Dons - Dees

[Panda]

On 25/04/2022 at 23:29, Panda said:

Has the look of a 1-0 win, Lewis Ferguson penalty about it, not pretty but get the points.

4 8 11 15 22 40 are my lottery numbers for this evening.

[RicoS321]

A decent result today and deserved in the end. A good second hand performance, whatever Goodwin said at half time worked. That was McKenzie's best performance today, he was excellent. Besuijen, Hayes and Barron very good too and Ferguson was great in the second half after a poor half. Ramirez looked very annoyed at being subbed, but really only has himself to blame and Jenks did well in his place. Ramsay was subdued, and seemed to be stuck between going forward and defending - he was very conservative. Fantastic play from Hayes for the penalty, so direct, which is exactly what we needed. Lewis with some good saves too. Again, Bates and Gallagher aren't as good as Considine. We're making a mistake retaining that partnership.

[OrlandoDon]

40 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

A decent result today and deserved in the end. A good second hand performance, whatever Goodwin said at half time worked. That was McKenzie's best performance today, he was excellent. Besuijen, Hayes and Barron very good too and Ferguson was great in the second half after a poor half. Ramirez looked very annoyed at being subbed, but really only has himself to blame and Jenks did well in his place. Ramsay was subdued, and seemed to be stuck between going forward and defending - he was very conservative. Fantastic play from Hayes for the penalty, so direct, which is exactly what we needed. Lewis with some good saves too. Again, Bates and Gallagher aren't as good as Considine. We're making a mistake retaining that partnership.

Agree with pretty much everything here but the last part. Totally agree about Gallagher and bates, but a 35 year old defender returning from injury is not the answer. As critical as I am of goodwin, he sees Andy in training daily and assesses his options. Considine hasn’t played a game in months and is returning from a significant injury, and is leaving the club. And was slowing and declining pre injury. What makes you so sure he’ll be an improvement?

[RicoS321]

2 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Agree with pretty much everything here but the last part. Totally agree about Gallagher and bates, but a 35 year old defender returning from injury is not the answer. As critical as I am of goodwin, he sees Andy in training daily and assesses his options. Considine hasn’t played a game in months and is returning from a significant injury, and is leaving the club. And was slowing and declining pre injury. What makes you so sure he’ll be an improvement?

Because they're really, really shite? Also, neither of them can actually play left side of defence. I didn't see any evidence of Considine slowing and declining pre injury, he started the season well and was doing fine. Plenty of defenders play in the SPFL until their late thirties, it's not difficult. Mulgrew just played 90 minutes in midfield for Utd today, there's nothing in Considine's history to suggest he wouldn't manage otherwise, and you're not providing any evidence of that either. Goodwin even offered him a contract. But the reason he's not playing is because it wouldn't look good, not because of ability (which is fine, the damage is already done). The problem is that we're stuck with Bates and Gallagher next season now, and if they're continued to be played as a partnership we'll do as badly as this season (Willie Miller and Michael Stewart also said as much after the game, it's obvious). The alternative is that we have either Bates or Gallagher on the bench, which I think will be terrible for squad harmony. Both are likely on large wages and will likely be on better wages than whoever comes in to replace one of them. Either that or we let one of them go in the summer, in which case we're adding another acquisition to a massive recruitment list which I think is stupid. We should be getting rid of one of them, it just makes much more sense having a good professional who's played 500 games for the club to challenge for the first team position rather than one of two very expensive failures.

[Elgindon]

Glad to get that and this season out the way. 

   Bates and Gallacher doesn't seem to work. Not sure if Bates on his other foot would be any better,(or if hes actually the weak link),but if we can sort that pairing,maybe with an experienced head/organiser. Can't be good for Ramsay or Mckenzies development with the status quo.I'd still be happy with Lewis staying if we can find the right defensive combos.

  Have to see who stays/goes for the other areas.Good to see some young prospects blooded in the remaining games

 

   

  

[OrlandoDon]

34 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Because they're really, really shite? Also, neither of them can actually play left side of defence. I didn't see any evidence of Considine slowing and declining pre injury, he started the season well and was doing fine. Plenty of defenders play in the SPFL until their late thirties, it's not difficult. Mulgrew just played 90 minutes in midfield for Utd today, there's nothing in Considine's history to suggest he wouldn't manage otherwise, and you're not providing any evidence of that either. Goodwin even offered him a contract. But the reason he's not playing is because it wouldn't look good, not because of ability (which is fine, the damage is already done). The problem is that we're stuck with Bates and Gallagher next season now, and if they're continued to be played as a partnership we'll do as badly as this season (Willie Miller and Michael Stewart also said as much after the game, it's obvious). The alternative is that we have either Bates or Gallagher on the bench, which I think will be terrible for squad harmony. Both are likely on large wages and will likely be on better wages than whoever comes in to replace one of them. Either that or we let one of them go in the summer, in which case we're adding another acquisition to a massive recruitment list which I think is stupid. We should be getting rid of one of them, it just makes much more sense having a good professional who's played 500 games for the club to challenge for the first team position rather than one of two very expensive failures.

Agree that bates and Gallagher don’t look good but Andy was in decline before the injury. He could no longer play left back cos he was so slow, and that was before an injury. He’s old. He was an all or nothing defender before the injury who overcommitted and dove in to tackles because he wasn’t quick enough to recover or catch players. We don’t give away as many penalties with Andy out of the team, guessing there but big Andy gave away a fair few.

anyway, agree with you, we’re stuck with bates and Gallagher but hopefully we sign a legit left sided central defender over the summer.  

[RicoS321]

17 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Agree that bates and Gallagher don’t look good but Andy was in decline before the injury. He could no longer play left back cos he was so slow, and that was before an injury. He’s old. He was an all or nothing defender before the injury who overcommitted and dove in to tackles because he wasn’t quick enough to recover or catch players. We don’t give away as many penalties with Andy out of the team, guessing there but big Andy gave away a fair few.

anyway, agree with you, we’re stuck with bates and Gallagher but hopefully we sign a legit left sided central defender over the summer.  

You're going to have to show me the evidence on the point in bold. Pretty certain that's not true. Considine got his first Scotland caps after he was too slow to play left back. It wasn't an issue, just as it isn't for mulgrew and many others.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting he should be playing every week, I think we should be signing a left sided centre half. The only points I'm making is that he's already better than the two centre backs we have on the left and he's a fantastic and safe player to have as a reliable squad member. Panda mentioned the youth lad playing in Ireland, so hopefully he can be the reliable squad member instead. I can see us playing Gallagher and Bates (probably shoehorning them into a three) next season in order to justify their wages. It's a crap situation. I'd like to see one, or both, released, but that would make the ditching of Considine even more perplexing.

[OrlandoDon]

I’m not debating, it gets exhausting with people here who are blind to the obvious. Look up past results if you are so determined, big Andy was good at regularly gifting penalties. You can mourn the loss of Andy if you like but he’s no solution to our defensive issues. We need to look forward and find better players, and I’d even invest time and effort with bates and Gallagher since they’ll most likely be here next year. They’ve been pretty poor to date but if we’re stuck with them let’s try to improve them.

[sheepheid]

16 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

You're going to have to show me the evidence on the point in bold. Pretty certain that's not true. Considine got his first Scotland caps after he was too slow to play left back. It wasn't an issue, just as it isn't for mulgrew and many others.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting he should be playing every week, I think we should be signing a left sided centre half. The only points I'm making is that he's already better than the two centre backs we have on the left and he's a fantastic and safe player to have as a reliable squad member. Panda mentioned the youth lad playing in Ireland, so hopefully he can be the reliable squad member instead. I can see us playing Gallagher and Bates (probably shoehorning them into a three) next season in order to justify their wages. It's a crap situation. I'd like to see one, or both, released, but that would make the ditching of Considine even more perplexing.

Regarding points in bold….

1. He WAS better than the two centre backs we currently have. We have no idea what he is like now but at his age and coming back from that sort of injury, with what was already a lack of pace, I doubt he’s any better or even the same as he was. 

2. Part of the issue with him leaving was that he wanted guarantees on playing time, not to be just a squad member, so that’s not going to happen unless there is a reconciliation. 

 

[OrlandoDon]

I think we have to also consider that bates and Gallagher didn’t become bad defenders over night. Both, like Andy, have played for Scotland, and have more caps than Andy. On paper they are better players.

both are playing for a shit team right now that is completely shot for confidence and skirting with a relegation battle. Who is to say how Andy performs given those circumstances. Andy played well on a good team, we’re miles away from that team now, and Andy is limited in pace, decision making, and distribution. It’s easy to say he’d be better than the current level, but playing for us these days is not an easy gig.

anyway, shut out and a win today! Congrats!!

Edited April 30, 2022 by OrlandoDon

[manc_don]

I’d question whether Gallagher’s partners have made him look good previously. I see no evidence of a footballer. 

glad to wake up to a positive result for a change. Will check out the highlights later.

[donsdaft]

Both Gallacher and Bates have to go.

Because.....they're shite.

I never really understand the left right argument when it comes to central defenders.

They are central, should be playing one in front of the other.

[BigAl]

3 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

Agree that bates and Gallagher don’t look good but Andy was in decline before the injury. He could no longer play left back cos he was so slow, and that was before an injury. He’s old. He was an all or nothing defender before the injury who overcommitted and dove in to tackles because he wasn’t quick enough to recover or catch players. We don’t give away as many penalties with Andy out of the team, guessing there but big Andy gave away a fair few.

anyway, agree with you, we’re stuck with bates and Gallagher but hopefully we sign a legit left sided central defender over the summer.  

We already have one.

Luke Turner on season loan at Cliftonville and very probably going to be their POTY.

Bring him home 

[OrlandoDon]

2 hours ago, donsdaft said:

Both Gallacher and Bates have to go.

Because.....they're shite.

I never really understand the left right argument when it comes to central defenders.

They are central, should be playing one in front of the other.

You mean miller behind McLeish? Teams haven’t played that way in years. It’s a flat 3 or 4 for the most part, you very rarely see a sweeper now.

[tlg1903]

This may seem a bit deluded but there's a player in bates imo.... we ain't seeing it right now though for sure.  I can't help but wonder that Gallagher might be a lost cause though. I think he can only play in a 3 2bh as a big lump of meat in the middle.  He's basically a shit Phillip Senderos. 

Our dodgy defence aside I honestly don't give a fuck how well or otherwise we played.  We won, St johnstone lost, I think we can all relax and look forward to the rebuild now. A lot of hearts, hibs and Jute fans I have slated for being tinpot yo yo clubs were getting far to bolshy recently. 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by tlg1903

[manc_don]

2 hours ago, tlg1903 said:

This may seem a bit deluded but there's a player in bates imo.... we ain't seeing it right now though for sure.  I can't help but wonder that Gallagher might be a lost cause though. I think he can only play in a 3 2bh as a big lump of meat in the middle.  He's basically a shit Phillip Senderos. 

Our dodgy defence aside I honestly don't give a fuck how well or otherwise we played.  We won, St johnstone lost, I think we can all relax and look forward to the rebuild now. A lot of hearts, hibs and Jute fans I have slated for being tinpot yo yo clubs were getting far to bolshy recently. 

 

I think that's it, isn't it? I just want the season to be done with and see what actually happens this summer / winter. Hopefully he'll be backed well and manages to find a squad that plays how he wants us to.  I'm not counting my chickens just yet but we should be ok. Surely?

[Jute]

Thought we were poor in the first half yesterday and if it wasn’t for some good saves by Lewis we would have been behind before half time. As others have said Bates and Gallagher were abysmal. As a pairing they definitely don’t work and more and more convinced that neither will be much better playing beside another partner. Both and Considine are however better than Charles Dunne. We were better in second half but penalty was only way we were going to score. Think Hayes dived to get the penalty as did MacKenzie in earlier incident. However with the win and St Johnstone’s defeat we can now forget this season and never discuss it again. 
 

[RicoS321]

12 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

I’m not debating, it gets exhausting with people here who are blind to the obvious. Look up past results if you are so determined, big Andy was good at regularly gifting penalties

That's not obvious at all, that's something you've convinced yourself is true but you're not backing up with evidence. Bates has given away 2 this season (Gallagher one). I doubt Considine has ever given away more than that in a season. Maybe in his first couple of seasons. The Wikipedia definition for the term gifting penalties actually had to be rewritten after Bates' disaster against utd, as they'd found the pinnacle of examples.

12 hours ago, sheepheid said:

Regarding points in bold….

1. He WAS better than the two centre backs we currently have. We have no idea what he is like now but at his age and coming back from that sort of injury, with what was already a lack of pace, I doubt he’s any better or even the same as he was. 

2. Part of the issue with him leaving was that he wanted guarantees on playing time, not to be just a squad member, so that’s not going to happen unless there is a reconciliation. 

 

You're right, we have no idea, but given Goodwin offered him a contract, it suggests he was deemed fit. I doubt he'd have lost much from his game in that short a space of time. His game has never been based on pace, it's not like he'd have to adapt.

No player is guaranteed game time. What is likely to have been said, and correctly so, is that he's a better left centre back than the existing options and he should be ahead of them in the team. He should be in the team now. The problem I have (and I expect Andy had) is that both Bates and Gallagher will be expecting to be first team players, and with moving Considine on it suggests that is being granted. He's being overlooked for worse players quite simply.

[sheepheid]

For what it’s worth, I’d personally like Considine and the club to come to some sort of agreement and hope all is not lost.  Even if Gallagher and Bates are deemed first choice, consi has been here before where he’s apparently been down the pecking order. Through training well, being a mode professional, he has forced his way back in, to the point where he was one of the first names on the team sheet. It would be great to see him with us for another year, instead of next to Ash in Ayrshire or playing in the championship for Cove. 

[Slim]

Stuart Findlay isn’t getting a game for Philadelphia in the MLS, he’s left sided. Could offer them Ramirez as a swap if he really is intending to move back.

[donsdaft]

11 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

You mean miller behind McLeish? Teams haven’t played that way in years. It’s a flat 3 or 4 for the most part, you very rarely see a sweeper now.

...and you can see the result

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

I wonder about the coaching in respect of Bates and Gallagher. Both of these lads have played a few times for Scotland and Gallagher in particular looked a real solid defender for the national team in the Euro qualification. You don’t just fluke your way into the national team, they both played their way in and have not suddenly become bad players. Not suggesting they are world beaters but a back line of those two plus Lewis, Ramsay and A N other should be well capable of keeping clean sheets against St Mirren, Ross County and the other shitey teams in our league. Something sadly amiss with the tactics and coaching both with the Glass regime and the start of the Goodwin era.

[RicoS321]

55 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

I wonder about the coaching in respect of Bates and Gallagher. Both of these lads have played a few times for Scotland and Gallagher in particular looked a real solid defender for the national team in the Euro qualification. You don’t just fluke your way into the national team, they both played their way in and have not suddenly become bad players. Not suggesting they are world beaters but a back line of those two plus Lewis, Ramsay and A N other should be well capable of keeping clean sheets against St Mirren, Ross County and the other shitey teams in our league. Something sadly amiss with the tactics and coaching both with the Glass regime and the start of the Goodwin era.

Gallagher had a pish final season at Motherwell. You don't fluke your way into the national team, but there are lots of examples of players who just have a good season or so (18-24 months in Gallagher's case) and then live off that. I have a feeling Gallagher might be that guy. Bates was in purely because he played for the Huns and Hamburg and was expected to be good rather than based on performance. He's played more games for us this season than he's ever played in his career, but at 25 I'm hoping that he might fulfill his potential. I genuinely think most of his issues are to do with playing on the left. His body shape is just constantly wrong. He got easily skinned yesterday in a one on one because he had his weight on his wrong foot, setup as if he were facing a player on the opposite side. When he walks out of defence with the ball he keeps it between his feet to avoid taking it on his weaker left, which results in him having to hook his right foot round the ball or adjust his position and hurry his pass. It's so obvious, I'm surprised none of the coaching staff have forced it out of him. I think he could be half decent on the right side of defence. McRorie was honking on that side too for what it's worth. I'd let Gallagher leave and switch Bates right and let Turner battle it out for a place with somebody much better than Dunne.

[RicoS321]

17 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

I’m not debating, it gets exhausting with people here who are blind to the obvious. Look up past results if you are so determined, big Andy was good at regularly gifting penalties.

I just checked, in the previous three league seasons (not this one, obviously) Considine gave away three pens (one for handball). Not really regular by any stretch.

[tlg1903]

11 hours ago, manc_don said:

I think that's it, isn't it? I just want the season to be done with and see what actually happens this summer / winter. Hopefully he'll be backed well and manages to find a squad that plays how he wants us to.  I'm not counting my chickens just yet but we should be ok. Surely?

St J would need to win all remaining games and we need to lose ours to be caught by them. It should be done in other words.