Coronavirus

[manc_don]

13 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

You're mixing up two things here though. There is a lot of data in the public domain from Europe, Israel and Asia (and US of course) that shows the efficacy of vaccination. It does reduce the risk of hospitalisation and death and also the reduces your ability to infect others. It does so in exactly the manner it was suggested it would. The evidence to back this up is provided by the fact that you need a booster after the effects wear off after 6 months.

There was never any data that suggested you couldn't transmit covid having been vaccinated and hasn't been intimated since very early in the vaccination process (as soon as the data was available, it was clear that covid could still be transmitted despite vaccination). It's frustrating that people are still perpetuating the myth, and it almost always seems to be from people saying "you told us we couldn't pass on covid, what's the point in vaccination?", rather than from people advocating vaccination. It's basic straw man arguing, and it's deliberate. They throw up a "fact" and cite as evidence of manipulation or change, when it's not the case.

By getting vaccinated, you reduce the likelihood of infecting others, you are not - for the most part if you're healthy - doing it to protect yourself. I think if you test yourself regularly, wear a mask indoors, socially distance among those you don't know and let those you do, know your vaccine status I think that's just as good as getting vaccinated in the main. I think forcing people to get vaccinated is wrong. It doesn't prevent spread (it slows it), and there is no value at which herd immunity from covid can be established. Our antipodean friends putting arbitrary percentages on the number of people who need to be vaccinated before certain measures are lifted is demonstrably bollocks, and it is their governments who should be held to account for this and not the minority of people who have chosen not to be vaccinated.

It’s not demonstrably bollocks though is it? We don’t have thousands of people dying unnecessarily a week and have almost lived normal lives for the most part since the first outbreak. We have a government for the large part have done the sociably responsible thing of looking after it’s people. They’re far from perfect (I think the borders should still open as they originally said), however the percentages were there to try and get as many people vaccinated as possible and we hit them. Even parts of the country that were unlikely. Certainly in NZ we don’t have hundreds of icu beds at our disposal, so adding covid into the mix, stretching a health care system that is already stretched is not a sensible option. It’s all been about public safety. Should Auckland have dropped levels sooner? Yes and no. 

I get there are vaccine hesitant people and LA, I don’t envy you being in the land of misinformation. It’s increasingly hard to find reliable sources of information, and I can’t imagine being in the home of it is any easier. These are not new vaccines, the basis has existed for many a year. The data shows it works. Do you question the flu shot? in theory, that’s  something you need every year. The way I see the vaccine is like wearing a seatbelt whilst your driving. You could still die but your chances of survival are far higher by wearing one. 

[BigAl]

Fuck sake just sat and read through the last page or so that has recently been posted on here.

I'll be perfectly honest, I'm not what I consider to be a unintelligent human being but the GIF below sums it up.

Good to see a passionate debate taking place though guys 

I took my vaccines as much for others around me as for myself. 

 

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, manc_don said:

It’s not demonstrably bollocks though is it? We don’t have thousands of people dying unnecessarily a week and have almost lived normal lives for the most part since the first outbreak. We have a government for the large part have done the sociably responsible thing of looking after it’s people. They’re far from perfect (I think the borders should still open as they originally said), however the percentages were there to try and get as many people vaccinated as possible and we hit them. Even parts of the country that were unlikely. Certainly in NZ we don’t have hundreds of icu beds at our disposal, so adding covid into the mix, stretching a health care system that is already stretched is not a sensible option. It’s all been about public safety. Should Auckland have dropped levels sooner? Yes and no. 

Yes, it is demonstrably bollocks. Putting a figure on the number of people to be vaccinated before allowing travel, removing restrictions etc. is a political decision not backed by any science. At one point I heard an Australian politician say that they wouldn't open up parts of society until 90% vaccination had been reached (they were in the high 80s). Where's the justification for that figure? It's arbitrary. 

I think the Australian/NZ approach has been by in large excellent, and it shows in both their low number of deaths and economic performance. However, beyond the drive to get the majority of people vaccinated, what happens after is overtly political, demonising and clear in the language being used by you and haardon. I find it strange that you show sympathy with LA don, yet show such lack of compassion when discussing people who haven't been vaccinated as a whole. The number of people who are actually "anti vaccers" is exceptionally small. The overwhelming majority of people unvaccinated in both our countries are like LA Don, who have clearly expressed doubts and fears. They don't fit nicely into a box, that can be labelled "them" and dealt with in one way manner. They are not killing millions, spreading a disease that would be otherwise unspreadable or preventing people from seeing loved ones (the latter is entirely a government decision). 

Your language is something we've seen before, and that's why I have issue with it. In the UK, after the banks and the country's wealthy utterly destroyed our fictional economy, the blame was quickly shifted to the scroungers (not those bailed out by hundreds of billions of printed money I should add). Every tabloid was brought to the cause as the government labelled everyone on benefits a scrounger. Call me Dave Cameron could be heard in every single speech saying "hard working British families", by implication: the scroungers were lazy, feckless, scum. It was, and still is, indoctrinated into the public. When asked about the number of people on benefits gaming the system, the British public all thought the figures were between 30-50%, when in reality they were between 1-2%. They fell for the propaganda. The stigma of claiming benefits (a large percentage of claimants are in work) is very obvious today because language matters and government's language more than most. You're being tricked into blaming unvaccinated people for your government's decisions because it's politically expedient for them to do so. The overwhelming majority of unvaccinated people are like LA Don and not the benefit scrounger equivalent. Just as 99% of migrants are not in the UK/Australia/wherever to do anything other than work. It's all part of the same approach to debate and discussion, and just because it suits your beliefs at a particular time, it doesn't mean you should take advantage of it. It's exactly this dumbing down of conversation into thems' and us's that creates the doubts and fears in the first place.

[HaarDon]

54 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Yes, it is demonstrably bollocks. Putting a figure on the number of people to be vaccinated before allowing travel, removing restrictions etc. is a political decision not backed by any science. At one point I heard an Australian politician say that they wouldn't open up parts of society until 90% vaccination had been reached (they were in the high 80s). Where's the justification for that figure? It's arbitrary. 

I think the Australian/NZ approach has been by in large excellent, and it shows in both their low number of deaths and economic performance. However, beyond the drive to get the majority of people vaccinated, what happens after is overtly political, demonising and clear in the language being used by you and haardon. I find it strange that you show sympathy with LA don, yet show such lack of compassion when discussing people who haven't been vaccinated as a whole. The number of people who are actually "anti vaccers" is exceptionally small. The overwhelming majority of people unvaccinated in both our countries are like LA Don, who have clearly expressed doubts and fears. They don't fit nicely into a box, that can be labelled "them" and dealt with in one way manner. They are not killing millions, spreading a disease that would be otherwise unspreadable or preventing people from seeing loved ones (the latter is entirely a government decision). 

Your language is something we've seen before, and that's why I have issue with it. In the UK, after the banks and the country's wealthy utterly destroyed our fictional economy, the blame was quickly shifted to the scroungers (not those bailed out by hundreds of billions of printed money I should add). Every tabloid was brought to the cause as the government labelled everyone on benefits a scrounger. Call me Dave Cameron could be heard in every single speech saying "hard working British families", by implication: the scroungers were lazy, feckless, scum. It was, and still is, indoctrinated into the public. When asked about the number of people on benefits gaming the system, the British public all thought the figures were between 30-50%, when in reality they were between 1-2%. They fell for the propaganda. The stigma of claiming benefits (a large percentage of claimants are in work) is very obvious today because language matters and government's language more than most. You're being tricked into blaming unvaccinated people for your government's decisions because it's politically expedient for them to do so. The overwhelming majority of unvaccinated people are like LA Don and not the benefit scrounger equivalent. Just as 99% of migrants are not in the UK/Australia/wherever to do anything other than work. It's all part of the same approach to debate and discussion, and just because it suits your beliefs at a particular time, it doesn't mean you should take advantage of it. It's exactly this dumbing down of conversation into thems' and us's that creates the doubts and fears in the first place.

The Queensland government are responsible for keeping Queensland's safe and healthy in relation to covid.

They have made mistakes of course like every government does/has.

So when should they allow interstate travel into QLD?

They have to set some figures and an 80% majority is deemed enough to have certain restrictions lessened and their citizens safe.

At 90%, travellers from around the world will be allowed into QLD.

They need to have some guidelines to allow venues to reopen and encourage non vaccinated to get the jabs.

Every government is controlling.It's part of their job.

Therefore by not adhering to these fair government rules they actually ARE stopping families seeing their loved ones.

I've yet to hear a decent argument from citizens refusing to get a jab.

Nobody here has.

We are all scared and fed up.

We all want normality back and the only way to get that is to get nearly all populations vaccinated ASAP.

It's not all the fault of anti vaxxers and people refusing to wear masks but by fuck they aren't helping.

 

 

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, HaarDon said:

The Queensland government are responsible for keeping Queensland's safe and healthy in relation to covid.

They have made mistakes of course like every government does/has.

So when should they allow interstate travel into QLD?

They have to set some figures and an 80% majority is deemed enough to have certain restrictions lessened and their citizens safe.

At 90%, travellers from around the world will be allowed into QLD.

They need to have some guidelines to allow venues to reopen and encourage non vaccinated to get the jabs.

Every government is controlling.It's part of their job.

Therefore by not adhering to these fair government rules they actually ARE stopping families seeing their loved ones.

I've yet to hear a decent argument from citizens refusing to get a jab.

Nobody here has.

We are all scared and fed up.

We all want normality back and the only way to get that is to get nearly all populations vaccinated ASAP.

It's not all the fault of anti vaxxers and people refusing to wear masks but by fuck they aren't helping.

 

 

A good, reasoned response. I disagree, of course!

The issue I have is that the 80 and 90% figures you quote have no basis in science. It's the point at which your government has decided to use coercion as a tactic rather than persuasion and, in my opinion, is a fairly rocky road to go down. I'm equally as unsupportive of the Scottish government's vaccine passport pish for what it's worth. The Queensland government could easily have just backed down and accepted its figures (nice round figures, coincidentally) were arbitrary and subtly changed tack. I mean, that's basically the one thing that politicians are good for (or bad for), changing their mind and pretending that's what they intended all along. But they're pushing ahead and letting a minority take the blame for a government mandate, doubling down on a random number. You're saying that these are fair government rules, but that is entirely subjective. Objectively, they are not fair, because they can't be backed up by anything. You then to back it up with rhetoric and division, which is likely something that suits a government in order to distract from other areas. 

It'll be interesting to see how climate change plays out with you guys. An anti vaccer equivalent might be those people who fly halfway across the world to visit family and friends. They'll (or you'll) be the ones that your government take the opportunity to demonise to hide their own failures.

[HaarDon]

7 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

An anti vaccer equivalent might be those people who fly halfway across the world to visit family and friends. They'll (or you'll) be the ones that your government take the opportunity to demonise to hide their own failures.

Why?

If I'm double vaxxed or even have a booster and self isolate when I return then I'm doing the right thing.

[BigAl]

49 minutes ago, HaarDon said:

Why?

If I'm double vaxxed or even have a booster and self isolate when I return then I'm doing the right thing.

Can't help but think that your selective quoting there has made you miss Rico's point 

[HaarDon]

8 minutes ago, BigAl said:

Can't help but think that your selective quoting there has made you miss Rico's point 

?

[RicoS321]

4 minutes ago, HaarDon said:

?

It's cool, you missed the final point I was making, I probably didn't make it clear. I'm saying that, beyond this pandemic, there'll be the next thing. It might be climate change, as an example. The people who are the demons in that situation will be those with high "unnecessary" emissions. We know that actual real blame should be with the government (Scott Morrison in your case, without doubt) who have deliberately worked against the science. Once again, they'll single out different people or activities and really go to town on them, deflecting all the way. They'll be the new anti vaccers, the new scapegoat. Government failures will be ignored and the opportunity to increase mass surveillance and the crack down on all protest. You might just as easily become the next in line (more likely it'll be the poor again), because that's what happens when debate is deliberately dumbed down and nuance and discussion removed.

[BigAl]

52 minutes ago, HaarDon said:

?

Rico has covered it but by missing out the first sentence of his last paragraph you have missed the point he was making 

[manc_don]

2 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

It's cool, you missed the final point I was making, I probably didn't make it clear. I'm saying that, beyond this pandemic, there'll be the next thing. It might be climate change, as an example. The people who are the demons in that situation will be those with high "unnecessary" emissions. We know that actual real blame should be with the government (Scott Morrison in your case, without doubt) who have deliberately worked against the science. Once again, they'll single out different people or activities and really go to town on them, deflecting all the way. They'll be the new anti vaccers, the new scapegoat. Government failures will be ignored and the opportunity to increase mass surveillance and the crack down on all protest. You might just as easily become the next in line (more likely it'll be the poor again), because that's what happens when debate is deliberately dumbed down and nuance and discussion removed.

Scomo is scum. Nothing but a conservative yank wannabe. His attitude (much like most of Aussie politicians) to climate change is disgusting. I don’t actually think we need to look at the effects of how it’s going to play out, we saw it two years ago with the vast bush fires and I truly hope the aussies don’t forget how he behaved. But that’s a separate issue.

Apologies, when you said they were demonstrably bollocks, I thought you meant the outcomes. The figures that Aussie state / NZ govt set were to protect the health services from being overwhelmed. Whilst not backed by science per-se (and therefore arbitrary) it  became clear herd immunity wasn’t going to be achieved at a lower figure as well as airlines likely requiring vaccination before flying. All their alert levels relating back to these numbers were just trying to limit spread. An ultra cautious approach, one which allowed us to eliminate alpha and significantly limit delta.

Whilst my tone may concern you, this is based on what I’ve seen personally, not the government messaging / protocols. I’ve seen them attacking staff (both physically and verbally), I’ve seen the vandalised shops, I’ve seen the selfishness of a grand mother who who faked a vaccine passport, lied their way down the country,  despite the request of her son and daughter in law not to see them or visit some of their family as they’ve a 3 week old baby. This is her choice. She has no logical reason for not getting vaccinated apart from becoming magnetic, anti 5G and pro conspiracy theory . it’s worth noting for context that she was also a twat before covid, so it’s not a case of needing to feel sorry for her. The people that attend the anti vax protests here are the vulnerable (in mind), the mob and the more contrarian thinkers. They’ve been encouraged not to get vaccinated by various pseudo religious leaders which is not seen before moving here. The opposition are trying to make this political by trying to oppose this that and the other, but all it’s done is show them up to be pro big business.

there’s a big difference between vaccine hesitant and anti vax. The latter have proven themselves to be selfish and awful human beings. How to make social media companies accountable for the amount of misinformation and push they allow on their platforms is something that needs to be discussed. How governments can do this, I don’t know but whilst the number of Ill-informed is low, they are very vocal. I guess I’m more exposed to the numbers of them than some others may be as I live in an area with a low vaccination rate, as well as being close to / working in the capital, I see a higher proportion. 

im hoping the above is coherent, buts its been a very early start.

[Madbadteacher]

I'm fully vaccinated and boosted (boostered?)

Just as well, several people close to me have been positive, one of my stepdaughter's currently has her fiance in the ICU with severe chest/breathing issues. Definitely a close contact for me.

Several students of mine have been sick/tested positive. (BTW if I wasn't vaccinated I'd have to test every week in order to be able to teach "in person")

 

Me? Not even a sniffle (which considering the damage I must have done to my system with decades of alcohol abuse) is pretty amazing to me. Is it the vaccination? I don't know? But then again I had so many as a kid in the 1960's and never had polio, whooping cough etc I'm kinda inclined to believe that it could be.

 

I'm not vilifying anti-vaxxers, your choice, just adding my personal perspective.

[LA-Don]

I hate to call this 'enjoyable' debate and discussion given the nightmare many have experienced and continue to battle, but I do appreciate this. However, many act like people have just decided to refuse a vaccine that's been around forever with a proven successful and safe history. This situation is unique. The people I know who have not taken the vaccine are also not crazy anti vaxxers; they are educated, all concerned that these are still new drugs, experimental vaccines, with minimal history, and there's problems with them. These were all vaccines just approved, fast tracked, with steps skipped in approval. These were not developed like normal vaccines, plus mRNA vaccines are not normal or common vaccines.

What has happened to date doesn't provide reassurance. People are also protesting the mandating and forcing of a new vaccine that is damaging people. That's not fake news. So many are worried about covid yet slam those worried about vaccine damage. I don't understand why there is concern for one group of people but not for another huge group of people.

We have the J&J vaccine being safe then unsafe. It kills some people. We have blood clotting, we have inflamed hearts, we have neurological issues, people displaying symptoms mirroring the early stages of MS, and more. I shared my cancer concern. Again, this is not fake, and I hear more of this because my wife works with and knows doctors dealing with this. This is not one or two people, it's tons of people worldwide. And these people are being cancelled, shut out, ignored, and told to fuck off.  It's not such a small number that should simply be brushed off.

Had my wife not worked with doctors, holistic doctors, and in integrative medicine, we'd be none the wiser too. You don't get most of this information on mainstream media. The media is pushing one side and doing their best to totally discredit another real story. You need to know where to read and look but it's out there. I personally know someone who died suddenly two weeks after the vaccine, and two others currently battling vaccine damage. I referenced my sister and how her cancer treatment stopped working after she was vaccinated. That could be coincidence, I note that, but had she cancer and covid it would have been called a covid death. I don't know a single person who has died of covid (obviously people have) plus every single person I know who has had covid experienced full recovery.

Some of you have had covid or know people who have had covid. The huge majority are just fine now, yet many of the vaccine damaged still have complications and challenges long past covid sufferers being back to full health. Some of this vaccine damage appears permanent. And there are deaths. Are we concerned for everyone or just one group?

My friend I referenced yesterday is an nationally established and very well connected doctor who knows where to go for help - she was shut out by the FDA, the CDC, NIH, all of the major drug companies, and so many other medical agencies and experts. Nobody in positions of power are willing to help people who have been vaccine damaged. Why aren't these people being given help, even recognized?

I referenced Jeremy Chardy and Eric Clapton having lost their careers from COVID vaccine damage since you'd know their names. Why isn't there concern for people like them? Why aren't people demanding answers? I don't blame Djokovic for not taking the vaccine when he's seen a similarly heathy, similar aged close friend just lose his livelihood and career. 

From what we are seeing, the vaccines have had success but they are not performing as hoped. That doesn't provide reassurance, only make people more hesitant. I wish people would seriously explore both sides and read up on the damage this new vaccine causes before passing judgement. COVID is horrible but the chances of catching it and having severe complications are very slim. There is a slim chance I'll be vaccine damaged, or is it so slim? And why am I so selfish not to take the risk when I am not in the high risk category. 

I can't remember who said it's like being asked to wear a seat belt. Not quite. It's like being asked to wear a seatbelt that is new, improved, and environmentally friendly.....but it may fail, cause an accident, or possibly even seriously injure or kill you.

[HaarDon]

^^^COVID is horrible but the chances of catching it and having severe complications are very slim. 

 

Really?

Tell that to all the relatives of the 5.3 million who have died from it or were all those car crashes?

I've heard or read about people throughout my decades who died or had health problems after taking aspirin, alka seltzer, had side effects, were allergic to certain medications, had heart attacks from pills, etc etc.

We all know this happens. Unfortunately it's a part of life that there will be adverse reactions to medicine.

Some people will die after getting behind a wheel of a car. Some surfers will get bitten by sharks. Some workmen will fall from ladders.Some people will choke on oysters.Some fisherman will drown at sea.

The list is endless.

Will you ever swim again or drive again?

I havnt heard anyone ever say after being interviewed that they are genuinely frightened of getting a tested vaccine that's proven to be extremely successful.

It's always been about anger that their freedoms have been taken away or something religious as manc said before.

It's utter bollocks and people just jumping on a wobbly bandwagon. Look at me I'm different.

Like conspiracy theorists...full of shit.

Are you expecting in years to come that all our legs will drop off or we will all have heart attacks or something?

What can possibly happen to your body after weeks, months or years having got the vaccine which has been approved by the WHO and tons of leading, brilliant scientists?

Experts have been stated that blood clots can occur from getting covid if unvaccinated!

Blood clots can occur from numerous different types of medicine.

If you have genuine existing health problems then don't get the vaccine but otherwise everyone should get it or they're just being awkward because their friend said something or a group they're in did.

Sounds like the old firm support when you ask them why they hate the 'other' sides supporters.

Zero argument except a hated response.

It's not about whether you're intelligent or not either. It's whether you want to get past your propaganda fears and get back yo some sort of normality.

Also Djokovic is a dickhead!

Apart from being an attention seeker, he's a selfish bastard too.

He's unvaxxed yet travelling internationally and thinks he can just enter Australia because Tennis Australia allowed him to play in the tournament.

Genuine medical conditions my arse. That doesn't seem to bother him when he's partying with hundreds does it?

 

[BigAl]

Crowds allowed back in stadiums 

Full house for visit of Der Hun ?

[RicoS321]

46 minutes ago, BigAl said:

Crowds allowed back in stadiums 

Full house for visit of Der Hun ?

Quite right. Would definitely have been between Christmas and New year, but like to think it'd be close. Especially after all the big signings.

[scotfree]

On 04/01/2022 at 03:56, Jute said:

Positive test today for me. Feels like a slight head cold so far. Ten days of sitting on my arse is more likely to be the issue. 

How you felling now, @Jute? 

[Jute]

1 hour ago, scotfree said:

How you felling now, @Jute? 

Was feeling fine next day. Only got a very mild dose. As expected the 10 days of not getting out the house was the harder bit but as I currently work from home that did take us some of my time so did not watch as much Netflix as I thought I might.

[manc_don]

My folks both have it down in london. Seems like they think they may have got it from the supermarket as they’ve barely been anywhere else. Mild symptoms so far which is hopefully due to the booster. Have another mate who three months after getting it, still has no sense of smell / taste. Glad to hear you’re ok Jute

[OrlandoDon]

Well, my turn! We test weekly at work and I got the call last night that i’d tested positive. Minimal symptoms, slightly scratchy throat and a bit of a headache. Run down too but that’s normal given my 3 and 5 year old don’t sleep. 
if I’m asymptomatic and feel fine I can test at work after 5 days and return if it’s negative, otherwise it’s another 5 days out after that before testing again.

[Goldie03]

On 13/01/2022 at 18:16, manc_don said:

My folks both have it down in london. Seems like they think they may have got it from the supermarket as they’ve barely been anywhere else. Mild symptoms so far which is hopefully due to the booster. Have another mate who three months after getting it, still has no sense of smell / taste. Glad to hear you’re ok Jute

I still don't have my taste & smell back properly and that's been 8 weeks now - some days better than others - I can't really smell anything unless it's right up to  my nose!! 

I did properly taste a piece of chocolate orange the other day tho  

[HaarDon]

2 hours ago, Goldie03 said:

I still don't have my taste & smell back properly and that's been 8 weeks now - some days better than others - I can't really smell anything unless it's right up to  my nose!! 

I did properly taste a piece of chocolate orange the other day tho  

 Aye but was it milk or plain?

[HaarDon]

See ya later Cockavic

[Kowalski]

8 hours ago, HaarDon said:

See ya later Cockavic

Agreed he’s a cock, and an arrogant one at that. But I don’t think anyone comes out of this well, Djokovic, Australian tennis, and the government. What a fucking mess. 
 

The likes of Federer, Nadal & Murray have far too much class/sense to ever get into this sort of situation in the first place. 

[HaarDon]

7 hours ago, Kowalski said:

Agreed he’s a cock, and an arrogant one at that. But I don’t think anyone comes out of this well, Djokovic, Australian tennis, and the government. What a fucking mess. 
 

The likes of Federer, Nadal & Murray have far too much class/sense to ever get into this sort of situation in the first place. 

Yeah totally agree Kowalski.

The reasoning to cancel his visa should've been finalised before he even got into Australia.

To go down the line that he would be some sort of anti-vaxxer icon seems petty and clutching at straws.

Still the correct decision was made.

He lied then (I believe), got his agent to take the hit for the entry form fuck up.