Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding

[LA-Don]

What if Wright was given the minutes in the central attacking midfield role equivalent to what we gave Cosgrove last year? Did he score before November yet we stuck with him? Wright isn’t consistent but has he been given a fair number of consistent and consecutive starts? Much like Shankland, we’ll never know.

[KennyFuckinPowers]

Stevie May to St Johnstone is back on apparently. Just dawned on me that he's not been in the squad at all since the Hearts game.

 

Also, I know McInnes has said there will be no more incoming players, but I am extremely hopeful that isn't the case, I really think we require another midfielder, possibly another Centre Half as well, just in case Taylor & Devlin are out longer than initially let on.

[RicoS321]

Stevie May to St Johnstone is back on apparently. Just dawned on me that he's not been in the squad at all since the Hearts game.

 

Also, I know McInnes has said there will be no more incoming players, but I am extremely hopeful that isn't the case, I really think we require another midfielder, possibly another Centre Half as well, just in case Taylor & Devlin are out longer than initially let on.

 

I don't think we need another centre half. If we've got Considine, McKenna, Vyner, Devlin and Taylor that should cover it. If the midfielder is an attacking midfielder, then I agree we need to get someone in that role. Failing that, a better wide player. However, I think we're short on quality more generally again. Lowe is a huge loss, we've got nobody being the captain in the centre of midfield and May, Main, Wilson, Wright and possibly McLennan aren't good enough to regularly produce anything of note in the forward areas. Unsure about Gallagher and Bryson so far. We need a player in the forward areas that is really going to be a first name on the teamsheet (like Cosgrove is at the minute). The ones above are all just filler really.

 

[ayrshire_don74]

dm has fucked himself due to very poor acquisitions (fees) last few seasons he has emptied the coffers with very little return

[RicoS321]

dm has fucked himself due to very poor acquisitions (fees) last few seasons he has emptied the coffers with very little return

 

Aye, with emphasis on the last few seasons like. He's basically been playing catch up for two years on his own poor signings since May-day. He might actually hit his targets for signings this season (50% return - I'm guessing), however when you still have May and Gleeson on the books and with little sign of any new youth development, it makes it very hard to get a competent squad resilient to injury. With that in mind, he clearly made some "safe" purchases in Taylor, Main and Wilson. It's here that I have the issue. These signings should have been made now when we'd seen how good our main (not Main) signings got on. Had we seen the current crop, I think we'd have been looking for a better striker than Main and Wilson with Anderson as backup if needed. Similarly, defensively, we'd probably be looking for a better centre half than Taylor with Devlin missing again. McInnes has taken the cautious approach of getting numbers in and, now we have numbers, we realise they're shite.

[manc_don]

We need a striker, a right back, an attacking mid (or 10) and a winger imo.

 

We're not going to get any of that, despite the creative players absolute urgency.  It's hard to see how we're going to score this season after what seemed to be a promising start.  My Killie mate thought they'd actually finish above us 

 

Previous seasons have come to bite him (DM). Big time.

 

Edit: Agree with you Rico, apparent safe signings are what has killed this team.

[LA-Don]

When you look at it our major signings over the last few years have been GMS, May, Stewart, Devlin, Forrester, and Gleeson, and I suppose Christie and Wilson on loan. That’s a lot of money. What do we have to show for that? I was excited for most if not all but most have been useless if you ask me. What has killed us is we failed to replace Barry Robson, Flood, Hayes, McLean, and McGinn is a shadow of his former self. Sam is limited but would probably have thrived with the service Rooney got.

 

Pretty depressing stuff at the moment. In my eyes we have one good and consistent player, Lewis.

 

Leigh isn’t as strong as Lowe but isn’t bad, very disappointed how central defense has played out, relying on Considine who is shite, slow, and gifts goals and free kicks, but probably our most consistent defender. Plus another year where our right back is Logan who is clearly on the decline and has been a while. Ferguson is solid in the middle of the park but is being way over played, being given far too much responsibility, and still plays like a spoiled child. DM will burn him out. I rate Ojo but from what I read he wasn’t interested at Scunthorpe when things went shit there, and I expect the same here. Bryson too early to judge but nothing impressive so far....but he’s not fit. Wright and McLennan are nothing special, zero consistency like GMS, while McGinn is on a steady decline too and isn’t a winger now, should be #10 but DM will continue playing him wide with the hope of days gone by. I like Hedges, no clue why he didn’t play at Killie. Vyner looks like Ash. Solid at times but a bombscare at any moment. May is crap, Main very poor, Anderson won’t be given a chance like Shankland, fuck knows about Wilson, no clue why we signed him. I think he’s better than Cosgrove but stuck wide he’s poor. Gallagher works hard and was terrific first game, but very mediocre since against better opponents.

 

Oh, and we just threw a three year contract at the clown. Geez.

 

I’ll finish with a question, have many of DMs signings have excelled/exceed expectations?

[RicoS321]

I’ll finish with a question, have many of DMs signings have excelled/exceed expectations?

 

Quite a few over the years. Robson, Rooney, McLean, Logan, Lewis, Cosgrove, Lowe, Maddison, Christie, Shinnie off the top of my head.

 

I think it misses the point slightly though. It's a bit like youth development in many ways. You only really need one or two of your signings to excel in any given season. The rest you just need to form a part of the first 11 or, at worst, good squad material (O'Connor, Ball, May etc). As long as you can keep your core first team at an above average level, then supplement with one or two good signings to replace those that leave and hope to promote one good youth team player and one above average youth team player every year. If you can keep that in/outflow relatively stable then you're fine. Over the last three years, McInnes has made key mistakes in signing May, Gleeson, Forrester and - in my opinion (so far) - Wilson this season (I'll keep my powder dry on the rest of the signings, but at the moment I'm thinking Hedges will be the only one worth holding onto and maybe Ojo). Currently, we're having to make up our first team with guys that we can only hope will be good enough as our outflows have been far greater than our inflows as we (McInnes) let things slide for two years running. That should have been made up with by making more signings later in the window. Instead, we made those signings early in the window, locking ourselves into the hope that Gallagher, Ojo, Bryson, Hedges and Leigh will be good enough. In my opinion, what McInnes thought was a cautious and safe strategy of signing Main, Wilson and Taylor nice and early to ensure our squad remained no less than average, will actually turn out to bite him on the airse as he doesn't have the budget to get himself out of a hole.

[KennyFuckinPowers]

I wasn't aware that Bryson was Injured for 4 Months previously to joining us. That's a fair chunk to miss, especially for someone getting on a bit in their career.

 

I have zero doubt, and I know I said the same about Gleeson ( Might still come good if afforded the opportunity! ) that Bryson will come good, zero doubt. He was highly regarded even last season, when playing, and they wanted to keep him, he has vast experience and has made large contributions to a Derby team that always flirted with promotion, he's an excellent Midfielder, sadly, and he said it himself after the Killie game, he was rushed back and ended up picking up another Injury.

 

I also think the likes of Bryson & Gleeson would help Ferguson tremendously, barring the first couple of games this season, I think Ferguson is hugely overrated, people take on board an overhead kick against Burnley & Livingston and a header against Rangers, forgetting that he was one of the poorer players on the pitch in these games, he's never stood out, he's never had an " Excellent " game yet he's lauded as one of the best prospects in Scottish Football, don't see it myself, but there you go, opinions and all that.  He could absolutely learn from guys like Bryson & Gleeson.

 

I do think we need another Centre Half, in terms of Wingers, Hedges is a Winger, but he appears to be coming deep, centrally, to get the ball, much like the Kenny McLean role, and that's wrong, he should be wide, McLennan definitely has potential, he needs a run of games though, can't be in and out of the team, needs to be playing, Wilson is not a winger, he's a Centre Forward, that's where he should be playing, or even just off Cosgrove, but centrally, that is the important part, he's not a wide player. 

[ayrshire_don74]

playing players out of position seems to be a trait, I dont get it , nor do most of us..

[RicoS321]

playing players out of position seems to be a trait, I dont get it , nor do most of us..

 

It's obvious though isn't it? It's to accomodate. In my mind, Wilson doesn't play because Cosgrove is much better. If Cosgrove goes to Man City, gets injured, has a dip in form or needs rested then Wilson comes in. When Cosgrove tires and we're two goals up, then Wilson comes on. That means Wilson spending a lot of time on the bench, so McInnes decides to try him out elsewhere - I wouldn't. It's not specific to McInnes either, all managers trying to balance squads do it. Heckingbottom was getting hassled for playing Allan out wide this season. McInnes wants to appease guys like Bryson and Ferguson by playing them every week, which means the no 10 role isn't freed up for Wilson, or Hedges, or Wright, or McGinn. It's all a bit of a juggle really. The difference between us and the Tims - for example - is that their players can do a job in the SPL in multiple positions. McGinn can play across the front 3 and I suspect Hedges can too, but the others struggle to and McInnes expect it of him. I mentioned last season that Steve Clarke was very good at getting players to play a single role very well and that's how he managed to get Killie to where they were. McInnes doesn't do that. He expects his foward players to be able to play across the positions and regularly changes them throughout games (I don't believe that Wilson didn't play through the middle at times against Killie, but I didn't see it). To me, it's hugely detrimental as players like Wright struggle with that chopping and changing. In my opinion, you need to get a player playing well in one role by giving them an extended run there before attempting to switch them back and forth. Get them confident in the league they're playing first. Wilson is obviously an exception to that as he was given a run at centre forward for 9 consecutive games last season and he was pish - which is why I don't think we should have signed him again. Wright, McLennan, Stewart etc are/weren't given that without moving them about throughout games.

[LA-Don]

Quite a few over the years. Robson, Rooney, McLean, Logan, Lewis, Cosgrove, Lowe, Maddison, Christie, Shinnie off the top of my head.

 

I think it misses the point slightly though. It's a bit like youth development in many ways. You only really need one or two of your signings to excel in any given season. The rest you just need to form a part of the first 11 or, at worst, good squad material (O'Connor, Ball, May etc). As long as you can keep your core first team at an above average level, then supplement with one or two good signings to replace those that leave and hope to promote one good youth team player and one above average youth team player every year. If you can keep that in/outflow relatively stable then you're fine. Over the last three years, McInnes has made key mistakes in signing May, Gleeson, Forrester and - in my opinion (so far) - Wilson this season (I'll keep my powder dry on the rest of the signings, but at the moment I'm thinking Hedges will be the only one worth holding onto and maybe Ojo). Currently, we're having to make up our first team with guys that we can only hope will be good enough as our outflows have been far greater than our inflows as we (McInnes) let things slide for two years running. That should have been made up with by making more signings later in the window. Instead, we made those signings early in the window, locking ourselves into the hope that Gallagher, Ojo, Bryson, Hedges and Leigh will be good enough. In my opinion, what McInnes thought was a cautious and safe strategy of signing Main, Wilson and Taylor nice and early to ensure our squad remained no less than average, will actually turn out to bite him on the airse as he doesn't have the budget to get himself out of a hole.

 

You are missing my point so I’ll reword/clarify. We’ve spent a ton of money on underwhelming players, those who failed to live up to expectation. How many have exceeded expectation? I’d agree Lewis, Logan, Lowe, Cosgrove, and Rooney. Shinnie was what we expected, as was Robson solid but a declining good player, Christie a known quality too. McLean underachieved, last six months he was fantastic but we rarely saw that and more often than not should have been dropped. Maddison didn’t play much, stood out on occasion, but struggled with a physical league. We spend the third most money in the league but don’t spend well, or more appropriately, can’t get the best out of players consistently.

[RicoS321]

You are missing my point so I’ll reword/clarify. We’ve spent a ton of money on underwhelming players, those who failed to live up to expectation. How many have exceeded expectation? I’d agree Lewis, Logan, Lowe, Cosgrove, and Rooney. Shinnie was what we expected, as was Robson solid but a declining good player, Christie a known quality too. McLean underachieved, last six months he was fantastic but we rarely saw that and more often than not should have been dropped. Maddison didn’t play much, stood out on occasion, but struggled with a physical league. We spend the third most money in the league but don’t spend well, or more appropriately, can’t get the best out of players consistently.

 

I got your point, I think. I disagree about McLean, his entire final season was excellent and he had a couple of 6 months spells where he was good in prior seasons (from when he displaced Maddison and the start of the previous Rijeka season). Anyway, semantics on that one. What I was saying is that a lot of players are not bought to be the marquee signing, they are bought to be good first teamers or squad players to allow us to finish third. I actually think we've done reasonably well in the last couple of seasons in terms of getting points on the board with a very average squad. I actually think that our squad was similar to that of Hibs last season (and definitely the one before). We were probably about two players ahead of them in terms of player budget, but our awful recruitment mostly nullified that gap (as can happen when you have teams so close to one another in budget, which is what makes a league without the scum quite appealing). I'd argue that guys like Taylor, Flood, Ball, O'Connor etc exceded expectations in their one way, because we expected significantly worse but they turned out to be regulars who helped us finish 2nd or 3rd. 

[ayrshire_don74]

give  we paid a fee for mclean and he had being playing very well for st mirren i guess he met expectations, but maybe thats semantics... i see anderson has scored another hat trick today

 

 

 

 

[LA-Don]

I got your point, I think. I disagree about McLean, his entire final season was excellent and he had a couple of 6 months spells where he was good in prior seasons (from when he displaced Maddison and the start of the previous Rijeka season). Anyway, semantics on that one. What I was saying is that a lot of players are not bought to be the marquee signing, they are bought to be good first teamers or squad players to allow us to finish third. I actually think we've done reasonably well in the last couple of seasons in terms of getting points on the board with a very average squad. I actually think that our squad was similar to that of Hibs last season (and definitely the one before). We were probably about two players ahead of them in terms of player budget, but our awful recruitment mostly nullified that gap (as can happen when you have teams so close to one another in budget, which is what makes a league without the scum quite appealing). I'd argue that guys like Taylor, Flood, Ball, O'Connor etc exceded expectations in their one way, because we expected significantly worse but they turned out to be regulars who helped us finish 2nd or 3rd.

 

Your point is that the production of the role players has up until now been good and I'd agree with that. My point is that the star players/stronger players are relied upon to be good every week, that is why they make the big bucks. Strong teams have consistent starters and strong role players. Our role players are declining but it's our star players that are disappearing, and where DM has failed in signing/replacing in recent years. The only player now that appears consistently good is Joe Lewis. Who are our stars?? McKenna appears in decline of late (maybe harsh but not progressing), Cosgrove is hit and miss, McGinn is fading, Logan steadily declining, Ferguson hot/cold..... it's worrying.

[SeeBass]

I've heard from a fellow Dandy that Johnny Hayes is about to be released by Celtic. 

[Ten Caat]

I've heard from a fellow Dandy that Johnny Hayes is about to be released by Celtic.

 

I hope you aren't suggesting that we sign him if they do...…

 

 

 

[manc_don]

I hope you aren't suggesting that we sign him if they do...…

 

 

It has a DM signing written all over it 

[RicoS321]

He's an excellent player and professional. I'd have him an a heart beat. Simply because he's better than most of our other wide players.

[Tyrant]

He's an excellent player and professional. I'd have him an a heart beat. Simply because he's better than most of our other wide players.

 

Completely agree.

 

Is he as good as he was? Probably not. Better than what we have? Absolutely. I'd happily take him.

[ayrshire_don74]

sign hayes and anya also

[Ten Caat]

Completely agree.

 

Is he as good as he was? Probably not. Better than what we have? Absolutely. I'd happily take him.

 

And also on nearly treble what we were paying him before he left. Not good value for money unless Celtic were heavily subsidising the deal. I hope we steer clear.

 

[BigAl]

And also on nearly treble what we were paying him before he left. Not good value for money unless Celtic were heavily subsidising the deal. I hope we steer clear.

 

It's a NO from me

Too old and certainly doesn't represent the future for us.

Wouldn't be happy to make him one of our higher earners

[Tyrant]

And also on nearly treble what we were paying him before he left. Not good value for money unless Celtic were heavily subsidising the deal. I hope we steer clear.

 

 

He'd obviously have to be willing to slot back into the wage structure that he is fully aware of.

[Stewart]

May signed for St Johnstone.