The Mcinnes Legacy..

[ayrshire_don74]

Posted here last few years about this charlatan bankrurpting the club due to his profligacy in the transfer market 3-5m operational losses last 2 years have came to bite, we are fucked,  crocked pish from Leeds,fat boy Anderson .. Hibs sign talent... if i was in DNA i would ask for my money back ... Bryson has cost us 250k plus  zero return , how long do intelligent men allow this financial vindalism to continue...

[Donofanewera]

Agreed pig sick of McInnes. Problem is a lot of our fans are shit so willing to accept mediocrity 

[tom_widdows]

When did hibs become the yardstick to beat McInnes over the head with?


 

[BigAl]

39 minutes ago, tom_widdows said:

When did hibs become the yardstick to beat McInnes over the head with?


 

Took over the mantle from Motherwell apparently

[Ten Caat]

11 hours ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

Posted here last few years about this charlatan bankrurpting the club due to his profligacy in the transfer market 3-5m operational losses last 2 years have came to bite, we are fucked,  crocked pish from Leeds,fat boy Anderson .. Hibs sign talent... if i was in DNA i would ask for my money back ... Bryson has cost us 250k plus  zero return , how long do intelligent men allow this financial vindalism to continue...

About as long as his £17k per week contract lasts I'd imagine. His performance is pretty much a secondary concern to the board as long as we don't find ourselves in serious relegation difficulties. He's just far too expensive to sack. And then have to fund a new management team on top. 

[rocket_scientist]

John Stephen and the now-defunct AFCST were right about Milne. He never forgave the fans for the night of the Blunt Knives where we all voted against him. That was what, over 15 years ago? He never had more than 29% of the club but his "institutional investors" came to his aid and he survived.

The "fans" couldn't believe that Milne was not a knight in shining armour. They swallowed his shite, ignored the reality and dismissed his critics. This is why AFC got the manager and club it deserved.

Time will tell if the new board of AFC America Inc. are pursuing an agenda for the good of the football club or for the good of themselves. 

[RicoS321]

3 minutes ago, Ten Caat said:

About as long as his £17k per week contract lasts I'd imagine. His performance is pretty much a secondary concern to the board as long as we don't find ourselves in serious relegation difficulties. He's just far too expensive to sack. And then have to fund a new management team on top. 

Well, aye, but also given that we've got a new board, they'd probably like to give the guy a set of targets, some new ways of doing things and an appropriate opportunity to perform in those conditions. If he fails then he is paid off in the final year of his contract with some form of gardening leave offer.

Does anyone really think the club is any fit state to be changing manager right now? Seriously? Do they think a new manager will have the right level of support and the right conditions behind the scene to get anywhere beyond the initial new manager bounce phase?

Ayrshire's point about McInnes' recruitment is correct (although he's made a profit for the club, in total, in the years he's been here, so the nonsense about bankruptcy is - nonsense), but it spectacularly misses the point. We need to be taking recruitment away from the manager to a large degree. The club needs to have a network of people and an in-house team that are knowledgeable and skilled enough to do the vast majority of recruitment work, with the manager providing the final say and using their knowledge of individual players on the odd occasion. We can't have a system that relies on "well eh, I know Jaap" or "Derek's mates wi' Jody Morris, ken?", or Broon's ex-Scotland mates (Naysmith) or..... nah, there isn't a single player in world football who liked Mark McGhee. If a manager is at a club for more than a couple of years (McInnes) then their past experience of players is out of date and shouldn't be relied upon. If our club's scouting network thought Gleeson and Forrester were players then we've got bigger issues that will persist after McInnes is gone.

In my opinion, we need Cormack to get the club into a good position for the next manager coming in before McInnes leaves. Christ, I've been on about succession planning since before McGhee joined, so I hope to fuck Cormack sees it (I think he does). There's a lot more to a club than just the manager, and we can't keep going from giving one manager all the power, to giving the next guy all the power, to the next guy and so on in perpetuity. Let's get our house in order first so McInnes can have no excuses and we don't face the next Mark McGhee straight after him. 

[rocket_scientist]

5 minutes ago, puregenius said:

You can like McInnes or loathe him but bankrupt the club? Can you not remember the state of the finances before he was appointed?  

Can you not remember the state of the finances before Milne got involved?

Can you not remember being in the black for every one of ninety years?

Can you not remember the specific financial transaction that took us into the red for the first time?

Can you not remember how the contractor manipulated Baby Donald to convert part of the "debt" into shares?

Can you not remember the lies he gave us in 1996 at the Capitol?

Can you not remember what happened to the balance sheet from the 90's onwards?

Escalating debt, with Milne as guarantor was always going to secure his position, detract any investors and give him time to fulfil his agenda. The "product" suffered and the fans couldn't see the truth, obscured as it was by incredulity. They couldn't believe he wasn't working with the best interests of the club in his heart. 

[RicoS321]

12 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

Can you not remember the state of the finances before Milne got involved?

Can you not remember being in the black for every one of ninety years?

Can you not remember the specific financial transaction that took us into the red for the first time?

Can you not remember how the contractor manipulated Baby Donald to convert part of the "debt" into shares?

Can you not remember the lies he gave us in 1996 at the Capitol?

Can you not remember what happened to the balance sheet from the 90's onwards?

Escalating debt, with Milne as guarantor was always going to secure his position, detract any investors and give him time to fulfil his agenda. The "product" suffered and the fans couldn't see the truth, obscured as it was by incredulity. They couldn't believe he wasn't working with the best interests of the club in his heart. 

You forgot about his preference shares that were to come due on the sale of Pittodrie

But that's as much McInnes' fault as it is mine for buying a season ticket.

[rocket_scientist]

2 minutes ago, puregenius said:

None of that is relevant to the point I was referring to. 

I think you'll find that it is, particularly if you are seeking to give credit to the current manager for "the state of the finances".

The Wm. Donald "gift" of £10m is the difference between now and the day McInnes joined AFC. As Rico just said, attributing the manager with any brownie points for today's balance sheet is folly. 

[BigAl]

2 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

I think you'll find that it is, particularly if you are seeking to give credit to the current manager for "the state of the finances".

The Wm. Donald "gift" of £10m is the difference between now and the day McInnes joined AFC. As Rico just said, attributing the manager with any brownie points for today's balance sheet is folly. 

There are lots of things that may cause argument in this thread but surely no one can really argue against the valid point that Rico & Rocket have highlighted here.

[rocket_scientist]

12 hours ago, ayrshire_don74 said:

how long do intelligent men allow this financial vindalism to continue...

I love this term, "financial vandalism". Nice one AD and you're spot on with the OP. The manager's continuing incompetence is hurting the club's finances every year.

The biggest financial vandal in the last 30 years was Milne of course, who's extraordinary offer to McInnes was a disgrace and as TC rightly says, makes it almost impossible to undo right now.

In due course, we will learn if the "gift" from Mr & Mrs Wm. Donald was a further act of financial vandalism but that will need to wait until we see what Donald gets out of our future building and what happens to Pittodrie.

I first mentioned succession planning on these forums 25 years ago when Milne kept on picking duffers. There was none. I made the point that R. Donald and C. Anderson were always looking ahead in this regard. Milne has gone (or has he, again this will come out in the wash with future capital spends and the disposal of our biggest fixed asset) and as I say, time will tell where Cormack Inc. and his septic tanks are at.

[royal deeside cowie]

Back in the day I remember you were one of Milne's most enthusiastic happy clappers. Once it became clear he wasn't what you'd hoped for you became jaded and disgruntled and have been on a steady decline of cinicism ever since. 

[tup1]

He has turned into the 2nd coming of Jimmy Calderwood.

[rocket_scientist]

Turnover was over £12m in one of Calderwood's years. This is the value of European football to the top line.

But as a self-appointed finance expert, you'll already know that volume = vanity and profit = sanity.

What did I make up?

[TheDeeDon]

If he had left in 2017, I would have said his legacy was to turnaround a club that was all honestly was a bit of a freakshow prior to his arrival. I don't think any of us can honestly say our club is not in a better place now than when it was when he first arrived, not all of it down to DM though.  Lets not forget either that during some of his reign most of the main clubs were not in the top league. That was not his fault in any way, but it is still a factor in his overall "success".

Now in 2020, three years on from when I believe he should have left, his legacy is disappearing quickly and I suspect there will be a lot of resentment towards his tenure when he does eventually go due mostly to him staying around too long.

As said above, his reign now is very reminiscent of a certain J Calderwoods last days.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, TheDeeDon said:

If he had left in 2017, I would have said his legacy was to turnaround a club that was all honestly was a bit of a freakshow prior to his arrival. I don't think any of us can honestly say our club is not in a better place now than when it was when he first arrived, not all of it down to DM though.  Lets not forget either that during some of his reign most of the main clubs were not in the top league. That was not his fault in any way, but it is still a factor in his overall "success".

Now in 2020, three years on from when I believe he should have left, his legacy is disappearing quickly and I suspect there will be a lot of resentment towards his tenure when he does eventually go due mostly to him staying around too long.

As said above, his reign now is very reminiscent of a certain J Calderwoods last days.

Probably about right, but what have the club done to prevent the appointment of the next JC?  Are we in a position as a club to pay the manager several hundred thousand pounds to go and replace with someone who we won't be doing the same to in 18 months time? Why are we not learning from the biggest mistake we made when getting rid of Calderwood? Getting rid of McInnes is simply a bad business decision at present. We're playing behind closed doors and he currently has his hand in everything the club do. It's not acceptable for people to just say "sack the manager", they have to explain the other parts of the equation too or they can have zero complaints about the Mark McGhee coming next.

[rocket_scientist]

5 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

but what have the club done to prevent the appointment of the next JC?  

Hang on, Calderwood was popular. He got a contract extension from Milne and Miller. The board thought he was a good manager.

Much as you make some very good points about the business management and the need to define the functions, the roles and the responsibilities, which isn't exactly anything new and good common practise in most healthy businesses - which did NOT include AFC under Milne, which WAS how AFC was managed in Dick Donald's days and which MIGHT include how the club gets managed under the yanks - there is nothing in the business manuals and the management consultancy mantras that can substitute the need for picking the right people in the right places and creating the right culture for success.

Actually, that's not strictly true either (as the management gurus already know and write about this) so let me re-phrase... picking the right personality, with the right experience and background of course (or potential in the case of an inexperienced manager).

On every front, McInnes - like EVERY SINGLE MANAGER appointed in the last THIRTY YEARS (Smiffy and Jocky were appointed before 1990) - was never the right person to lead Aberdeen to success... whatever "success" actually meant over the years, coming 7th in the league was the plan not too long ago (simply to break even from a P & L point of view).

He had no track record of achievement in his career to suggest that he would be a successful manager at this level, the third biggest club in Scotland (once upon a time, and probably still a good shout for that with the potential of the club, the missing thousands being dormant if not some of them being extinct.

He has no aspects of personality that might turn him into a winner. He is a charlatan who never committed to AFC and who will be deeply regretting not leaving for bigger money when he had the chance. He was always going to be found out one day. Unfortunately it's going to be at Aberdeen and like Calderwood, will never go on to a bigger and better job because they were and are not actually any good at their jobs.

[tup1]

I feel sorry for him because Scottish football is so corrupt that a team which destroyed itself through tax evasion and the most sustained period of authorities endorsed cheating in any sport for all sporting history is now back on top of the league.

Nobody has any hope of succeeding as Aberdeen manager when this level of corruption is allowed to exist.

[rocket_scientist]

28 minutes ago, tup1 said:

I feel sorry for him because Scottish football is so corrupt that a team which destroyed itself through tax evasion and the most sustained period of authorities endorsed cheating in any sport for all sporting history is now back on top of the league.

Nobody has any hope of succeeding as Aberdeen manager when this level of corruption is allowed to exist.

Can't argue with the points about the trophyless bastards but "succeeding" needs to be defined.

If Jack Ross gets Hibs playing good football and their gate receipts and overall revenue go up and they get 3rd in the league (let alone the possibility of a day out in a cup final which they might even win, because they'll not be going into it trying not to get hammered), I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that this was a successful year.

[RicoS321]

28 minutes ago, rocket_scientist said:

Can't argue with the points about the trophyless bastards but "succeeding" needs to be defined.

If Jack Ross gets Hibs playing good football and their gate receipts and overall revenue go up and they get 3rd in the league (let alone the possibility of a day out in a cup final which they might even win, because they'll not be going into it trying not to get hammered), I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that this was a successful year.

McInnes got us to two finals, our best points return ever and - I think - our best goals tally ever whilst finishing second. He then took us backward. I like Ross (even as a st Mirren player, he always spoke well), but I think tup perhaps has a point about the Hun and I think any success would be short lived for Ross as it has been for McInnes. I think it's difficult to sustain that "best of the rest" level, which I think bodes well when the scum eventually fuck off.

[TheDeeDon]

3 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

Probably about right, but what have the club done to prevent the appointment of the next JC?  Are we in a position as a club to pay the manager several hundred thousand pounds to go and replace with someone who we won't be doing the same to in 18 months time? Why are we not learning from the biggest mistake we made when getting rid of Calderwood? Getting rid of McInnes is simply a bad business decision at present. We're playing behind closed doors and he currently has his hand in everything the club do. It's not acceptable for people to just say "sack the manager", they have to explain the other parts of the equation too or they can have zero complaints about the Mark McGhee coming next.

But it's not the problem of the fans to find the next manager never has been and never will be. Whenever DM moves on we could still end up with the next Mark McGhee or Alex Miller, regardless of how much planning we put into the recruitment process.

I certainly know that we won't be binning McInnes anytime soon, as the cost of doing so is so great and current situation means that he will probably see out his contract and and I am fairly sure that if he does, we will still be battling for 3rd or 4th place and a good run in the cups and in the grand scheme of Scottish football that is about as good as it gets. If he stays it means the football on offer  and the youth system will not get much better and my two biggest bugbears and apologies for banging on about it again.

When we got rid of JC, folk were up in arms about it, usually folk that didn't go to games and they were right, we did get worse when he left, McGhee was a disaster, but his appointment didn't have many dissenters at the time and then Brown, who in my opinion anyway, wasn't much of an improvement, but we did do well with McInnes, who did improve us as a team, no arguments from me in that respect and won us a cup.

There possibly is a manager who has the balls and the determination to challenge the Glasgow two, I have no idea who mind, but whether the club actually want to challenge is another matter. I hope Jack Ross does has the balls and determination to succeed, even at one of our rivals and manages to somehow win the title. I don't think he will mind, but would be happy for any other club to win the league outwith the Glasgow two.

I also believe that we have to change the role of the manager once DM leaves.

[rocket_scientist]

25 minutes ago, TheDeeDon said:

1. But it's not the problem of the fans to find the next manager never has been and never will be. Whenever DM moves on we could still end up with the next Mark McGhee or Alex Miller, regardless of how much planning we put into the recruitment process.

2. I also believe that we have to change the role of the manager once DM leaves.

1. Absolutely. As someone with extensive recruiting experience, it's almost always a gut feel about the person and the personality that makes for a successful appointment. We need a relevant skill set and experience - to varying importance depending on the role - but how well the recruitment process is planned out can never reveal the ATTITUDE and the DESIRE (for which we can substitute or add hunger and ambition) of the candidate. Miller was a sore point, I still have the letter from Milne in response to my letter to him from the week in which Alex Miller was appointed

2. I would prefer the football manager to manage the players. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't get how anyone can complicate what should be a very simple job description. The club already spends more than enough on sports science and scouting and S & C and everything else that the modern athletes benefit from. These should be support functions for the person who manages the players, not roles that he himself should perform.

[RicoS321]

3 hours ago, TheDeeDon said:

But it's not the problem of the fans to find the next manager never has been and never will be. Whenever DM moves on we could still end up with the next Mark McGhee or Alex Miller, regardless of how much planning we put into the recruitment process.

I certainly know that we won't be binning McInnes anytime soon, as the cost of doing so is so great and current situation means that he will probably see out his contract and and I am fairly sure that if he does, we will still be battling for 3rd or 4th place and a good run in the cups and in the grand scheme of Scottish football that is about as good as it gets. If he stays it means the football on offer  and the youth system will not get much better and my two biggest bugbears and apologies for banging on about it again.

When we got rid of JC, folk were up in arms about it, usually folk that didn't go to games and they were right, we did get worse when he left, McGhee was a disaster, but his appointment didn't have many dissenters at the time and then Brown, who in my opinion anyway, wasn't much of an improvement, but we did do well with McInnes, who did improve us as a team, no arguments from me in that respect and won us a cup.

There possibly is a manager who has the balls and the determination to challenge the Glasgow two, I have no idea who mind, but whether the club actually want to challenge is another matter. I hope Jack Ross does has the balls and determination to succeed, even at one of our rivals and manages to somehow win the title. I don't think he will mind, but would be happy for any other club to win the league outwith the Glasgow two.

I also believe that we have to change the role of the manager once DM leaves.

I think it is the job of anyone publicly suggesting that someone else get fired from their job, that they at least address the issues that raises. You don't have to pick the next manager, but you have to accept that by calling for a change in manager you need to understand the entire picture. Also, if you're calling for a change of manager but believe it's not a good time to do it, then why not leave it until you think it is? I'd be intrigued to know if anyone actually thinks that now is a good time to be binning a manager?

You're completely right to bring up the youth team and the style of play, but I don't understand why that has to wait for a new manager (nor do we have to wait to change the role). Cormack needs to implement goals and strategies now that force McInnes to address both. If we don't do it now, this season, then what chance do we have of implementing it well when we get a new manager?

[TheDeeDon]

54 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I think it is the job of anyone publicly suggesting that someone else get fired from their job, that they at least address the issues that raises. You don't have to pick the next manager, but you have to accept that by calling for a change in manager you need to understand the entire picture. Also, if you're calling for a change of manager but believe it's not a good time to do it, then why not leave it until you think it is? I'd be intrigued to know if anyone actually thinks that now is a good time to be binning a manager?

You're completely right to bring up the youth team and the style of play, but I don't understand why that has to wait for a new manager (nor do we have to wait to change the role). Cormack needs to implement goals and strategies now that force McInnes to address both. If we don't do it now, this season, then what chance do we have of implementing it well when we get a new manager?

I think a lot of dandies want shot of McInnes, but realise that the Covid impact has made it nigh on impossible due to the financial implications. If it wasn't for the contract situation I would have binned him and although I am only speculating here, I suspect Cormack would have got rid of him this summer.  So yes now is as good a time as any to bin a manager, if it's not going to screw you financially to do so.

One part of a McInnes legacy would be that we never give any manager such a lucrative contract without that person really showing they have earned it.