Next manager

[OrlandoDon]

4 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

Don't be ridiculous, stop doubling down on something so stupid. I've provided you the evidence, and your clearly not stupid, your just defending a crap point. Your situation isn't remotely the same. You're not taking a 95% pay cut for a start. Aberdeen is fantastic if you're an Aberdeen fan from Aberdeen, but nobody on earth thinks that coming to pittodrie to get abused by the Ned shed is some sort of idyllic lifestyle away from the madness of, say, Bournemouth or Everton or wherever else a former Man Utd manager goes next. The problem with these ridiculous shouts for people on 70% of our turnover is that they automatically make the guys within our budget look shite.

I've laid out my position several times. Of the managers I know a lot about, Goodwin sticks out as the best in my opinion. Of the managers I know nothing about, the guy Knutsen seems to be the stand out. I do expect data Dave to have enquired about both of these managers because if we're on a message board having heard of him, then a club looking for a manager will have heard of him. I'm absolutely certain (especially as it hasn't been that long since we last looked) there are lots of other managers out there that the club will have thought about that I haven't even heard of. 

I've stated already that being "inspired" by a manager isn't a requirement for me. Just as I wasn't inspired by signing Scott Brown, and haven't been inspired by any signing we've made since football turned into money ball. You seem to be conflating inspiring with "unheard of" or "different", but for me that's just intriguing. Skovdahl was intriguing, not inspiring. Besuijen, Ramirez were intriguing, not inspiring, but neither so far better than obvious good, solid signings like Shinnie or McLean. The moment we move into inspiring manager choices is the moment our club is bought by a Saudi billionaire and ruined beyond imagination.

You keep running to it’s stupid and it’s ridiculous. It’s not. If you don’t ask you don’t get. You run to the money argument but you’re not in football, don’t know the personnel, and make assumptions. Your assumptions may be correct but you, ultimately, have no idea. I’ve never met ole personally and don’t know his bank balance, pretty sure he could manage us for free if he wanted. That is a silly argument, but you don’t know people and their mindset and ambitions. He was successful at molde. Most fail at man utd.

my argument for Charlie Nicholas had nothing to do about money. He was the hottest player in British football, had a shit time at arsenal, and we asked. I’m sure at the time we could have argued he’d never come to us. 
you seem narrow minded and unambitious, but you see it as realistic. I don’t see why you want to limit our options or outlook. Asking Gerard, lampard, Guardiola, or klopp, that’s stupid. Fuck knows what ole is doing and thinking these days. I don’t want ole, but in hiring a new manager we ask anyone and everyone if we think it’s a good idea. Aim high. Bring some passion life and excitement to the club. Glad we asked the Norwegian guy if reports are accurate, he was intriguing.

goodwin has done absolutely nothing in football. And has very limited managerial experience, never mind with a club with our finances and expectation. Perhaps he has a shit year next year and gets st mirren relegated. Or us? I want someone with experience, has won something, and has good far reaching contacts. Has goodwin even coached outside of Scotland, nope. He’s been in Scotland for the best part of 12 years, is that ambition? He’s a modern day callum Davidson or tommy Wright. Even mark McGhee. In fact, those guys are more qualified and have been more successful. Don’t want any of them I will add.

[OrlandoDon]

Reading reports, no clue how accurate, that we are discussing compensation with st mirren. Blown away by this if goodwin is our guy. 
 

most want a manager with experience and say that’s where glass failed. Is a stint at alloa and a couple of years at st mirren good enough experience? Does that truly transfer to managing us? Hasn’t won anything, hasn’t managed outside of Scotland, no European experience. Has he even experienced a cup final, too lazy to check? I’d even value the battle hardened experience of being sacked before.

Surely we should be looking at all of the above, plus a manager with national and international connections. While I’m not saying Lennon or Ross are the answer, they are more qualified than goodwin. I see goodwin as slightly more experienced than glass and coaching st mirren to not be shite doesn’t win me over.
 

as I mentioned before, goodwin is the flavor of the month, not unlike tommy Wright or callum Davidson. I think we should be aiming for better.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

You keep running to it’s stupid and it’s ridiculous. It’s not. If you don’t ask you don’t get. You run to the money argument but you’re not in football, don’t know the personnel, and make assumptions. Your assumptions may be correct but you, ultimately, have no idea. I’ve never met ole personally and don’t know his bank balance, pretty sure he could manage us for free if he wanted. That is a silly argument, but you don’t know people and their mindset and ambitions. He was successful at molde. Most fail at man utd.

Jesus.

[LA-Don]

32 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Jesus.

Are you suggesting him for next manager? No experience. And dead. But apparently he can perform miracles and based on yesterdays game, he's maybe a better option than Paul Lambert.

There's fixed mindset and growth mindset. Open and closed minded. Blinkered or eyes wide open. I'd even say I'm not the abused who go running back to the abuser because it's what I deserve and the best I can do. Aim high. Like I said, you see it as realistic, I see it as limiting us. The fact I get a one word answer says a lot. You've nowhere to go except criticize me for stupid ideas. There are many wonderful people who wouldn't have accomplished what they did in life if they'd backed down when told they had stupid ideas. Dream big. 

[tlg1903]

55 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Reading reports, no clue how accurate, that we are discussing compensation with st mirren. Blown away by this if goodwin is our guy. 
 

most want a manager with experience and say that’s where glass failed. Is a stint at alloa and a couple of years at st mirren good enough experience? Does that truly transfer to managing us? Hasn’t won anything, hasn’t managed outside of Scotland, no European experience. Has he even experienced a cup final, too lazy to check? I’d even value the battle hardened experience of being sacked before.

Surely we should be looking at all of the above, plus a manager with national and international connections. While I’m not saying Lennon or Ross are the answer, they are more qualified than goodwin. I see goodwin as slightly more experienced than glass and coaching st mirren to not be shite doesn’t win me over.
 

as I mentioned before, goodwin is the flavor of the month, not unlike tommy Wright or callum Davidson. I think we should be aiming for better.

The big difference for me is Ross and lennon are on a downward trajectory whilst Goodwin is on an upwards one.  

Re the debate about ambition etc I kinda think both sides have really valid points.  People do take jobs for a variety of reasons, Clarke going to Killie being a prime example.  It has to be said though that a level of pragmatism always has to be applied with aiming to punch above your weight.  I mind that utter plum from whatever that supporters group was called suggesting on the radio we should try and get someone like Eddie howe  to replace DM.  Aye mate, the finance needed to get him in the door wouldn't bankrupt the club several times over. 

 

If it's Goodwin I'm at peace with that, as I said before I like the cut of his jib.  St mirren has been a fertile hunting ground for us for managers though, 12 trophies from the last two though obviously Alex smiths legacy is not so fondly remembered as fergies.  

 

[baggy89]

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

Reading reports, no clue how accurate, that we are discussing compensation with st mirren. Blown away by this if goodwin is our guy. 
 

most want a manager with experience and say that’s where glass failed. Is a stint at alloa and a couple of years at st mirren good enough experience? Does that truly transfer to managing us? Hasn’t won anything, hasn’t managed outside of Scotland, no European experience. Has he even experienced a cup final, too lazy to check? I’d even value the battle hardened experience of being sacked before.

Surely we should be looking at all of the above, plus a manager with national and international connections. While I’m not saying Lennon or Ross are the answer, they are more qualified than goodwin. I see goodwin as slightly more experienced than glass and coaching st mirren to not be shite doesn’t win me over.
 

as I mentioned before, goodwin is the flavor of the month, not unlike tommy Wright or callum Davidson. I think we should be aiming for better.

 

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

Jesus.

 

45 minutes ago, LA-Don said:

Are you suggesting him for next manager? No experience. And dead. But apparently he can perform miracles and based on yesterdays game, he's maybe a better option than Paul Lambert.

There's fixed mindset and growth mindset. Open and closed minded. Blinkered or eyes wide open. I'd even say I'm not the abused who go running back to the abuser because it's what I deserve and the best I can do. Aim high. Like I said, you see it as realistic, I see it as limiting us. The fact I get a one word answer says a lot. You've nowhere to go except criticize me for stupid ideas. There are many wonderful people who wouldn't have accomplished what they did in life if they'd backed down when told they had stupid ideas. Dream big. 

2 Accounts?

[RicoS321]

13 minutes ago, baggy89 said:

2 Accounts?

Aye, one on his phone, one on laptop/pc I think. He has explained before, he's not trying to back up his own arguments with a second account, don't worry, no shenanigans.

[LA-Don]

20 minutes ago, baggy89 said:

 

 

2 Accounts?

Yes, clarified that before. Was OrlandoDon before LA-Don (and moving back to Orlando this summer.) Had issues years ago but couldn't resolve things so started a new account. Got a new phone and for some reason when I logged in for the first time it logged me in as Orlando again. Tried to fix it once but didn't spend enough time........ one day.

Regarding the debate, of course common sense applies. But we all have thoughts on what that means. Eddie Howe is in high regard, OGS is not right now. It's a funny old game as we know, you just never know. Steve Clarke is a really good example of that, from the highs of Chelsea and Liverpool to Killie of all places. 

If it's Goodwin I'll be disappointed but support him. Same response I gave when Glass was appointed. I look at Celtic, and while resources cannot be compared, an experienced foreigner with world wide contacts can be successful in our league. Every single manager is a risk and success is certainly not guaranteed by anyone. It's been stated Glass didn't have the necessary experience to succeed with us, I just wonder how different Goodwin is when his only experience is not that long managing in Scotland while winning nothing.

Edited February 16, 2022 by LA-Don

[OxfordDon]

5 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Aye, one on his phone, one on laptop/pc I think. He has explained before, he's not trying to back up his own arguments with a second account, don't worry, no shenanigans.

I just assumed he was either very fast or very large.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, LA-Don said:

There's fixed mindset and growth mindset. Open and closed minded. Blinkered or eyes wide open. I'd even say I'm not the abused who go running back to the abuser because it's what I deserve and the best I can do. Aim high. Like I said, you see it as realistic, I see it as limiting us. The fact I get a one word answer says a lot. You've nowhere to go except criticize me for stupid ideas. There are many wonderful people who wouldn't have accomplished what they did in life if they'd backed down when told they had stupid ideas. Dream big

Fuck sake, just admit that you're wrong and grow the fuck up. The suggestion of OGS taking a 95% reduction in salary is patently stupid. It's like talking to someone who's trying to convince you that they can talk to the dead. You're not a moron, why the doubling and trebling down and the changing of subject?

[sheepheid]

James McPake?

[sheepheid]

McPake must go! 

[Slim]

Jack Ross seems to have built his entire reputation on what he achieved with St Mirren in the Championship. He’s done absolutely nothing with Sunderland and Hibs to suggest he can be a successful manager. Goodwin has already done more with St Mirren than Ross did.

[RicoS321]

18 minutes ago, Slim said:

Jack Ross seems to have built his entire reputation on what he achieved with St Mirren in the Championship. He’s done absolutely nothing with Sunderland and Hibs to suggest he can be a successful manager. Goodwin has already done more with St Mirren than Ross did.

Yep, but that was the same with McInnes who built his reputation with St Johnstone and then failed in Bristol. We were the Hibs in that scenario and got lucky. I think Goodwin is a better option than Ross, but I'm still not totally certain that Ross won't turn out to be a decent manager. He had a fairly high win percentage at Hibs inclusive of the terrible run of form that ended it. I'm glad Hibs took the hit anyway of course, and hope it continues under Maloney.

[LA-Don]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

Fuck sake, just admit that you're wrong and grow the fuck up. The suggestion of OGS taking a 95% reduction in salary is patently stupid. It's like talking to someone who's trying to convince you that they can talk to the dead. You're not a moron, why the doubling and trebling down and the changing of subject?

Eh? Why am I wrong and why grow the fuck up? And what subject am I changing? You are, to me, being narrow minded and are making assumptions about peoples career aspirations, motives, job ambitions, and money. The example of Steve Clarke is quite a good one, just like the example I gave of Charlie Nicholas. Right there I didn't see either happening. Ever been surprised about a team signing a player or manager you never saw coming? It happens. Why not for us? Fuck me, George Best played for Hibs!!!!!

It appears you don't like push back or a difference of opinion. Doesn't mean I am wrong because I don't agree with you. You going to cancel me because I don't toe the line now? Appropriate for society today.

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

1 hour ago, Slim said:

Jack Ross seems to have built his entire reputation on what he achieved with St Mirren in the Championship. He’s done absolutely nothing with Sunderland and Hibs to suggest he can be a successful manager. Goodwin has already done more with St Mirren than Ross did.

You’re being a bit harsh on Ross there. Finished third with Hibs, their highest for a number of years and also took them to two cup finals. This season was undoubtedly poor like.

He also made the playoff final with Sunderland and they were in decent shape when he left.

Goodwin has had a couple of seasons at St Mirren and managed a 9th and 7th so hardly pulling up trees but he seems to be highly rated so time will tell I guess.

 

 

[LA-Don]

1 hour ago, Slim said:

Jack Ross seems to have built his entire reputation on what he achieved with St Mirren in the Championship. He’s done absolutely nothing with Sunderland and Hibs to suggest he can be a successful manager. Goodwin has already done more with St Mirren than Ross did.

Jack Ross won the championship with St Mirren. After winning the league he went to Sunderland who had just been relegated for the second consecutive season to league one. Took them to league one playoffs and lost in the final. He was sacked in Oct of 2019 while sitting 6th in league one. Took over in Hibs in November, finished 7th and lost in the semis of both cups. Last season they finished 3rd in the league and again lost in the semis of both cups. He was sacked in December after losing 7 of the last 9 games, one week before the League Cup final. Not sure Maloney has done much since he was canned but they are one point above us and one behind St Mirren at present.

Goodwin finished 9th in his first year managing St. Mirren, 2019-2020, didn't advance past the group stage of the league cup and lost to us in the quarters of the Scottish Cup. 7th in 2020-2021 and lost in the semis of both cups. Currently 6th, one point but worse GD behind 4th and 5 points off 10th. Lost in the second round of the league cup, play Hearts in the quarters of the Scottish Cup.  Much like our season, this year could be a good or bad year for them.

I don't see it, sorry.......I'd take Ross before Goodwin.

[Slim]

Ross did cock-all with Sunderland despite having more resources than any other team in the league. They spent £4m on a striker and lost at Wembley twice in a season.

At Hibs he managed a third place finish with arguably the third highest budget and only real challenger was an Aberdeen team in decline. Again, he choked in multiple finals.

I’m not sure if he was responsible for recruitment at Hibs but the amount of absolute dross they acquired during his tenure was staggering. 

At least Goodwin has shown he is able of punching above his weight, something Ross has arguably never achieved.

[Kiriakovs_hair]

Controversial as it is, I would take Lennon. 
stats are great, bar the odd season. Bring some bite to the team. Goodwin and Ross maybe good options, but if Robson wanted to bring thunder to the team then Lennon would add lightning! Certainly would sort things out, but probably too much of a rebel for Cormack.

Just my opinion SF

[baggy89]

3 hours ago, LA-Don said:

Eh? Why am I wrong and why grow the fuck up? And what subject am I changing? You are, to me, being narrow minded and are making assumptions about peoples career aspirations, motives, job ambitions, and money. The example of Steve Clarke is quite a good one, just like the example I gave of Charlie Nicholas. Right there I didn't see either happening. Ever been surprised about a team signing a player or manager you never saw coming? It happens. Why not for us? Fuck me, George Best played for Hibs!!!!!

It appears you don't like push back or a difference of opinion. Doesn't mean I am wrong because I don't agree with you. You going to cancel me because I don't toe the line now? Appropriate for society today.

Based on this post, you should ask the Admins to combine your accounts under the new moniker “Florida Man…” 

Think the gator has coughed up your cowboy boots, shit you out, and Mickey has already slipped in the excrement. 

George Best at hibs.

Give up min. 

[Panda]

8 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

 

most want a manager with experience and say that’s where glass failed. Is a stint at alloa and a couple of years at st mirren good enough experience? Does that truly transfer to managing us? Hasn’t won anything, hasn’t managed outside of Scotland, no European experience. Has he even experienced a cup final, too lazy to check?

As someone pointed out, McInnes didn't arrive with much more experience than Goodwin and, for the first 4 years at least, did alright.

People look at St Johnstone & think because they won those two cups last season, that every manager of a small club should be aiming for that.

Lets be honest here, it was a fluke in a weird season when nothing was normal. 

If you look at the smaller clubs in the Premiership, the normal is that they don't win anything. Motherwell - nothing since 1991. Dundee - I'm not even sure but haven't won the Scottish Cup since 1910. Livi one trophy in their history, Ross County I think it's one in their history, etc.

What Goodwin has done at St Mirren might not look impressive, in the same way that Celtic fans wouldn't look at McInnes making four cup finals & staying top four as impressive.

But, for the size of club he's managing, he's actually doing very well which is why you'll struggle to find many St Mirren fans who want him to leave.

He's earned the chance to take on a big club with five times the budget to see what he can do. If it's not us, maybe it's Hibs or Hearts. 

Would I prefer a big name - of course, in the same way that if you had offered me a 40-year-old Ibrahimovic or Christian Ramirez with an average goal scoring record, I'd take Zlatan all day long. But Ramirez has done alright, and maybe Goodwin does too.

6 hours ago, LA-Don said:

 

 

3 hours ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

You’re being a bit harsh on Ross there. Finished third with Hibs, their highest for a number of years and also took them to two cup finals. This season was undoubtedly poor like.

He also made the playoff final with Sunderland and they were in decent shape when he left.

People talking up Hibs finishing third as an achievement.

Aberdeen were really poor that season. Hearts were out of the division.  Hibs didn't at any point appear to be impressive.

Hibs fans were desperate to get rid of Ross, even when he finished third he was getting slated. He bottled very winnable semi-finals. They were far too inconsistent. He didn't really build anything at Hibs.

The reason I rate Goodwin over Ross is because Ross, twice, has had a chance at a big club & not done the business. This is third time lucky if you like. Goodwin hasn't and there's still that unknown about him which is intriguing, but from what I've seen he has the ability to make a small club hard to beat, deal with the loss of big players, and with a bit of money you wonder what he could do with that team. And that makes me wonder what he could do with us.

2 hours ago, Kiriakovs_hair said:

Controversial as it is, I would take Lennon. 
stats are great, bar the odd season. Bring some bite to the team. Goodwin and Ross maybe good options, but if Robson wanted to bring thunder to the team then Lennon would add lightning! Certainly would sort things out, but probably too much of a rebel for Cormack.

Just my opinion SF

Are Lennon's stats good though?

Winning trophies with Celtic when you have the biggest budget - most managers in the Premiership could probably do that.

At Hibs, they were eighth when he left them. 

Lennon actually comes across as a manager who hasn't moved with the times. I'm told his training was really poor. Tactically he was poor. That Celtic team unravelled spectacularly last season. Yeh, it was a bit of a freak season, but they were in a mess when Postecoglou took over.

[tom_widdows]

4 hours ago, LA-Don said:

Eh? Why am I wrong and why grow the fuck up? And what subject am I changing? You are, to me, being narrow minded and are making assumptions about peoples career aspirations, motives, job ambitions, and money. The example of Steve Clarke is quite a good one, just like the example I gave of Charlie Nicholas. Right there I didn't see either happening. Ever been surprised about a team signing a player or manager you never saw coming? It happens. Why not for us? Fuck me, George Best played for Hibs!!!!!

It appears you don't like push back or a difference of opinion. Doesn't mean I am wrong because I don't agree with you. You going to cancel me because I don't toe the line now? Appropriate for society today.

A 34 year old george best who was past his best and allegedly was sacked by hibs for off field exploits. Boosted crowds for the novelty but team were relegated.

Let us not forget Cannigia and Ravanelli played for Dundee. That worked out great for them too

[RicoS321]

4 hours ago, LA-Don said:

Eh? Why am I wrong and why grow the fuck up? And what subject am I changing? You are, to me, being narrow minded and are making assumptions about peoples career aspirations, motives, job ambitions, and money. The example of Steve Clarke is quite a good one, just like the example I gave of Charlie Nicholas. Right there I didn't see either happening. Ever been surprised about a team signing a player or manager you never saw coming? It happens. Why not for us? Fuck me, George Best played for Hibs!!!!!

It appears you don't like push back or a difference of opinion. Doesn't mean I am wrong because I don't agree with you. You going to cancel me because I don't toe the line now? Appropriate for society today.

Nobody is cancelling anyone. Steve Clarke is a terrible example, not even close to solskjaer joining Aberdeen as even a rudimentary examination of evidence would point out. Nor Charlie Nicholas, nor George Best. The onus is not on me to come up with reasons why a person wouldn't take a 95% pay cut (or we spend 70% of our turnover on a manager) it's on you. You must surely be able to grasp that? You're the one proposing something extremely far fetched. You're accusing me of narrow mindedness, which is basically gaslighting. It's not narrow mindedness to point out basic arithmetic and critical thinking. You then try and couch the argument more generally as if I'm suggesting all foreign managers are terrible suggestions or that we shouldn't get someone at the outer reaches of our budget, when the argument is very specifically about Solskjaer. 

The paradox in your reasoning, that you don't seem to have worked out yet, is that if AFC "show ambition" by spending 70% of their turnover on a manager, then the reverse is also true. What sort of ambition would it show from Solskjaer, and why would we want someone so severely lacking in that regard? What would that say about him? The Knutsen guy is clearly ambitious and feels he can do better than us - fair enough. Goodwin is ambitious and wants to make the step up from St Mirren. What if Lewis Ferguson decided to sign a five year extension because he thinks it's an easy life at pittodrie? We'd rightly criticise him and question his strength of character. He doesn't, because he's ambitious. If the criteria is ambition, then why is the onus on the club to show ambition and not the manager it appoints? Why on earth would you want the club to show ambition to appoint someone with zero ambition? Your logic is completely and utterly flawed, but I'm 100% you know this already and you're arguing in bad faith (because you're clearly not stupid). 

Edited February 17, 2022 by RicoS321

[OrlandoDon]

Nobody is asking for or expects us to do anything financially irresponsible. I don’t see us as that club anyway, and don’t think we have been for close to 20 years. What Dundee did in the past means fuck all to me, plus they went to shit financially anyway. I don’t expect or want that.

What I am asking is that we explore every opportunity. And as I repeatedly say, if you don’t ask you don’t get. What’s the worst that can happen, we get told to fuck off.  And as I keep saying, regardless of money, why does Charlie Nicholas come to us? London and a top club like arsenal to Aberdeen?? I didn’t expect that. We were not Ferguson’s dons by then.

never heard of the Celtic manager until they signed him. And look at the players they are bringing in. they could have easily gone for a predictable premiership reject but failing with Eddie Howe, they went out and were creative. Seems to be working for them. So far. While we are on a different financial level to Celtic, let’s be equally ambitious and creative within our constraints.

Hiring glass was ambitious and risky,  but it was clear to most if not all of us that he didn’t have the experience. It showed. Learn from that.

Goodwin may be up and coming but he isn’t experienced either. He hasn’t achieved a single thing at st mirren other than preventing them from being shite. No cup, cup finals, or Europe. The expectation and pressure in that job is totally different to us. I just don’t see that much appeal to him. He may be great in the future, he may even end up shite this year and st mirren finish nearer the bottom than top of the league.

ross in not unlike mcinnes. He has proven he’s capable. Lennon is capable too. Goodwin just doesn’t have it for me. Yet. At the same time, I hope we are creative and look outside of the token fishbowl where we can all guess the candidates. I hate being linked to the same dour bunch. Again. Sorry to keep saying, shoot for the moon, but be responsible financially.
 

Can we afford OGS? Probably not. Duncan Ferguson? Unlikely. But why not ask? Leicester won the league. Never saw that coming. Villa just signed coutinho. Erickson to Brentford. Money talks but it’s still surprise signings. Why not someone special to Aberdeen? I do feel we are an appealing job and think there’s a good one out there for us. If we look and if we ask.

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

12 hours ago, Slim said:

At Hibs he managed a third place finish with arguably the third highest budget

 

9 hours ago, Panda said:

Are Lennon's stats good though?

Winning trophies with Celtic when you have the biggest budget - most managers in the Premiership could probably do that.

Jesus, we're getting a bit pedantic now boys.  We're not having anybody that's had any kind of success out with their budget eh?

Here's one for you then........Tommy Wright. He only won the cup with St Johnstone and was in the top half of the league for the most part.  In my book that would be punching above your weight by St Johnstone's standards but the guy's not good enough for us. He has had more success than Goodwin and Ross combined but most of you would turn your nose up at the prospect.