Victim fc v Dons 09/03

[CtS]

If Derek McInnes got the Celtic managers job this summer, he’d win the league next season. Absolutely guaranteed.

 

That’s got fuck all to do with winners mentality, and everything to do with resources.

[rocket_scientist]

I understand entirely what you're saying. I also know that you need more than placating interviews on the TV to judge a man's personality. I'm also not arguing that McInnes is a winner, I'm arguing that you or I are not best placed to know (or that you haven't evidenced your additional knowledge that allows you to make the decision). Anyone suggesting they have a real insight into a man's character based on his interviews is a snake oil salesman. I appreciate that you probably have more information than that, but you haven't been forthcoming with it.

 

No you don't. Lawrence Gatland in his interview on North Tonight said "you can't coach experience". When you are older and wiser, you won't say that we "meed more" (than interviews on TV) to "judge a man's personality".

 

The truth is that we judge people on immediate impressions and more often than not, our initial impressions are true. This is a function of instinct, another aspect of the human (and animal) condition that gets overlooked by atheists for example and people who demand empirical proof all the time, even for subjects where it can't be offered.

 

We have seen LOADS of interviews by McInnes over the years. Did you see his interview tonight? Did you BELIEVE him? Did you think he BELIEVED that we would "get on the coach with a semi-final to look forward to"? Did you notice how he brushed his forehead? Did you hear the tone of his delivery? Did you see the rabbit-in-the-headlight eyes in his skull?

 

Either you can see and understand body language, tone delivery and word construction and what they mean or you can't. Most don't even have the imagination to acknowledge let alone understand this subject.

 

Your attempted insult about "snake oil salesman" is noted but it again highlights your lack of experience because it most certainly is possible to get an insight into a man's character from what they say and how they say it, particularly when we see the same aspects being trotted out year after year after year.

 

I've provided you with reasons for us not winning the league - far more plausible than just being a winner - you just choose to ignore them.

 

That's just a fucking lie and also a further insult.

 

Only a fool would fail to acknowledge that there is a financial disparity between AFC and Celtic. On the contrary, I HAVE recognised this and have never denied it (and how could anyone?). You are twisting the record. It was YOU who failed to acknowledge that the remarkable achievement of Leicester two seasons ago was achieved despite a massive financial disadvantage (against many teams, not just one) and that it happened because of many other reasons, the prevailing culture being the most influential, a culture where they saw the possibility and believed that it could be done, something you've already admitted (wrongly) AFC can't do because boo hoo hoo, they've got more money than us.

 

And fuck off with "there have been plenty of unexpected league and cup victories". I only remember one. Rangers in the semi-final was phenomenal, the best bounce I've had as an AFC fan since the SC final in 1990 but it means fuck all if we can't back it up. Even in his interview tonight McInnes said that it was a "narrow" defeat in the final? Was it fuck. We were there. We never had a chance of any note for 90 minutes. We don't win games if we can't score goals.

 

This was yet another piece of evidence (since you're desperate for some) that McInnes is a bullshitting midget charlatan loser cunt who talks himself up to a better game than he can deliver. Nobody remembers losers. Any "unexpected victories" are meaningless if we don't win anything and the fact that they are unexpected shows how low we have sunk. Another phrase he uses which proves his mindset is "getting to a final", exactly what Calderclown used to say. SAF and indeed any winner doesn't even think of getting to finals. The whole point is to win the fucking thing, or at least that's my point, it's certainly not yours as we have a major aspirations-disparity, a "day out" being your whole objective.

[RicoS321]

No you don't. Lawrence Gatland in his interview on North Tonight said "you can't coach experience". When you are older and wiser, you won't say that we "meed more" (than interviews on TV) to "judge a man's personality".

 

Wiseness isn't a function of age, that's just an arrogant statement by an older person. Experience, definitely, but the phrase "wise beyond their years" exists for a reason.

 

The truth is that we judge people on immediate impressions and more often than not, our initial impressions are true. This is a function of instinct, another aspect of the human (and animal) condition that gets overlooked by atheists for example and people who demand empirical proof all the time, even for subjects where it can't be offered.

 

Can you quantify "more often than not"?

 

We have seen LOADS of interviews by McInnes over the years. Did you see his interview tonight? Did you BELIEVE him? Did you think he BELIEVED that we would "get on the coach with a semi-final to look forward to"? Did you notice how he brushed his forehead? Did you hear the tone of his delivery? Did you see the rabbit-in-the-headlight eyes in his skull?

 

Either you can see and understand body language, tone delivery and word construction and what they mean or you can't. Most don't even have the imagination to acknowledge let alone understand this subject.

 

You're missing the point. I'm not here to argue that McInnes is a winner, I'm arguing the extent to which being a winner makes any difference in the overall scheme of things in a season and suggesting that it has far less impact than good transfer dealings, etc etc. You would have made exactly the same point about McInnes' interview prior to the hun semi final too, most definitely, but we won.

 

Your attempted insult about "snake oil salesman" is noted but it again highlights your lack of experience because it most certainly is possible to get an insight into a man's character from what they say and how they say it, particularly when we see the same aspects being trotted out year after year after year.

 

That's just a fucking lie and also a further insult.

 

Grow up, nobody is insulting anyone. You and I both know that you're not the type to take insult in an online debate.

 

Only a fool would fail to acknowledge that there is a financial disparity between AFC and Celtic. On the contrary, I HAVE recognised this and have never denied it (and how could anyone?). You are twisting the record. It was YOU who failed to acknowledge that the remarkable achievement of Leicester two seasons ago was achieved despite a massive financial disadvantage (against many teams, not just one) and that it happened because of many other reasons, the prevailing culture being the most influential, a culture where they saw the possibility and believed that it could be done, something you've already admitted (wrongly) AFC can't do because boo hoo hoo, they've got more money than us.

 

No I didn't. I simply said that it was the only example of its kind anywhere this century and they haven't repeated those conditions since, which suggests it was as much a case of everything going right at the right time. I also suggested that the dons winning the league would have been a bigger achievement and that you would definitely have accused Ranieri of not being a winner prior to being appointed Leicester manager.

 

And fuck off with "there have been plenty of unexpected league and cup victories". I only remember one. Rangers in the semi-final was phenomenal, the best bounce I've had as an AFC fan since the SC final in 1990 but it means fuck all if we can't back it up. Even in his interview tonight McInnes said that it was a "narrow" defeat in the final? Was it fuck. We were there. We never had a chance of any note for 90 minutes. We don't win games if we can't score goals.

 

This was yet another piece of evidence (since you're desperate for some) that McInnes is a bullshitting midget charlatan loser cunt who talks himself up to a better game than he can deliver. Nobody remembers losers. Any "unexpected victories" are meaningless if we don't win anything and the fact that they are unexpected shows how low we have sunk. Another phrase he uses which proves his mindset is "getting to a final", exactly what Calderclown used to say. SAF and indeed any winner doesn't even think of getting to finals. The whole point is to win the fucking thing, or at least that's my point, it's certainly not yours as we have a major aspirations-disparity, a "day out" being your whole objective.

 

Don't tell me what my objective is. I'll have to take your word for it on McInnes talking about getting to a final (I do, I'm not suggesting your lying). I've heard him on numerous occasions state that, but it's always been caveated with "but it's always been my desire to bring silverware back to Pittodrie/fans deserve it etc" (pharaphrasing, obviously). I heard him say that on so many occasions I can't take it particularly seriously, nor do I think it has any bearing as to what he says behind closed doors or to the team. Obviously, prior to a game I'd rather he said as little as possible.

[rocket_scientist]

Wiseness isn't a function of age, that's just an arrogant statement by an older person. Experience, definitely, but the phrase "wise beyond their years" exists for a reason.

 

Can you quantify "more often than not"?

 

These are diversionary and unnecessary. Your use of "arrogant" is also noted and once again, it fails to upset me pr otherwise get me to lose my cool, for reasons that will become clear. All I said was "older and wiser". You pick up on that to go off on a tangent? Grow up. And you may think you're being clever by asking me to "quantify" but it's too obvious to warrant further explanation.

 

 

You're missing the point.

 

Now we have your proof that what you're doing is wrong. My retort was in response to you saying that we can't judge a man based on what he says and how he says it. That's all.

 

 

I'm not here to argue that McInnes is a winner, I'm arguing the extent to which being a winner makes any difference in the overall scheme of things in a season and suggesting that it has far less impact than good transfer dealings, etc etc. You would have made exactly the same point about McInnes' interview prior to the hun semi final too, most definitely, but we won.

 

Your words that I've highlighted prove that you don't understand what I've been saying. Of course transfer dealings are very important "in the overall scheme of things in a season" but I am talking about McInnes the man and why his personality defects are fatal if the objective is to be the best that we can be. I also did NOT say anything about McInnes' interview before the huns semi, as I never saw or heard it, downing many pints as I was doing in the closest bar to Hampden.

 

Actually, I didn't even talk about my well-known issues with our manager and our chairman. I was talking about your diatribe about tactics, when you spelled out in too many words the fucking obvious, like you like to do. I referenced what Souness was saying yesterday and it was only when your other McInnes apologist, your fellow-denier of AFC reality jumped in by taking one line from my post to leap to McInnes' defence that you then backed him up.

 

 

Grow up, nobody is insulting anyone. You and I both know that you're not the type to take insult in an online debate.

 

Like I give a fuck about the many insults I face in "an online debate". It's true though, your "snake oil salesman" like your "arrogant" and like your suggestion that I was so foolish that I ignored the financial reality between us and Celtic are attempts to rile your opponent... and yet, we're not even disagreeing on anything other than how we can judge a man, you having started with a search for "evidence" to justify my having such a position.

 

 

No I didn't. I simply said that it was the only example of its kind anywhere this century and they haven't repeated those conditions since, which suggests it was as much a case of everything going right at the right time. I also suggested that the dons winning the league would have been a bigger achievement and that you would definitely have accused Ranieri of not being a winner prior to being appointed Leicester manager.

 

I accept that you didn't deny Leicester's achievement. Maybe I was twisting the record like you had done but I do not accept that AFC beating Celtic would have been bigger achievement. How the fuck do you know what I would have said about Ranieri? He had a solid record in the game and I never cast any opinion about him at that time.

 

 

Don't tell me what my objective is. I'll have to take your word for it on McInnes talking about getting to a final (I do, I'm not suggesting your lying). I've heard him on numerous occasions state that, but it's always been caveated with "but it's always been my desire to bring silverware back to Pittodrie/fans deserve it etc" (pharaphrasing, obviously). I heard him say that on so many occasions I can't take it particularly seriously, nor do I think it has any bearing as to what he says behind closed doors or to the team. Obviously, prior to a game I'd rather he said as little as possible.

 

I apologise if I misread your words but I'm pretty certain that you DID say that the "day-out" occasion of the thing was an important factor for you.

 

Even if he did caveat it, you once again miss the whole point, not that I've heard him speak about silverware as often as you have. He DOES speak about getting to finals and this of itself reveals his true ambition, which is to keep on taking a wage.

 

We may or may not disagree on McInnes the man but we clearly have life experiences that differ which as far as I can see, is leading us to some misunderstandings on this issue and on this thread.

[RicoS321]

I apologise if I misread your words but I'm pretty certain that you DID say that the "day-out" occasion of the thing was an important factor for you.

 

It's been good as always, but you've taken it too far with that. I have never said that the "day-out" was an important factor! Unless I was posting whilst on drugs. Drugs that turned me into a queer.

 

 

[rocket_scientist]

You don't take drugs and have never done so!

 

Doesn't make you a bad person.

 

Edit: there's another example of how we can determine aspects of personality from the words we use and how we put them together, this time from the written word.

 

[manc_don]

Would have thought Manc would have had this started by now but must be to busy practicing the huddle. No idea how we line up for this but would be tempted to go with forwards who will play in quarter final so as they get game time together. Can always bring Cosgrove off the bench if we have to. Hate going to this shithole and find their fans just as vile a bunch of bigots as the blue arse cheeks. According to club the away allocation has sold out for this which is good going for a tie we usually lose.

 

In

Train then pub in centre of town

Away end

Train back to the Capital

2-0 no Dons scorer

 

Ha, sorry, had bigger things to be doing! Will be back in action by the weekend

[Jute]

Ha, sorry, had bigger things to be doing! Will be back in action by the weekend

 

Don’t give us the wedding pish. The wife will have arranged that all anyway. All you have to do is turn up sober.

[Tyrant]

I was not commenting on McInnes as a manager just the way we played and how 0-0 was cheered like a victory by some of our support. I dislike going to games where the team I support is playing to keep the score down. I cannot see the point in not trying to go at them on the front foot.

 

Worst part about Saturday is that Celtic were not even that good and if we had pressed them higher up the field I think we would have had a better chance of winning the game.

 

Kirakov I would say Rocket is right when he says Murray has won what he has because he has a winners mentality not because he took a safety first approach.

 

Agreed Jute. I made a sharp exit from the stands at full time on Saturday. Not that I wouldn't have taken a draw before the game because I probably would. The first half was shite. The second half slightly better but I didn't feel comfortable happy clapping the team off the park after a famous 0-0 at the Giro Dome. Not the worst result in the world by any means but we could have had more.

[sheepheid]

There's optimism, realism and just down right foolishness.

A few years back, Alex Ferguson asked Roy Keane what his exceptions were for the world cup.  He said to win it.  Ferguson laughed at him in disbelief.

At the time, an optimistic expectation would have been Ireland getting to the last 16.  A realistic expectation would have been them getting out of the group.  A foolish expectation was the nonsense that Roy Keane answered with.

 

[rocket_scientist]

Expectations are no predictor of outcomes and the unexpected happens often.

 

Leicester and the punter who backed them at 5,000/1 weren't foolish.

 

Who would have thought AFC would beat Bayern and Real Madrid and lift a European trophy? I bet Paul Lawrie winning the Open would've been met with similar scorn but like AFC 16 years before, he thoroughly deserved it.

 

It says more about the derisor than the person who dares to dream.

[rocket_scientist]

Plus, I bet Keane wasn't saying we ARE going to win the World Cup. He knew how incredibly unlikely that would've been and he would have had his own desires and expectations, with various levels of realistically coming to pass. He was simply answering a question and he answered correctly.

[Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan]

There's optimism, realism and just down right foolishness.

A few years back, Alex Ferguson asked Roy Keane what his exceptions were for the world cup.  He said to win it.  Ferguson laughed at him in disbelief.

At the time, an optimistic expectation would have been Ireland getting to the last 16.  A realistic expectation would have been them getting out of the group.  A foolish expectation was the nonsense that Roy Keane answered with.

 

It's a good post there sheepheid.  At the start of each season we would all ultimately want our team to win the treble but that has to be tempered with a bit of realism.  I have always thought that the best manager is someone able to get the best out of the resources available to him, not necessarily the one that picks up the silverware.  As someone eluded to in another post, give McInnes the Celtic squad and £10M to spend in the summer and he would win the league next season.

 

The Leicester City freak show has clouded everyones views of what is realistic.  Most people will admit that it was a one off but then harp back to it when things are going poorly at their own club.

 

Similarly our own fans have had their views clouded with what happened during the 80s which was pretty much a freak period in our history as well.  Before that wonderful decade we were never serial winners yet there is some sort of entitlement thing amongst a section of the support who lived through the Fergie days that we're supposed to win trophies because of what happened back then.  It's the sort of thing that pisses us off about the hun supporters yet we are actually a bit the same ourselves.

 

 

 

 

 

[sheepheid]

 

Similarly our own fans have had their views clouded with what happened during the 80s which was pretty much a freak period in our history as well.  Before that wonderful decade we were never serial winners yet there is some sort of entitlement thing amongst a section of the support who lived through the Fergie days that we're supposed to win trophies because of what happened back then.  It's the sort of thing that pisses us off about the hun supporters yet we are actually a bit the same ourselves.

 

Agreed.

Money has changed the game and I don't see that changing in my lifetime, or for most who post on this forum.

[tlg1903]

Wasn't just Leicester though was it (I would also add if we had won the league the same season as them in terms of resource our achievement would have been greater). In the past ten years athletico and montpellier have won their respective divisions against significantly greater resourced teams.  For afc to win the league we would need to have an almost flawless league campaign and the good fortune that celtic were having an off season.  It's not impossible, just pretty improbable.