Coronavirus

[tup1]

7 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Holy shite, you don't believe that do you? That's fairly warped logic. If I believe that anthrax will heal cancer (I suppose it would!) and I set up a stall handing out leaflets talking about this new wonder drug, I think that would be endangering the public, in spite of my retarded opinions. 

Piers Corbyn has exercised his right to free speech by lying about climate change for the last 20 years without being arrested. The man's a fucking cunt who deserves a fucking hiding. Bought and paid for little charlatan.

You seem pretty angry about him. I hold no political opinion so I'm not getting involved in arguing with you about the last 20 years. Climate change is also a matter of personal opinion.

Personally I'd never heard of him until he got arrested for saying Covid was a hoax.

You should be free to think Covid is a hoax if that's what you want to think is the point I'm making. I never mentioned my own beliefs.

The fact you want to give him a hiding having never met the bloke suggests you are very taken in by the media.

[RicoS321]

9 minutes ago, tup1 said:

You seem pretty angry about him. I hold no political opinion so I'm not getting involved in arguing with you about the last 20 years. Climate change is also a matter of personal opinion.

Personally I'd never heard of him until he got arrested for saying Covid was a hoax.

You should be free to think Covid is a hoax if that's what you want to think is the point I'm making. I never mentioned my own beliefs.

The fact you want to give him a hiding having never met the bloke suggests you are very taken in by the media.

What part of climate change is a matter of opinion? 

I've never seen him in the media until recently, I've seen his presentations on YouTube though, the boy's a cunt. 

You're not a stupid though, are you? You must see the difference between potentially spreading covid and being free to think covid is a hoax? You can freely do one without the other.

[tup1]

39 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

What part of climate change is a matter of opinion? 

I've never seen him in the media until recently, I've seen his presentations on YouTube though, the boy's a cunt. 

You're not a stupid though, are you? You must see the difference between potentially spreading covid and being free to think covid is a hoax? You can freely do one without the other.

I'm just saying that everyone should be free to hold their own opinion.

It's pretty clear than in the UK just now that is not the case. Otherwise I wouldn't be arguing with you. Social media being particularly awful for intolerance of any opinion except the mainstream one touted by the media. Covid has exacerbated that.

Climate change is a matter of opinion. You or I can't prove that the planet is heating up. You have to take other peoples word for that. Some folk say it is, some folk say it isn't. I've got no opinion either way on that either. But everyone is allowed to hold their own opinion on that without censure.

Same as if someone thought the earth was flat. You can think that if you want to, and indeed say it if you want to. Folk might laugh at your beliefs but you wouldn't be getting prosecuted for it.

Denying Covid is a different story. It's being treated like holocaust denial.

[RicoS321]

5 minutes ago, tup1 said:

I'm just saying that everyone should be free to hold their own opinion.

It's pretty clear than in the UK just now that is not the case. Otherwise I wouldn't be arguing with you. Social media being particularly awful for intolerance of any opinion except the mainstream one touted by the media. Covid has exacerbated that.

Climate change is a matter of opinion. You or I can't prove that the planet is heating up. You have to take other peoples word for that. Some folk say it is, some folk say it isn't. I've got no opinion either way on that either. But everyone is allowed to hold their own opinion on that without censure.

Same as if someone thought the earth was flat. You can think that if you want to, and indeed say it if you want to. Folk might laugh at your beliefs but you wouldn't be getting prosecuted for it.

Denying Covid is a different story. It's being treated like holocaust denial.

You're not saying that anyone should be free to hold their own opinion. You're saying that people should be allowed to act on that opinion regardless of its effect on others. Corybn has not been prevented from exercising freedom of speech. He could easily have made his points in a group, maintaining social distancing etc. 

You also seem to be mixing fact with opinion and belief in some bizarre fashion. They're not interchangeable. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and nobody is attempting to prevent that. Just don't be surprised if someone calls you out for being a dick, like in Corbyn's case. 

Denying covid is very similar to denying the Holocaust, that's why. You'd have to be a fucking moron to believe that either didn't occur. Again, if that's your belief then you're free to hold it, but just expect to be ridiculed or treated as a bad actor for having those views. It's quite acceptable.

[tup1]

10 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

You're not saying that anyone should be free to hold their own opinion. You're saying that people should be allowed to act on that opinion regardless of its effect on others. Corybn has not been prevented from exercising freedom of speech. He could easily have made his points in a group, maintaining social distancing etc. 

You also seem to be mixing fact with opinion and belief in some bizarre fashion. They're not interchangeable. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and nobody is attempting to prevent that. Just don't be surprised if someone calls you out for being a dick, like in Corbyn's case. 

Denying covid is very similar to denying the Holocaust, that's why. You'd have to be a fucking moron to believe that either didn't occur. Again, if that's your belief then you're free to hold it, but just expect to be ridiculed or treated as a bad actor for having those views. It's quite acceptable.

I've not really said anything about my own belief. I prefer to sit on the fence on most issues and not be media led is about as much as I'll say on my own opinion.

I just back the guy Corbyn, or anyone else, to be allowed to deny this flu bug is real if he wants to. So he's an idiot for thinking that. So what. Let him be that idiot if he wants to be. It's not harming anyone else for him to think that. Censorship and propaganda go hand in hand.

Also, it's hardly on a par with denial of mass murder in concentration camps. That's a dangerous viewpoint to hold.

 

[tom_widdows]

Just to let you know

In the UK Holocaust denial is not actually a crime. You are free to simply say outloud that you don't believe a mass racial clensing happened in Germany, Austria and parts of occupied Poland, Czech Republic and Ukraine.
Some recent polls suggest that at least 5% of the UK population don't believe it happened and tragically and scarily that figure is only going to rise as the last of the survivors and WW2 soldiers die out.

What you cannot do is picket synagogues, post videos/ blogs/ podcasts, or stand on the street handing out leaflets which insight racial hatred because that falls under existing UK laws regarding hate speech, racism, breach of the peace etc.

Several months ago there was a preacher outside Buchanan galleries in Glasgow with a small PA system shouting various things about christianity (similar to the old man who used to stand outside M&S in Aberdeen at Weekends). It was all fairly generic stuff then suddenly he started going on about the 'evils of homosexuality' at which point passers by stopped ignoring him and things started to get rather heated. He was eventually escorted away by the police. He was free to think what he likes about homosexuality, but what he was not free to do was start shouting them through a PA in a busy shopping street thereby antagonising members of the public leading to potential civil unrest. 

 

5 hours ago, tup1 said:

I'll explain it to you then. Nicola is distributing daily propaganda to us all.

Those are two examples of people who disagree with this daily propaganda and were either arrested or visited by the police as a result of their opinions. 

Opinions which they are supposed to be free to hold.

 

This liverpool hairdresser you are refering to?
Is this the one in which they declared they would not follow any of the social distancing protocols, staff would not wear masks etc. Not only that they openly boasted about it with posters and social media?
The same one that the police 'visited' along with Environmental Health Officers the latter of which have the power to shut the business down, NOT for the owners beliefs, but for their failure to comply with government guidance, the health & safety at work act, and for endangering their customers?


 

Edited September 11, 2020 by tom_widdows

[tup1]

It should be up to the individual business what they do, obviously. 'Enter at your own risk' on the door and away you go. The same should apply to football stadiums. That way anyone who enters either agrees with the policy or couldn't care less about it. If they put signs like that up at Pittodrie and opened the gates we would get a big crowd.

At least the BBC have put an end to Nicola's daily briefings.

This virus is so deadly that you need a test to see if you have it. Then when the test confirms you do have it, despite feeling no ill effects whatsoever, you are 'asymptomatic'. Hmm.

Let's shutdown both society and any dissent for this.

Then you get a mandatory vaccine. Again, hmm. 90 million of them sold in the UK alone. Follow the money trail.

 

 

[tom_widdows]

1 minute ago, tup1 said:

It should be up to the individual business what they do, obviously. 'Enter at your own risk' on the door and away you go. 

It should be up to individual business owners to choose to comply with the Health & safety at work act?
 

4 minutes ago, tup1 said:

The same should apply to football stadiums. That way anyone who enters either agrees with the policy or couldn't care less about it. If they put signs like that up at Pittodrie and opened the gates we would get a big crowd.

Like Hillsborough 1989?

[tup1]

10 minutes ago, tom_widdows said:

It should be up to individual business owners to choose to comply with the Health & safety at work act?
 

Like Hillsborough 1989?

I'm talking about Covid specifically here. Of course business owners should have to comply with whatever Health & Safety act. But if the owner of the business has an opinion like the barber in Liverpool, on Covid and it's virulence or otherwise, and the customer agrees with them, and wants to enter, for me there's no issue. Let them both crack on.

In fact, if someone wants to catch this disease, for instance to build up their own immunity to it, I'd be happy for them to do so as well. All this you can only do this that and the next in groups of whatever is sinister. A herd immunity type strategy would be a much more appealing prospect for almost everyone. But we don't have a choice in the matter.

So this begs the question, what exactly are we being protected from here?

The Hillsborough point is not relevant to the point I'm making, I mean open the stadium for general use as it was before, and let people enter at their own risk (of catching Covid). I'd go if they did that. 

 

[RicoS321]

14 minutes ago, tup1 said:

It should be up to the individual business what they do, obviously. 'Enter at your own risk' on the door and away you go. The same should apply to football stadiums. That way anyone who enters either agrees with the policy or couldn't care less about it. If they put signs like that up at Pittodrie and opened the gates we would get a big crowd.

At least the BBC have put an end to Nicola's daily briefings.

This virus is so deadly that you need a test to see if you have it. Then when the test confirms you do have it, despite feeling no ill effects whatsoever, you are 'asymptomatic'. Hmm.

Let's shutdown both society and any dissent for this.

Then you get a mandatory vaccine. Again, hmm. 90 million of them sold in the UK alone. Follow the money trail.

 

 

Fuck me. Can we assume that the virus is real, that the infection rate doubles and that it kills 1-2% of people or 5% if hospitals get overwhelmed for the purposes of this discussion? Those will be roughly the figures that the government is working to, so for our understanding, we can use those figures. I am not asking you to believe them.

Assuming the above, do you see the issue with allowing a stadium full of people and businesses to not follow the rules? Or do you think that 20k people at pittodrie could avoid contact with people who might also be in contact with someone who is in contact with someone at high risk of death from covid? 

[RicoS321]

4 minutes ago, tup1 said:

I'm talking about Covid specifically here. Of course business owners should have to comply with whatever Health & Safety act. But if the owner of the business has an opinion like the barber in Liverpool, on Covid and it's virulence or otherwise, and the customer agrees with them, and wants to enter, for me there's no issue. Let them both crack on.

But it's not both of them though, that's the fucking point. It's the person behind them in the shop or next to them on the bus. Then the unsuspecting relatives of those folk. Were you fucking asleep when 60k people died because the government tried herd immunity? And failed. Of course individual people don't get to choose herd immunity, it's all or nothing. That's why it's herd immunity. Your arguments are circular, you must realise that?

[tup1]

 

13 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Fuck me. Can we assume that the virus is real, that the infection rate doubles and that it kills 1-2% of people or 5% if hospitals get overwhelmed for the purposes of this discussion? Those will be roughly the figures that the government is working to, so for our understanding, we can use those figures. I am not asking you to believe them.

Assuming the above, do you see the issue with allowing a stadium full of people and businesses to not follow the rules? Or do you think that 20k people at pittodrie could avoid contact with people who might also be in contact with someone who is in contact with someone at high risk of death from covid? 

The chief medical officers in both England and Scotland blatantly did not follow the rules they helped set out for everyone.

Given they will probably know more about it all than you or I, we can't assume anything.

Sinister

You should be more worried about the above than killing your granny. We were promised dead bodies in the street when this crap was enacted. The Nightingale has been empty ever since.

Do you never get the slightest inkling you are being lied to on an epic scale?

 

 

[tom_widdows]

In 1939 would you have been saying the same thing about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Powers_(Defence)_Act_1939#:~:text=The Emergency Powers (Defence) Act,to prosecute the war effectively.

[tup1]

Well I wasn’t alive in 1939 but I can see the parallels. We are on a war footing for sure, I agree with that.
 

My only question is why we are here. You could call me a conscientious objector to this imposed status.

 

[RicoS321]

5 hours ago, tup1 said:

 

The chief medical officers in both England and Scotland blatantly did not follow the rules they helped set out for everyone.

Given they will probably know more about it all than you or I, we can't assume anything.

Sinister

You should be more worried about the above than killing your granny. We were promised dead bodies in the street when this crap was enacted. The Nightingale has been empty ever since.

Do you never get the slightest inkling you are being lied to on an epic scale?

 

 

No we were not promised bodies in the street. We had 60K deaths inclusive of a lockdown. The suggestion was that it would be closer to 500K without one. The infection rate and death rate was doubling every four days in the early part of lockdown until measures were taken. That 500K seems reasonably valid. The nightingale hospitals were a show pony from an insipid government built on PR. The chief medical officers were human beings who made mistakes like the rest of us. The point is to limit those mistakes, not eliminate them. 

You've nailed it with your last sentence. The scale at which you'd have to engineer something like that makes conspiracy impossible. There are plenty of opportunists in the UK government and their close mates who are directly benefiting from this crisis, but opportunism is exactly what it is, they've not conspired with the rest of the world to fake it. So, no, I don't even have the slightest inkling that I am being lied to. If I was, then it would be at such a mind-blowing level of conspiracy that I would be completely fine with it, as there's no chance I'd argue with someone who could pull off something like that.

[tom_widdows]

42 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

The nightingale hospitals were a show pony from an insipid government built on PR. 

Build 'temporary' hospitals with hundreds (even thousands of beds) but at no point atempt to recruit hundreds of extra qualified staff to actually run them instead asking people to come out of retirement/ volunteer and then take staff from existing hospitals so in effect you have actually hindered the health service from doing their job
Then when the beds go unoccupied (massive factor being you can't just dump sick people in a hospital bed in modified aircraft hanger when there are no nurses, doctors, porters etc to care for them) you get your little right wing backbench fuckwits to start using their lack of use as an example of 'how the NHS wastes money' to further the campaign to get rid of it and fully privatise healthcare.

Eventually The likes of the Express and Mail will eventually pile on and the next thing there is another referendum asking 'the people' if the horrible wasteful NHS full of workshy overpaid doctors and nurses should be kept, or replaced with the wonderful, streamlined and efficient PHS. 
The morons will be sold on the idea of only having to wait days for a vital operation or physio as opposed to months/ years, an extra £200 per year tax cut, and that it will 'take back control' from all those horrible wasteful nae selfish health trusts who claimed they were underfunded but infact just hoarded money rather than spending it on facilities and staff.
50.1% for the PHS which is a MASSIVE majority and THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE and there will be cheering in the streets with union flags and bunting.....
Then the reality will set in and lots who voted for it will say 'I didnt think it was a real vote so I votes for the PHS as a protest', or 'I didn't know it meant I'd have to pay £50 just to get inside A&E (£100 in London)' whereas others will go into extreme denial and even get aggressive towards NHS voters.

Tory wet dream

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by tom_widdows

[tup1]

8 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

No we were not promised bodies in the street. We had 60K deaths inclusive of a lockdown. The suggestion was that it would be closer to 500K without one. The infection rate and death rate was doubling every four days in the early part of lockdown until measures were taken. That 500K seems reasonably valid. The nightingale hospitals were a show pony from an insipid government built on PR. The chief medical officers were human beings who made mistakes like the rest of us. The point is to limit those mistakes, not eliminate them. 

You've nailed it with your last sentence. The scale at which you'd have to engineer something like that makes conspiracy impossible. There are plenty of opportunists in the UK government and their close mates who are directly benefiting from this crisis, but opportunism is exactly what it is, they've not conspired with the rest of the world to fake it. So, no, I don't even have the slightest inkling that I am being lied to. If I was, then it would be at such a mind-blowing level of conspiracy that I would be completely fine with it, as there's no chance I'd argue with someone who could pull off something like that.

The statistics are all made up. I have a pal whose Dad was put down on death certificate as having died from Covid. He’s not happy about it. He died of a heart attack.
 

60k folk would have died anyway. Extrapolate the above worldwide and I have just proved to you how easy it is to lie on an epic scale.

You are not allowed to publicly challenge this lie so that sort of proves it is a lie. You have lost your freedom because some people died of old age and ill health. 
 

You seem happy to go along with it all, that is what is required for the lie to gain credence, acquiescence. Human beings are incredibly gullible is an unfortunate fact. The conspiracy doesn’t have to be grand at all, you’ve just been conditioned to think that.

[RicoS321]

2 hours ago, tup1 said:

The statistics are all made up. I have a pal whose Dad was put down on death certificate as having died from Covid. He’s not happy about it. He died of a heart attack.
 

60k folk would have died anyway. Extrapolate the above worldwide and I have just proved to you how easy it is to lie on an epic scale.

You are not allowed to publicly challenge this lie so that sort of proves it is a lie. You have lost your freedom because some people died of old age and ill health. 
 

You seem happy to go along with it all, that is what is required for the lie to gain credence, acquiescence. Human beings are incredibly gullible is an unfortunate fact. The conspiracy doesn’t have to be grand at all, you’ve just been conditioned to think that.

You clearly don't understand basic statistics, which doesn't help you. You've most certainly not proven anything, other than you don't understand excess deaths and that you don't understand the effect of a lockdown on those.

As we've established, you are allowed to publicly challenge that.

We are gullible, which is why it's important to look at facts rather than anecdotes about yer mate's da'. In order for it to be a conspiracy, there'd have to be a motive, somebody directly benefiting, somebody directly controlling and so on. Who do you think concocted this worldwide pandemic? How many people would have to go along with it in every single nation in the world in order for it not to unravel? How many people would have to keep that secret? Let's assume you're right, can you tell us how such a simple conspiracy could be conceived?

[tup1]

You said yourself that those who are engineering the conspiracy are those who stand to directly benefit from it. You appear to think this is pure luck and they just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

As for this R number rubbish, words fail me. It’s all bullshit. 
 

You break the rules, you are a Covidiot, and can be fined £10k. Cummings breaks them and he’s testing his eyes. 
 

Every gathering is an illegal gathering now. Look at Melbourne. No protest is allowed. For something which doesn’t exist.

You are being played like a fiddle. There’s a war on, you just can’t see the enemy.

[RicoS321]

4 hours ago, tup1 said:

You said yourself that those who are engineering the conspiracy are those who stand to directly benefit from it. You appear to think this is pure luck and they just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

As for this R number rubbish, words fail me. It’s all bullshit. 
 

You break the rules, you are a Covidiot, and can be fined £10k. Cummings breaks them and he’s testing his eyes. 
 

Every gathering is an illegal gathering now. Look at Melbourne. No protest is allowed. For something which doesn’t exist.

You are being played like a fiddle. There’s a war on, you just can’t see the enemy.

No I didn't say that. I said that opportunists were taking advantage of the situation. The alternative is that Matt Hancock and fucking Deloitte have engineered a fake global pandemic in return for £250M worth of contracts. They've involved the entire NHS testing organisation and multiple laboratories and done so in collaboration with their counterparts in every country in the world. Have you ever worked with Deloitte before? You're theories break down within a second of basic thought, but you throw in known truths like Cummings' trip to try to make it sound vaguely plausible whilst going way off argument.

The thing is, I may be being played like a fiddle, but the notion that you have any understanding of how and why that is being done is ridiculous. You're scattergunning the fuck out of it in the hope you might get something right so you can come back and prove your prescience. It's frustrating, because there is actual conspiring that goes on that when pointed out is thrown into the conspiracy nutjob basket that you've conveniently woven. There are investigative journalists out there who must get seriously fucked off with your unevidenced shite - the boy who cried wolf.

[tup1]

I just believe what I see, not what I hear.

Do you know anyone healthy who has died of this deadly disease?

Nor did I say I knew more. I just said the lie needs to be believed in the first place in order to gain credence.

Coronavirus has a patent number. What does that tell you?

The military games also took place in Wuhan in October last year.  Hmm.
 

It’s up to you whether you want to join the dots or not. But my approach is not scattergun. I’ve said you should be sceptical of what you’re being told for a number of reasons which I’ve explained to you already.

Death would be preferable to living like this indefinitely.

[tom_widdows]

You do know that Coronavirus is the generic term for what this type of virus is?
It is called Covid 19 because it first appeared in 2019.

The following are also Coronaviruses:
Common Cold
Flu
SARS
Hepatitis C
Ebola
Rabies
and of course two of the favourites of the Anti-vaccination lobby - Polio & Measles

Do you believe those viruses exist?

I'm interested to learn more about the theories and opinions you are posting here such as the apparent patent number for Covid-19. If you have seen this patent number can you share it with us including the description of what the patent is for. All the patents I've found which mention coronavirus relate to vaccinnes for the viruses listed above?

Also can you elaborate on what you think the end-game for these lockdowns are and the suggestions of who are the people behind them. 

Also have you ever read any of Jon Ronson's books?

[tup1]

3 hours ago, tom_widdows said:

You do know that Coronavirus is the generic term for what this type of virus is?
It is called Covid 19 because it first appeared in 2019.

The following are also Coronaviruses:
Common Cold
Flu
SARS
Hepatitis C
Ebola
Rabies
and of course two of the favourites of the Anti-vaccination lobby - Polio & Measles

Do you believe those viruses exist?

I'm interested to learn more about the theories and opinions you are posting here such as the apparent patent number for Covid-19. If you have seen this patent number can you share it with us including the description of what the patent is for. All the patents I've found which mention coronavirus relate to vaccinnes for the viruses listed above?

Also can you elaborate on what you think the end-game for these lockdowns are and the suggestions of who are the people behind them. 

Also have you ever read any of Jon Ronson's books?

Aye I’ve read Jon Ronson.

The end game is mass vaccination, clearly.

[LA-Don]

Anyone anti-vax here? It's my understanding it takes on average 10 years to fully develop a vaccine and steps are being skipped with a covid vaccine. There have also been billions paid in vaccine lawsuits in the US for the damage vaccines have caused. It's also my understanding that flu shots are based on 4 types of flu and that this years flu may well be different, and as stated on the CDC (center for disease control in the US) website, "this season's flu vaccines were updated to better match viruses expected to be circulating in the United States." It's a prediction. Is the covid vaccine a prediction since there are many coronaviruses?

Why would a vaccine be the solution, it's being rushed in as an estimate when we still don't fully understand (the long term effects of) the virus? The sceptics believe the health industry in the US is a cash cow first and there are plenty of financial winners if a vaccine is released.

[Kowalski]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/21/scottish-ministers-considering-strict-new-covid-rules-leak-reveals

 

Although, in general, I’m happy to listen to scientists rather than politicians, I think there will be large swathes of the public who will need some convincing to follow new restrictions given the low death rate.