McInnes' Killie v Goodwin's Dons

[RicoS321]

2 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

even though all signs show he’s good enough for the job

Somebody has stolen your "not"

[OrlandoDon]

1 minute ago, RicoS321 said:

Somebody has stolen your "not"

Hahaha! That’s a word omission that slightly changes the sentence. Correct, insert ‘not.’

[sheepheid]

13 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Giving a manager one window to sign ten players isn't backing him massively though. Backing him would be allowing him to build a team. There are some serious cracks appearing that suggest that might not be a good idea. I just hate to see this suggestion that because money he should be coasting in third, it's not fair. You can't just buy success in a single season, just ask the Huns. We should be expecting inconsistency in a new team, and the expectation should have been made clear by our chairman at the beginning of the season. If we were to punt Goodwin - for tactical ineptitude - a new manager should be backed over a few windows. It's important to separate the two. The club are in the position they are in due to Cormack. 

I don’t think many are suggesting we should be coasting in third. However, The fact that we held on to third for such a long time, shows how shite the standard is. Ironically, a good manager would have us coasting in third

Goodwin’s setup including his tactics, subs, stubbornness etc are the issue.

it’s a waste of time to give him another window and a waste of money. 
 

[wee toon red]

It’s exactly this scenario where the director of football appointment should come into its own. We should be able to fire a manager and trust that the DOF will be able to oversee the January window but I’ve probably got even less confidence in Gunn than I do in goodwin.

[BigAl]

Home

Totally frozen

Soaked

Pissed off

Absolutely raging

Going to my bed

Nae doubt suffer from recurring nightmares featuring AFC.

Pick this up the morn.

[OrlandoDon]

Interesting post match interview from goodwin. Does he have the support of the players for them to respond? 3 losses in a row and then produce the worst performance of the season that lacked effort. Suggests all is not well.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, sheepheid said:

I don’t think many are suggesting we should be coasting in third. However, The fact that we held on to third for such a long time, shows how shite the standard is. Ironically, a good manager would have us coasting in third

Goodwin’s setup including his tactics, subs, stubbornness etc are the issue.

it’s a waste of time to give him another window and a waste of money. 
 

I'm not sure a good manager would have had us coasting in third with this team. We have some serious personnel issues. We were destined to be inconsistent. I think it's important to separate the money spent from the manager's performance. If Goodwin had got lucky with a couple more recruits we could have been cruising, but it wouldn't make Goodwin a better manager (or vice versa). His tactical ineptitude can be taken on its own merit of course, and I agree with you that it's been lacking many times this season.

There are some fundamental problems at the club. I think it's vital that Cormack doesn't think he can just throw some money at signings and believe he's done his bit, and we can all just blame the manager.

In terms of giving him money, I disagree completely. I think we (Cormack) need to stop thinking in terms of giving managers money. The whole recruitment system was changed, I'm assuming, with this in mind. There are players that aren't good enough to be in the squad who need dealt with, and positions that need to be filled. That doesn't change with the manager. A new manager won't take five minutes off of Stewart's pace over ten yards for example. It's the club that is signing players for the club's money. The manager has a role to play, of course, but the power should remain with the recruitment team in the main, and that should transcend the manager. We simply can't afford to waste another window. The single biggest disaster when getting rid of McInnes is that we halted recruitment in the January (and then followed it up by not getting the recruitment team in before Glass had sat down in front of championship manager with a red wine). Missing a window sets you back at least another one, and set us back three. We should have the confidence in our recruitment team to deliver a 50% return on signings, meaning we should have at least one less worry in the summer. 

[OrlandoDon]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

I'm not sure a good manager would have had us coasting in third with this team. We have some serious personnel issues. We were destined to be inconsistent. I think it's important to separate the money spent from the manager's performance. If Goodwin had got lucky with a couple more recruits we could have been cruising, but it wouldn't make Goodwin a better manager (or vice versa). His tactical ineptitude can be taken on its own merit of course, and I agree with you that it's been lacking many times this season.

There are some fundamental problems at the club. I think it's vital that Cormack doesn't think he can just throw some money at signings and believe he's done his bit, and we can all just blame the manager.

In terms of giving him money, I disagree completely. I think we (Cormack) need to stop thinking in terms of giving managers money. The whole recruitment system was changed, I'm assuming, with this in mind. There are players that aren't good enough to be in the squad who need dealt with, and positions that need to be filled. That doesn't change with the manager. A new manager won't take five minutes off of Stewart's pace over ten yards for example. It's the club that is signing players for the club's money. The manager has a role to play, of course, but the power should remain with the recruitment team in the main, and that should transcend the manager. We simply can't afford to waste another window. The single biggest disaster when getting rid of McInnes is that we halted recruitment in the January (and then followed it up by not getting the recruitment team in before Glass had sat down in front of championship manager with a red wine). Missing a window sets you back at least another one, and set us back three. We should have the confidence in our recruitment team to deliver a 50% return on signings, meaning we should have at least one less worry in the summer. 

I made a comment the other day and I’ll ask again, what is our recruitment policy? We restructured recruitment but what exactly are the roles? Does Gunn identify and sign players, and the manager is ultimately the coach who coaches the team? How much say does the manager have in signings? Are the poor signings goodwin’s fault? I’ll say it again, it did sound like we paid good money for morris and Richardson! Wtf.
You say 50% return on recruitment, we signed 11 - roos, Stewart, duk, scales, clarkson, coulson, ramadani, miovski, Roberts, morris, and Richardson, and out of those I think so far scales, miovski, ramadani, clarkson, and duk appear squad upgrades. I’ll also assume we’ll not keep scales or clarkson so that leaves 3 players that will be here next year. But I also wonder if we get decent money offers for duk and or miovski. A lot of pressure on recruitment for January and the summer.

I like cormack and I can’t see him canning goodwin given his 2-3 window comments recently, plus it doesn’t look good for cormack if he were to can a second manager in a row in less than a season.

The manager was very disappointed in our fight today, we were outworked all game by killie. i seem to recall squad leadership grit and determination were repeatedly highlighted and praised early season. Where has that gone? Something is clearly wrong and goodwin’s interview tone and concern was a first tonight.

[Panda]

3 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

plus it doesn’t look good for cormack if he were to can a second manager in a row in less than a season.

No I don't think so. You see chairman sacking managers because they haven't lived up to unrealistic expectations. I don't think that's the case with McInnes, Glass or Goodwin who have all fallen below expectations. Rangers have recently binned a manager who got them to a European final and won the Scottish Cup six months previous.

I wanted Goodwin to get the job and therefore I don't blame Cormack for appointing him. I also don't blame Cormack for the recruitment because he backed him financially in summer. 

The worrying thing is I don't think new players in January solves Goodwin's problems. Yes he might find better individuals than Stewart and Richardson, but he'll still make numerous tactical blunders, he'll still have no idea how to get the best out of McCrorie and Barron in particular.

The lack of fight which he directed at the players is down to him - he got rid of the team's leaders. 

And how can you accuse the players of a lack of fight when you were praising them 10 days ago for time wasting at home v Celtic to try and get a point because you had no belief in them?

 

He started with a bull in a China shop approach which binned Scott Brown, said the squad wasn't up to it when hoping they might still deliver top six & Europe, and publicly embarrassed Considine, Bates & Ramirez.

He spent summer chasing wingers and ignoring the defence.

And this season we've had games at home where we've looked good on the front foot but been helped massively by penalties and red cards. It's been papering over cracks stuff. On the road we've been found out.

Taken to extra-time by Annan. Easily beaten at Easter Road. Hammered at Ibrox. Thumped at Tannadice. Defeats in Paisley and Livingston. And had we not been playing a Derek McInnes team who sat back on 2-0 we could have had another hiding at Rugby Park.

The midfield constantly over run. A calamitous defence. Little service to the strikers. Subs that make no sense. 

It's not working, and January isn't going to fix it. I don't expect him to be sacked before Ross County, but Cormack now needs to begin thinking seriously of a replacement.

[Slim]

Has Tam Courts finished his Kasabian tribute band European Tour?

[Jute]

8 minutes ago, Slim said:

Has Tam Courts finished his Kasabian tribute band European Tour?

Released by “mutual consent” back in October. 

[RicoS321]

7 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

I made a comment the other day and I’ll ask again, what is our recruitment policy? We restructured recruitment but what exactly are the roles? Does Gunn identify and sign players, and the manager is ultimately the coach who coaches the team? How much say does the manager have in signings? Are the poor signings goodwin’s fault? I’ll say it again, it did sound like we paid good money for morris and Richardson! Wtf.
You say 50% return on recruitment, we signed 11 - roos, Stewart, duk, scales, clarkson, coulson, ramadani, miovski, Roberts, morris, and Richardson, and out of those I think so far scales, miovski, ramadani, clarkson, and duk appear squad upgrades. I’ll also assume we’ll not keep scales or clarkson so that leaves 3 players that will be here next year. But I also wonder if we get decent money offers for duk and or miovski. A lot of pressure on recruitment for January and the summer.

I like cormack and I can’t see him canning goodwin given his 2-3 window comments recently, plus it doesn’t look good for cormack if he were to can a second manager in a row in less than a season.

The manager was very disappointed in our fight today, we were outworked all game by killie. i seem to recall squad leadership grit and determination were repeatedly highlighted and praised early season. Where has that gone? Something is clearly wrong and goodwin’s interview tone and concern was a first tonight.

When I say 50%, I meant that was normal, not that we actually managed it! By success, I just mean players that don't make us any worse. In terms of saleable assets, maybe one a season and two if we're lucky.

Our strategy appears to be "data" over scouting. To spread out net further and work in tandem with Atlanta. That recruitment does the leg work and identifies targets which Goodwin gets final say or veto over. All okay in theory. However, Stewart appears to have been someone Goodwin had prior interest in, so there are still times when a manager can identify a player. What happens in that instance, I'm not sure, but it's worrying. McInnes would regularly identify a guy he'd played against once as the basis for signing, and I hoped we were beyond that now. In my opinion, Goodwin should be allowed to recommend a player in the same way as any other scout would. At that point, they're churned through the process with strengths and weaknesses identified, with the opportunity for recruitment to veto. Either that didn't happen in Stewart's case, or somehow the glaringly obvious issues of pace, pace on the turn and time required on the ball weren't highlighted in the data. I'm hoping that there is some sort of learning process in place where we monitor our players actual stats to allow for comparison in future signings. Whatever Stewart's pace over ten yards is, or number of unenforced misplaced passes, for example, should see them vetoed.

It'll be interesting to see, over time, how the more widespread recruitment policy goes, with data replacing actual scouting. The examples in England so far, that you highlight, are worrying. None have eclipsed anything that we've seen with traditional scouting over the years, although I'm wondering if it's a mix of both still in England. It's easier to use England as a benchmark as that's where we've traditionally got players from. You'd expect that if our new recruitment process was working, we'd see improvement there too. It's 100% failure on English signings so far!

The most concerning aspect is that we appear to have shut off the safe signing with SPFL experience route. That is a huge issue for me, especially in a summer where we had such a turnover. Not every signing has to be the next big thing, and we risk an inconsistent team by trying to make that true. Devlin from Livingston, for example (just an example, I don't know enough about the lad if I'm honest, or his contract situation), would have been an easy safe bet for right back. Aggressive and hard working and ten times better than Richardson. Just enough reliability to keep things ticking over. Cormack seems to be very much in the "foreign=automatically good" line of thinking (like a lot of fans), without any real evidence to back that up. We've not unearthed a Ferguson yet, nor a Shinnie, McLean or even Cosgrove. However, the important thing is that recruitment keeps its process in place, with emphasis on signing players for the club and not the manager, who is just a temporary fixture.

[RicoS321]

4 hours ago, Panda said:

He started with a bull in a China shop approach which binned Scott Brown

Jebus. Brown was a fucking awful signing who just needed the slight tip into retirement. He was getting danced around for fun. You absolutely could not have an assistant manager forced upon you. That would just be weird. He's not the type of guy that sits quietly in the dressing room and there'd be a huge potential for him to undermine the manager. You're right about other leaders, but in fairness I think that's what he thought he was getting in Stewart. With Hayes, Ramadani, McRorie, Roos, there's a decent amount of experience. The problem that Brown and Stewart have in terms of leadership on the park, is that you have to be performing in order to back it up.

[sheepheid]

5 hours ago, Panda said:

had we not been playing a Derek McInnes team who sat back on 2-0 we could have had another hiding at Rugby Park.

That is a very real and scary prospect!

[sheepheid]

Last time we played a team that were bottom of the league, on a terrible run and couldn’t get win for love nor money, we got pumped 4-0 by Dundee Utd. 
Ross County away is actually quite scary. 

[redordead]

I'm not against the policy of bringing in youth with quality to move on. However inevitably you lose power in the team. This is why an Ajax don't launch the ball 70yds. 

We need a possession based style of play and Jim doesn't have the skills to introduce it.

If you want to bring in technically good players, you need a technicality good coach.  I totally believe that a big Ange For example would have us nipping at the heels of the ugly sisters with a team that play their parts in the grand plan.

We don't have a plan full stop and as a result are making players worse than they were when they arrived.

Turn as Stewart had been. I don't think we bought him to spend 80 minutes defending the six yard box. He is as decent ball winner and tries to pass out. This works a lot better when you're the team applying the pressure.

[RicoS321]

2 minutes ago, sheepheid said:

Ross County away is actually quite scary

You're right. We should probably try and get it switched to pittodrie 

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

Forget signings, transfer windows, formations and style of play for a moment. Biggest issue for me is we are far too easy to play against. A lot people say a team is often the mirror image of their manager and with Goodwin it seems nothing could be further from the truth.
There’s no one in our team the opposition would hate to be playing against. There’s no one nasty, we don’t concede enough fouls, not enough bookings. He was past it by the time he came to Pittodrie but we need a couple with the Scott Brown mentality.

[BigAl]

3 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

You're right. We should probably try and get it switched to pittodrie 

Nice one Rico

Just checked and it has been 

[RicoS321]

1 minute ago, redordead said:

I'm not against the policy of bringing in youth with quality to move on. However inevitably you lose power in the team. This is why an Ajax don't launch the ball 70yds. 

We need a possession based style of play and Jim doesn't have the skills to introduce it.

If you want to bring in technically good players, you need a technicality good coach.  I totally believe that a big Ange For example would have us nipping at the heels of the ugly sisters with a team that play their parts in the grand plan.

We don't have a plan full stop and as a result are making players worse than they were when they arrived.

Turn as Stewart had been. I don't think we bought him to spend 80 minutes defending the six yard box. He is as decent ball winner and tries to pass out. This works a lot better when you're the team applying the pressure.

Ajax are a terrible example. They are the equivalent of Celtic. You can't just implement a style, you need players with the capability to perform it. "Big Ange", would not be able to play the way Celtic play with a team with Aberdeen's budget. He can't even get Celtic to play the way Celtic play when in Europe, because it's a style that is relative to the league you play in and the quality of player. 

Stewart isn't good enough at passing out of defence, even with time on the ball. When we're applying the pressure, we always have to worry about the slow guy at the back who's going to get turned inside out on the break. We didn't buy him to spend 80 minutes defending his own box, but that's most certainly his best attribute, and what his game is entirely suited to. That's why he was such a bad signing, and why we had to switch to a back three to accommodate him.

[BigAl]

11 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

Interesting post match interview from goodwin. Does he have the support of the players for them to respond? 3 losses in a row and then produce the worst performance of the season that lacked effort. Suggests all is not well.

Was at the game last night.

Couldn't being myself to watch Sportscene until just now.

Also just watched the full interview post match.

It screams out, that Goodwin is broken and he knows it

Darvel management and players no doubt there last night and will be told we are vulnerable and go for it when we come calling next month

Troubling times 

[sheepheid]

32 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

You're right. We should probably try and get it switched to pittodrie 

Ah yes…. Spot the loony. No idea what I was thinking 

[Panda]

2 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

Jebus. Brown was a fucking awful signing who just needed the slight tip into retirement. He was getting danced around for fun.

Brown had more good games than bad. In the first half of last season he was one of our better players.

We should have played him in a deeper role - possibly even defence - but to label him an awful signing when he out performed most of his team-mates, was generally fit and available to play 90 minutes each week, and was a proper leader - I'm not sure what people really expected from him.

Steve Davis at Rangers is a prime example. Still a very important part of the squad but they don't build the team around him and accept he's not going to play every week. We overused Brown. That was one of Glass' big errors, but he likely would have naturally played less this season anyway had he stayed. 

2 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

 

You absolutely could not have an assistant manager forced upon you. That would just be weird.

Actually, it's very normal. Ange Postecoglou for one had his entire coaching team forced upon him by Celtic.

2 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

He's not the type of guy that sits quietly in the dressing room and there'd be a huge potential for him to undermine the manager.

Your example is a bit extreme, but having someone at the club with an alternative view to Goodwin wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. We have a squad and staff put together by Goodwin who are all yes men. 

2 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

 

[redordead]

On 29/12/2022 at 11:47, RicoS321 said:

Ajax are a terrible example. They are the equivalent of Celtic. You can't just implement a style, you need players with the capability to perform it. "Big Ange", would not be able to play the way Celtic play with a team with Aberdeen's budget. He can't even get Celtic to play the way Celtic play when in Europe, because it's a style that is relative to the league you play in and the quality of player. 

Stewart isn't good enough at passing out of defence, even with time on the ball. When we're applying the pressure, we always have to worry about the slow guy at the back who's going to get turned inside out on the break. We didn't buy him to spend 80 minutes defending his own box, but that's most certainly his best attribute, and what his game is entirely suited to. That's why he was such a bad signing, and why we had to switch to a back three to accommodate him.

Sorry been busy. Happy new year.

However Celtic were very much like Celtic in Europe minus the finishing.

Look at Brighton for example. They play in a certain way without big names and punch above their weight.

Whilst others want to give Jim a couple of windows. It's rather someone with a style of play came in.

Hypothetically speaking. If Brendan ( for example) fancied a trip back to Scotland and came to the dons. Are you honestly telling me he couldn't improve the performances after a few weeks in the training ground because of our squad?

[RicoS321]

4 hours ago, redordead said:

Sorry been busy. Happy new year.

However Celtic were very much like Celtic in Europe minus the finishing.

Look at Brighton for example. They play in a certain way without big names and punch above their weight.

Whilst others want to give Jim a couple of windows. It's rather someone with a style of play came in.

Hypothetically speaking. If Brendan ( for example) fancied a trip back to Scotland and came to the dons. Are you honestly telling me he couldn't improve the performances after a few weeks in the training ground because of our squad?

Not sure, I'm not on first name terms with Celtic managers.