McInnes must go

[ayrshire_don74]

So he stays as you suggest and will probably be the reality... he will be continued to allowed to sign dross , so next guy comes in and inherits a shit show  , possibly more of a shit show ?

[RicoS321]

24 minutes ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

So he stays as you suggest and will probably be the reality... he will be continued to allowed to sign dross , so next guy comes in and inherits a shit show  , possibly more of a shit show ?

The club either has a good scouting department or it doesn't. That should transcend the manager in my opinion. I don't want a manager coming in, let's say from England, and signing a bunch of guys that he knows are good players because he's just seen them in his last job and then in 18 months time they run out of ideas. It's not just at Aberdeen that happens, it's apparent throughout the league and dons fans will often comment on how some managers have great success, ignoring the fact that they're new in their job. McInnes is a full time manager of AFC, he can't be away scouting other options. His bread and butter are players in the SPFL (which he has produced some absolutely shocking players from), or players who have recently left the SPFL and aren't getting the minutes down South. When we stray from that, it's clear to me that we're not in a position to assist a new manager with a decent background scouting team, so I would concentrate on sorting that in the next six months. It's not fair to expect McInnes to be scouting players, nor a new manager. In the interim, I'd restrict McInnes to short term signings or low-risk proven SPFL players that may have a future sell on value (Alan Campbell etc). If it were me, I'd be reviewing McInnes' position in the summer based on our position in the league and with no signings coming in this month, he won't be making any new signings anyway unless he's here for another year. In the summer, if we haven't already (I think we have), we begin to move the scouting and recruitment away from McInnes as part of the succession planning effort. When a new manager comes in, we allow them to put forward players in the league(s) in which they have recently managed, in the same way as McInnes could put forward SPFL players, for further scouting and recruitment. It's not the role of the manager to be touting players he once played against in a pre-season friendly 6 years ago, or a player he saw on channel 5 highlights from English division 8. We need some consistency and intelligence in the scouting process, not managers phoning their mates.

[wee toon red]

I'd be willing to bet that when McInnes is replaced, it'll be with a director of football and a head coach. He might even be the DoF...

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, wee toon red said:

I'd be willing to bet that when McInnes is replaced, it'll be with a director of football and a head coach. He might even be the DoF...

I think he'd be far better suited to that role. However, I don't think it needs a football person, but more an analytical and managerial person (that might be McInnes of course, that'd be up to Cormack). I mean, I'm guessing that role is what Duncan Fraser does in theory anyway? The managerial role has such a huge remit, it is something that should be two positions. One that sets and oversees the club strategy, in charge of recruitment department, sports science, youth development (and progression to the first team) etc and one that is in charge of first team operations. In theory, the next McInnes shouldn't be any more important to us than the head of recruitment in terms of the organisational layout as it were. Ultimately, we can then hold our recruitment guys responsible when that side of the business goes tits up, and the youth team coach gets ditched if we're failing to present players to the first team coach. Maybe it already happens that way, fuck knows.

[Panda]

17 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

 

I sort of agree with your post, but I don't think we can pin this one on McInnes. The club was very clearly the instigator in the crime against fitba that was Hernandez, and it almost appeared like we got Kennedy to keep McInnes happy. We can only imagine what would have happened if we'd been allowed to spend half that ridiculous fee on an actual striker and opting for someone like O'Donnell on a pre contract or waited until the following summer to sign a right back. There were fairly obvious targets like nisbet out there at the time we were dicking about on a Venezuelan.

The above is the biggest concern for me, we've seen what happens when the club play at soldiers with the Atlanta crew. We're nowhere near where we should be in terms of replacing McInnes, and the Hernandez pish showed that. We can't be going down the route of another manager with complete control over every area, we need continuity and strategy in the main departments. Otherwise the next manager comes in, replaces all the backroom staff and after their 18-24months of signing guys they know because they've seen them recently, recruitment tails off, everything else goes stale and we're left starting again, again.

I don't think the Hernandez signing has had much influence over the ability to sign others. Especially when months prior to that McInnes had the chance to sign strikers but instead opted for Curtis Main.

Since finishing below Kilmarnock (a poor season where the decline was evident) he has had three transfer windows, and in Scottish terms has been handsomely backed.

Summer 2019: Ash Taylor, Curtis Main, Craig Bryson, Ryan Hedges, James Wilson, Funso Ojo. (Loans: Greg Leigh, Zac Vyner, Jon Gallagher).

January 2020: Dylan McGeouch, Matty Kennedy, Ronald Hernandez

Summer 2020: Jonny Hayes, Tommie Hoban, Greg Leigh (loans: Ryan Edmondson, Marley Watkins, Gary Woods, Ross McCrorie).

We were told this is the strongest squad since he took charge. Yet the team is the poorest in his time here.

[RicoS321]

7 hours ago, Panda said:

I don't think the Hernandez signing has had much influence over the ability to sign others. Especially when months prior to that McInnes had the chance to sign strikers but instead opted for Curtis Main.

Since finishing below Kilmarnock (a poor season where the decline was evident) he has had three transfer windows, and in Scottish terms has been handsomely backed.

Summer 2019: Ash Taylor, Curtis Main, Craig Bryson, Ryan Hedges, James Wilson, Funso Ojo. (Loans: Greg Leigh, Zac Vyner, Jon Gallagher).

January 2020: Dylan McGeouch, Matty Kennedy, Ronald Hernandez

Summer 2020: Jonny Hayes, Tommie Hoban, Greg Leigh (loans: Ryan Edmondson, Marley Watkins, Gary Woods, Ross McCrorie).

We were told this is the strongest squad since he took charge. Yet the team is the poorest in his time here.

I agree. I was replying to you saying he was allowed to "spend big in January". I'm not sure what point of mine you're disagreeing with. In fairness to McInnes, I have no idea if your list  above results in a more costly team than we had a few years back. Players out would be useful, given likes of Main was brought in as a low budget replacement for May.

I don't remember the club saying this was the strongest since he took charge (I heard fans and the BBC say it), and I actually don't think it's the poorest team in his time here. Like most seasons, we've got a good first 14, but as soon as we get a few injuries the cracks show massively. What was apparent in our cup loss to Motherwell a few seasons back was apparent in our loss to St Mirren in the cup. McInnes has always struggled to accommodate fringe players and cope when players are missing. When we have our best 11 consistently playing we go on a run. Every single year we have a situation where McInnes can't work out his best 11 and he takes weeks to get there. When fringe players come in and play well enough to not be dropped, he shoehorns them in to the side at the expense of the whole system (Main and Cosgrove, McGeouch earlier in the season and we'll see similar with Logan and Campbell). It's fucking scandalous that we had a fantastic, working system in 3-4-3 with Hedges and Wright pushed on which hasn't been used since Cosgrove returned for example, to the significant detriment of both team and player. I have little doubt that we'll go on another run of wins, because we're better than the rest by in large. If we get a win against the Tims or something then this thread will disappear for another couple of months.

[ayrshire_don74]

Its ok i will keep the thread going, one win v Celtic wont make it go away.

 

In terms of strength in numbers and options I think it's as strong as it's been. I think maybe it had better individuals over the course of the seasons I've been here.

"But the strength has always been in the squad, it's never been about the individual.

 

 

[DantheDon]

I think there is great potential in this squad but its not currently better then the one that pushed Celtic under Deila. I think we are also going to struggle to keep this squad together long enough to fulfill its potential. I can't see most of these guys wanting to stick around for longer than there current contracts.

[RicoS321]

4 hours ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

Its ok i will keep the thread going, one win v Celtic wont make it go away.

 

In terms of strength in numbers and options I think it's as strong as it's been. I think maybe it had better individuals over the course of the seasons I've been here.

 

"But the strength has always been in the squad, it's never been about the individual.

Good work, we'll keep it going until he leaves! 

I disagree about the best squad. We have Leigh as cover for defence and zero serviceable strikers with Cosgrove off form. We're well covered in midfield in the month or two where McGeouch is fit and well covered in the wide areas. It's a decent squad, but without good first choice striking options, that makes it a lot less potent than a few years back when our backups were Ball, O'Connor and the like who were pish but behind a good starting eleven.

[Panda]

On 19/01/2021 at 09:59, RicoS321 said:

If we get a win against the Tims or something then this thread will disappear for another couple of months.

Nah I think we're past that now. He beat Rangers three times in Glasgow in the 2018-19 season and it didn't stop the increasing number of fans wanting him out.

Once you've lost the support, you've lost them. I don't even think making the Scottish Cup final would save him. I think you would just find many fans saying it's the best way for him to leave having won the cup. 

[RicoS321]

26 minutes ago, Panda said:

Nah I think we're past that now. He beat Rangers three times in Glasgow in the 2018-19 season and it didn't stop the increasing number of fans wanting him out.

Once you've lost the support, you've lost them. I don't even think making the Scottish Cup final would save him. I think you would just find many fans saying it's the best way for him to leave having won the cup. 

Yep, I should have put emphasis on the "for a couple of months" part. This thread alone had a four month sabbatical from August until January, although it was really only a couple of months that things were settled as we were playing some good stuff is until the u21 trip. I agree with your point about the Scottish cup, even though it would largely prove every one of his ardent detractors wrong, the good time to leave thing seems fairly accurate. For what it's worth, I think a good time to have left would have been at the time the Huns came calling. Beyond that point, things became poorer on the playing front (despite finishing above the Hun), but more importantly that was the point where a number of fans stopped judging him by objective measures culminating in where we are now. I hope he wins the cup and moves on to better things. It would be great if we could finally have another manager that steps up after his time here.

 

[manc_don]

5 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

Yep, I should have put emphasis on the "for a couple of months" part. This thread alone had a four month sabbatical from August until January, although it was really only a couple of months that things were settled as we were playing some good stuff is until the u21 trip. I agree with your point about the Scottish cup, even though it would largely prove every one of his ardent detractors wrong, the good time to leave thing seems fairly accurate. For what it's worth, I think a good time to have left would have been at the time the Huns came calling. Beyond that point, things became poorer on the playing front (despite finishing above the Hun), but more importantly that was the point where a number of fans stopped judging him by objective measures culminating in where we are now. I hope he wins the cup and moves on to better things. It would be great if we could finally have another manager that steps up after his time here.

 

This was more my point. Regardless of us finishing 2nd that season, it was a shite watch and I lost a lot of respect for McInnes with the way he conducted himself and "managed" the team around those two games. Had nothing to do with it being them, it just lacked professionalism.  Things in my eyes, just started to deteriorate from that season. Essentially, when I left the UK to come here (sorry)  But Milne made him an offer that was too hard to resist, maybe comfort set in then? Not sure what it was.  As I've stated either in this thread or another, I would much prefer him to leave us on good terms (i.e. a successful season) than not.  Just not sure if he's capable of or got the desire for it.

[redordead]

So, after today's win. The must stay, how can anybody complain about third place crowd have popped their heads up.

Looking at the table, we are 27 points off the top with 14 games to go.

At the current realty we could end the season 40 points off of the newco.

What's an acceptable gap to most fans? For me the team in third or who claim to be the 3rd force shouldn't end the season more than 20 points out. Regardless of how Celtics season is going.

Am I being fair?

[BigAl]

Ok, let's go get that proverbial winner Jack Ross

[RicoS321]

42 minutes ago, redordead said:

So, after today's win. The must stay, how can anybody complain about third place crowd have popped their heads up.

Looking at the table, we are 27 points off the top with 14 games to go.

At the current realty we could end the season 40 points off of the newco.

What's an acceptable gap to most fans? For me the team in third or who claim to be the 3rd force shouldn't end the season more than 20 points out. Regardless of how Celtics season is going.

Am I being fair?

I think it's irrelevant. We can only set our own points target. If we're hitting 70+ points in any season, that's an excellent return. I think there's only been us and hearts have done that before. I'd like to see us stretching towards 80 on the odd occasion. We're not spending enough money to have a second string team that can win every single game, so we'd need a relatively injury free season. We'd need two good strikers and three or four players of the quality of Hedges and Wright. Beyond that, you're relying on a poor season for the scum too. I'm wondering why you think we can have any bearing on their points total (other than games against us)? The hun haven't lost a game to any team in the league this season. Why do you presume that it's Aberdeen's concern? It's not that I don't only think that you're not being fair, it's that you've made up an entirely random metric and tried to apply it retrospectively to suit your pre-defined conclusion. Third is a good return this season if we can hold onto that. High sixties in points good too. Holding on to Wright is fairly crucial to that in my opinion, and if we can play entertaining fitba like we did today then that's more than satisfactory. If you want much more, then your ire should be with the chairman and not the manager. Budget is the quantifiable, demonstrable difference in points between us and the scum. 

[ayrshire_don74]

Goodwin a fraction of the budget of mcpish .. doing ok

[RicoS321]

14 minutes ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

Goodwin a fraction of the budget of mcpish .. doing ok

I think Goodwin would be a great appointment. I'm not sure we're anymore ready to appoint a new manager than we were last week.

[Panda]

1 hour ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

Goodwin a fraction of the budget of mcpish .. doing ok

 

45 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I think Goodwin would be a great appointment. I'm not sure we're anymore ready to appoint a new manager than we were last week.

We do this all the time, tip guys for the job after they get a few good results. Stephen Robinson used to be regularly tipped for the Aberdeen job, Jack Ross was the man when he was at St Mirren, Tommy Wright after he won the Scottish Cup. I even remember when John Hughes was perfect for Aberdeen. It won't be long before David Martindale is the front runner. 

So Jim Goodwin is the latest one, because at clubs like St Mirren you only remember the good results and not the poor ones, ie that before these past two games they had won once in seven games, or that they're one or two defeats away from a relegation fight. 

He's doing okay. But lets wait until he's been in the job more than five minutes. 

[ayrshire_don74]

he did well at alloa ?

[RicoS321]

8 minutes ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

he did well at alloa ?

Yep, I've liked Goodwin since I heard him interviewed there, he was very determined and very articulate and very knowledgeable. Although it's fairly unlikely that a St Mirren manager coming to the dons would be any good.

[LA-Don]

12 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Yep, I've liked Goodwin since I heard him interviewed there, he was very determined and very articulate and very knowledgeable. Although it's fairly unlikely that a St Mirren manager coming to the dons would be any good.

I think he needs to be sacked by st mirren before coming to us. That seemed to work before.

[LA-Don]

Curious for people’s thoughts. McInnes has been with us almost 8 years now, what would you say is a Mcinnes team? What style and attributes has he brought us that has stuck, when we watch us play, what is a mcinnes team? What has he stamped on us, passing team, creative flair, hard as nails, disciplined?? Personally, I think fuck all which says a lot...

[Panda]

44 minutes ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

he did well at alloa ?

Aye, so did Paul Hartley, another boy who was once being tipped for the Aberdeen job. 

 

[ayrshire_don74]

4 minutes ago, Panda said:

Aye, so did Paul Hartley, another boy who was once being tipped for the Aberdeen job. 

 

if he wins league cup then he is on a par with mcpish 

[Panda]

3 minutes ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

if he wins league cup then he is on a par with mcpish 

Goodwin? Bit difficult since they got knocked out in the semis.