have known to cover. It's basic defensive instruction, if one goes up/forward the other closes the gap, going deeper if required. When Considine retreats, he (McKenna) takes a few steps back to position. I've taken the liberty of showing a screenshot of it*:

 

 

Although it doesn't look great for Logan in that shot either mind you (and leaving Sinclair would have been the lesser of the two issue given the position), but you can see Shinnie is an a straight run with Christie in which he's always going to lose.

 

 

 

*[patronisingSmiley][/patronisingSmiley]

 

Edit: Seriously, look at that gap that McKenna is occupying when there are four attackers on his right, he's marking space, it looks ridiculous in that shot, it's a fucking massive hole. I'm actually really surprised that's not what Stewart was pointing out given they go over these things in great detail.

[rocket_scientist]

We won't agree on Shinnie for this one although I do accept your point about McKenna being culpable too.

 

The principal reason I can't agree with you is that I don't buy your line about "midfielders lose their man all the time". When we do not have the ball, the whole point of defending - and good teams defend from the very front when not in possession - is that we do NOT lose our man, particularly when he's already between the half way line and our box. There is no excuse for being so out of position that he couldn't see Christie behind him.

 

What really fucks me off is a professional pundit slating Logan for this one. That's just not fair and totally unmerited.

[Goldie03]

I was driving so not paying that much attention ( to the radio not the road) but that's what Stewart actually made a point of saying that he has noticed during his analysis of our games that Logan costs us a fair few goals - might be a bit harsh to single him out for this particular one but I get what he means

[RicoS321]

I was driving so not paying that much attention ( to the radio not the road) but that's what Stewart actually made a point of saying that he has noticed during his analysis of our games that Logan costs us a fair few goals - might be a bit harsh to single him out for this particular one but I get what he means

 

Yep, I heard it too, I thought it was a little bit harsh. It was almost like he'd been on dons forums and heard that Logan was culpable for a few goals this season (although not many, I thought he was worse last season) and took the easy way out with his analysis by blaming Logan without paying that much attention knowing people would take note. It certainly was the case that Logan could have got to the ball, but he also had another man to worry about, and Stewart should know that that area of the pitch isn't the responsibility of the full back. If anything, Logan does bail us out on numerous occasions by using his pace to cut out attacks that have breached the centre halfs.

[Dunty]

 

You didn't read my post then did you? His job isn't scoring goals because he can't do that. But he's generally failing to make life difficult for defenders too which is what a man of his size should be doing more of.

 

Yeh I did. I agreed with you.