Andy Murray

[minijc]

Manc, you not tempted to go to any of it?  I saw it advertised when I was down for take that and wanted to come down for it.

 

Murray 5-2 up in first set, good fight back on his serve there.

[Kowalski]

when I was down for take that

 

Is this more fishing?

[manc_don]

Manc, you not tempted to go to any of it?  I saw it advertised when I was down for take that and wanted to come down for it.

 

Murray 5-2 up in first set, good fight back on his serve there.

 

I was thinking about this the other day. I may try get tickets next year, I just can't afford it at the moment! Looks like an incredible arena. Decent match so far. But Mini one question....Take That?!?!? I pray to god you're fishing!

[minijc]

I am not, I went to Wembley to see them, stayed in a posh hotel next to London eye, in an executive suite which was cool and had city view.

[mizer]

See that one grain of credibility you had, its gone.

[minijc]

See that one grain of credibility you had, its gone.

It was on gay pride day aswell in London. 

[Kowalski]

Tatties over the side.

[Azteca1903]

Into the fourth round of the Aussie Open today, where victory would pair him with Nadal in the quarters. Anyone reckon he has a chance this year? Is this the year he wins a major, fulfills potential, becomes next Fred Perry etc etc...

[Ajja]

He will do his usual and choke in the next round. He is playing against that 6'9" US guy (Isner?) who is on a great run of form just now, think he won the lead up tournament and beat Andy Roddick recently. He has a collosal serve and will blow Murray off the court.

 

[Kowalski]

He will do his usual and choke in the next round.

 

Has there been many instances of this happening?

[bilbobaggins]

I've watched most of his stuff and I'd say he blew it at the US Open last year and possibly Wimbeldon. But that's it.

 

 

[Ajja]

Has there been many instances of this happening?

 

The last two Australians, the French last season and the US I think. Oh and Wimbledon in last 3 years. Just when you think Murray is going to finally deliver on a 'slam' he chokes. With the exception of the final he reached (French 2 years ago I think) although he certainly choked against Federer in that too. If you have evidence of him winning one of the 4 majors then I'd like to know, I missed them.

[BobbyBiscuit]

If you have evidence of him winning one of the 4 majors then I'd like to know, I missed them.

 

That implies that if you don't win a tournament you automatically choked. That's not the case at all. sometimes you're just beaten by a better player.

[Ajja]

That implies that if you don't win a tournament you automatically choked. That's not the case at all. sometimes you're just beaten by a better player.

 

OK, I'll go with that theory. Obviously I have to now try to back up my flippant remarks with fact so lets test it and I'm happy to be wrong.

 

If being beaten by a better player is not choking then losing to a player who is not better is, OK ? So in the last 2 seasons of the US, French, Australian and Wimbledon events how many times has Murray lost to a lower seed (can we assume that being seeded lower constitutes 'not better' ?). I'm afraid I don't know how to find out the results but my memory is that the last 2 Australians have seen him lose to lesser players, last years US and Wimbledon were to lesser players I think, last years French also. Nadal may have beaten him two Wimbledons ago and Federer two Frenches, can't remember US two years ago. Anyone have real stats rather than made up shit ? I'm interested, genuinely I am.

 

EDIT: Sorry, it was the US he lost to Federer two years ago. He 'choked' in the French to some dude called Almagro.

[BobbyBiscuit]

OK, I'll go with that theory. Obviously I have to now try to back up my flippant remarks with fact so lets test it and I'm happy to be wrong.

 

 

 

You don't have to do anything.

 

 

 

If being beaten by a better player is not choking then losing to a player who is not better is, OK ? So in the last 2 seasons of the US, French, Australian and Wimbledon events how many times has Murray lost to a lower seed (can we assume that being seeded lower constitutes 'not better' ?). I'm afraid I don't know how to find out the results but my memory is that the last 2 Australians have seen him lose to lesser players, last years US and Wimbledon were to lesser players I think, last years French also. Nadal may have beaten him two Wimbledons ago and Federer two Frenches, can't remember US two years ago. Anyone have real stats rather than made up shit ? I'm interested, genuinely I am.

 

I've got no idea, but i would honestly say that he didn't necessarily choke in them all. I think he did choke in the US Open Final, but you need to remember that when it gets to the top end of most sports, everyone can beat everyone else on their day, just that some have their day more than others.  In the times Murray has beaten Nadal, for instance, I wouldn't necessarily say Nadal choked. Maybe you would though.

 

[Ajja]

 

You don't have to do anything.

 

I've got no idea, but i would honestly say that he didn't necessarily choke in them all. I think he did choke in the US Open Final, but you need to remember that when it gets to the top end of most sports, everyone can beat everyone else on their day, just that some have their day more than others.  In the times Murray has beaten Nadal, for instance, I wouldn't necessarily say Nadal choked. Maybe you would though.

 

I agree, if you lose to a better player thats it. They were expected to be better and they were. If you lose to a player you are expected to beat (ie seeded above) then I use the term 'choked'. Maybe it lacks understanding of the finities of the game of tennis, I can concede that as I'm not a fan of the game.

 

Its Friday faternoon though and I'm bored rigid not to mention being an argumentative shite. So hear is the work I didn't have to do but decided to anyway 

 

2009

 

Aus: Verdasco (4th round) - I'm gonna say choke

US: Cilic (4th round) - again, I call it choking

French: Gonzalez (QF) - Pretty much choked

Wimbledon: Roddick(Semi) - I might give you that but lesser seed at the time I think

 

2008

 

Aus: Tsonga (1st round) - practically strangled

US: Federer (Final) - beaten by a vastly superior player - agreed

French: Almagro (3rd round) - who? choky-choky

Wimbledon: Nadal (QF) - better player - agreed

 

I make that 5/6 from 8 in my own personal measurement style....

[BobbyBiscuit]

well when you put it like that it's a shock he can even still breathe...

 

 

[bilbobaggins]

Manc don hat on.

 

Yeah Ajj, some wouldn't agree but I do.

[manc_don]

Manc don hat on.

 

Yeah Ajj, some wouldn't agree but I do.

 

 

[Kowalski]

The last two Australians, the French last season and the US I think. Oh and Wimbledon in last 3 years. Just when you think Murray is going to finally deliver on a 'slam' he chokes. With the exception of the final he reached (French 2 years ago I think) although he certainly choked against Federer in that too. If you have evidence of him winning one of the 4 majors then I'd like to know, I missed them.

 

Hasn't won a grand slam ergo he choked? 

 

He didn't choke in the US Open Final, he looked absolutely shattered after beating Nadal in the semi.

[Ajja]

Hasn't won a grand slam ergo he choked? 

 

He didn't choke in the US Open Final, he looked absolutely shattered after beating Nadal in the semi.

 

OK Kow, I was being loose with my assertions. I may have been tough on Murray but as I have gone to great lengths to establish in subsequent posts his last 2 years at the 4 majors are not hugely impressive. I'd say at least 5 of his 8 exits have been poor...dare I say chokey ?

[maverick sheep]

I was gutted he lost some games I expected him to win but its 1 vs 1 on the day and I've not thought of his losses as choking since maybe 3 or 4 years ago when he was young and inexperienced. The US open final also was possibly a choke but that already equalled the achievement of any 'UK' player in the modern era and at a far younger age, so possibly he deserves some benefit of the doubt? Maybe the OZ exits were 'choking' too but some players have certain tournaments that they are a bit hit or miss. Did people call Nadal a choker when he couldn't win on anything but clay before 2008? Probably. And I'll bet those people don't bring that up too often nowadays. Since he has gone on to win wimbledon and OZ...tho they still call him a choker in US i suppose.

 

I did think last year would be his year but looking at this year I can't see anyone who has as much motivation as Murray. I think he'll win the US open. If it's a trophyless year, so fuck? If he wins he wins if he doesn't who's he letting down? He's in an individual sport being forced to represent the very same people who call him a traitor for not being red, blue and white, or even just don't like him because he's not a pure as snow, dull as ditch water tim henman type.

 

He's in it for himself and good for him. Hedoes what he does and I choose to follow him or not. Being a critic is totally nutless. I support him and cheer for him but if he loses then I won't have the cheek to call him a choker until I can come close to achieving what he already has.

[Sonoftherock]

I'd disagree that he choked.  He was simply beaten by the better players on the day.

 

Andy is still a wee bit off the likes of Nadal and Federer, who can win when certain facets of their game are malfunctioning.  Murray, has two, maybe three major weaknesses.

 

(1) he always makes his opponents play a lot of balls, because he plays such a defensive game.  The causes major problems when he plays one of the top guys, on form, particularly those with massive forehands. A lot of people talk about murray as one of the most intelligent match players, but he has no answer, as yet to a big forehand.  When the top guys are locked in and timing the ball well, Murrays change of pace, that is so effective against the weaker player, is basically useless.  Verdasco (AO), Gonzo (RG) and Roddick (W) simply bludgeoned him with their massive forehands. 

 

(2)  His service is, when it's not working, a huge weakness.  Murrays first serve is good, plenty of power, variety and disguise.  However when he serves a low percentage, this exposes his weak second serve, which any opponent worth their salt will simply pick off.

 

He caught Verdasco and Roddick, in particular during respective purple patches... Roddick was playing so well he nearly beat Federer in the final.  Critics might argue he choked against Cilic, but I watched that match and Murray was simply off form... After wimbledon things went a bit flat for him and he started looking tired.  I would argue he was just struggling with his form.

 

I honestly don't believe Murray is choker, he is just a little bit short right now. Dinara Safina is an example of a choker - she was world number one for most of last season, dominated the womens tour but didn't have the bottle to convert her supremacy on the biggest stage.  Murray has never been "due" a major in that respect, there are simply better players about.  Mens Tennis is in amazing shape right now and you have to produce something a little bit special if you're going to win a major.

 

He should be okay against Istner.  He usually does well against the big servers - his return of serve is arguably the strongest on tour.  Istner is a bit of a late developer at 24, but he's playing the tennis of his life and therefore will be a danger... but Murray will make him play far more shots on his serve than he's used to, and will probably force more errors.  I'll take Murray in 4 sets... they've never met before, so it might take a set or two for Murray to start reading his service.

 

Look out for Davydenko on the other side of the draw... he is my dark horse should Federer slip up.

[Ajja]

I totally agree with what you have said about his achievements and I support him all the way despite not being that fussed on tennis per say. I certainly don't want to see him fail but aside from the emotive response I stand by the fact that Andy Murray is a frustrating player who can storm through several ATP tournaments and beat the best tennis has to offer en route. However, when he steps up to the bigger tournaments he has recent form of....let's call it under performing if the word choke is too upsetting. This is particularly true last season where he lost to players who are significantly below him in the rankings in 75% of the majors, 50% of these in the 4th round (hence my comment about this tournament). Arguably, he has performed worse last year than the previous when his ranking was lower and his standing less although his 1st round exit in Australia was particularly honking.

[Guest rocket debris]

A Choker is a pretty sore label, not to be used lightly.

 

Choking is mental weakness. As sotr says, maybe he wasn't good enough technically.

 

In golf, Harrington came second an extraordinary number of times before he broke through. Many suspected him of being a choker, totally wrongly as it turned out. Wayne Grady had 22 or 23 seconds before he broke through and history shows him to be a major winner.

 

No idea if Murray choked or not up to now but he is young and has time on his side. Couldn't give a fuck either way if he makes it or not. Dunblane and his mother are two particular reasons for my apathy.