Ross County v Robson's Reds

[Elgindon]

Uncomfortable but good win in the end.If we can make better use of the ball when we have it in these type of games it might be less squeeky bum

 Pressure on Hearts. Hope we appeal the Shinnie red card. Re Clarkson - says he's loved every minute here, hopefully a deal can be done but maybe optimistic

    

  

   

Edited April 14, 2023 by Elgindon

[DantheDon]

Did he not get stuck on the bench last time he was loaned to the championship? I know that some teams like to rotate where they loan players to but surely at this stage of his career playing regularily and in Europe is good for him.

[SeeBass]

If we manage to pull off third place or even cement fourth given such a poor run after World Cup break I think the likes of Mattie Pollock, Leighton Clarkson, Duk, will be remembered fondly in years to come where this one season is concerned especially our No.18 loan man.  

Not really sure what went wrong in those six losses and one draw in eight games after World Cup but even if that draw was a win and two of the losses were wins (2-1 up on Rangers deep into injury time and took lead in Paisley) the battle to be best of the rest would probably be over with an extra seven points. 

Hindsight is a great thing but makes you wonder about the mentality of a footballer given how this squad gave up on Jim Goodwin although even if we'd got the predicted haul I talked about above there is no guarantee we'd have seven wins in eight fixtures since Barry Robson took over with Jim in charge.

     

[scotfree]

I know it's only been 9 games that Barry Robson has been in charge but he has a win rate of 77%. Nine goals against us and fifteen for us. And when you think that the 3-1 St Mirren game was the first game after the Goodwin fuckknuckle horror games. I'm trying not to get too far ahead of myself, though...

[scotfree]

6 minutes ago, SeeBass said:

If we manage to pull off third place or even cement fourth given such a poor run after World Cup break I think the likes of Mattie Pollock, Leighton Clarkson, Duk, will be remembered fondly in years to come where this one season is concerned especially our No.18 loan man.  

Not really sure what went wrong in those six losses and one draw in eight games after World Cup but even if that draw was a win and two of the losses were wins (2-1 up on Rangers deep into injury time and took lead in Paisley) the battle to be best of the rest would probably be over with an extra seven points. 

Hindsight is a great thing but makes you wonder about the mentality of a footballer given how this squad gave up on Jim Goodwin although even if we'd got the predicted haul I talked about above there is no guarantee we'd have seven wins in eight fixtures since Barry Robson took over with Jim in charge.

     

 

[RicoS321]

25 minutes ago, DantheDon said:

Did he not get stuck on the bench last time he was loaned to the championship? I know that some teams like to rotate where they loan players to but surely at this stage of his career playing regularily and in Europe is good for him.

He's had an entire season in the SPFL and been a stand out. There is nothing more for him to learn with us, he'd just be playing within himself staying, to the detriment of his career. Playing four games in the group stages of Europe isn't going to impress his parent club either. Top end championship down South is a step up from here and that's where he should be aiming, or abroad. He needs challenged to improve and to see if his passing game can cope at a higher level. We might get Coulson back for next season though....

[tom_widdows]

34 minutes ago, SeeBass said:

 

Hindsight is a great thing but makes you wonder about the mentality of a footballer given how this squad gave up on Jim Goodwin although even if we'd got the predicted haul I talked about above there is no guarantee we'd have seven wins in eight fixtures since Barry Robson took over with Jim in charge.

     

Perhaps your manager sending you out to spend 90mins getting battered by a tic team who had not that long b4 been done by St Mirren with the plan being to get a 0-0 draw would put the seeds of mutiny on anyones mind.

It certainly would for me even more so when with 3 mins left, plan A is fucked and yer breathing out yer arse yer told to throw the kitchen sink at the best defence in the league who are so well rested they could have set up deck chairs in their own penalty area.

Getting outclassed by superior opponents is one thing.

For your manager to tell you to let them walk over you on your home patch is another. He doesnt believe in you, so why should you believe in him?

 

 

 

[SeeBass]

Rico, have I missed something.  Why would he only be playing four games in a Group Stage scenario????

[Panda]

2 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

Maybe not even MacDonald who doesn't have a club, although it'd be great if so.

MacDonald has said he wants to stay. We absolutely have to get that deal done, a colossus tonight.

2 hours ago, SeeBass said:

 

Hindsight is a great thing but makes you wonder about the mentality of a footballer given how this squad gave up on Jim Goodwin 

     

I don't think the players threw in the towel to the extent many suggest.

Against Hibs they were a disorganised mess. Very few weren't actually trying.

Jim Goodwin was the one who threw in the towel in that game. Couldn't even be arsed with damage limitation - and there's every chance that game still costs us third if it comes down to goal difference.

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

We might get Coulson back for next season though....

Don't think the king, sorry Robson, really cares for him that much. 

21 minutes ago, SeeBass said:

Rico, have I missed something.  Why would he only be playing four games in a Group Stage scenario????

Because he likely won't be able to play against his parent club Liverpool in the group stages (although in Europe that rule is more relaxed so it would be a gentleman's agreement).

[OrlandoDon]

How much of a factor is shinnie in this change of fortune? Didn’t think it was a red tonight either.

[manc_don]

Wasn’t a great watch or performance by any stretch of the imagination, but fuck me did we miss Ramadani. Didnt think much of Duncan either other than his shot tbh. Midfield couldn’t get a grip on the game at all but our defence did a sterling job and we really need to get that CB pairing locked in. I know it’s unlikely but what a difference it is having competent footballers playing in a logical system. 
 

I still cannot see why that was offside by the way? At the time I thought it was a perfectly timed ball through and seeing the replay hasn’t changed my opinion in the slightest. 
 

oh and the red, surely it’s both red or neither? Both were studs up

[RicoS321]

3 hours ago, manc_don said:

Wasn’t a great watch or performance by any stretch of the imagination, but fuck me did we miss Ramadani. Didnt think much of Duncan either other than his shot tbh. Midfield couldn’t get a grip on the game at all but our defence did a sterling job and we really need to get that CB pairing locked in. I know it’s unlikely but what a difference it is having competent footballers playing in a logical system. 
 

I still cannot see why that was offside by the way? At the time I thought it was a perfectly timed ball through and seeing the replay hasn’t changed my opinion in the slightest. 
 

oh and the red, surely it’s both red or neither? Both were studs up

Harsh on Duncan, I thought his work rate and link up were excellent in the second half, and great to get ninety minutes in a game like that for a lad that's only just turned 19.

In terms of the offside, it's just another example of how shite VAR is. The linesman gave the offside, and in the end it was a tight call. The playing on and pitch invasion (sort of), the three minute wait for it to be confirmed. The fact that it was so tight a call just shows how ridiculous the whole thing is. Just stick with linesman's call and get on with it. 

The two key points in the red card for me are, first, that Shinnie bends his knee upon contact with the player, showing that there is no "out of control"/ "leaving one on him" / "endangering an opponent". The worst injury that the player could realistically sustain there is sepsis from a stud mark on the leg. Secondly, as you say, the county player stands on Shinnie. There's obviously no red card for the county player, but he goes into the challenge where he has no hope of winning the ball. He causes Shinnie's follow through to hit him, not the other way round. It was exceptionally clumsy from the county player as he jumps in with two feet (not maliciously, just his body position), which means that his left leg is straight when it shouldn't be if he was making any normal attempt to play the ball. 

Edit: to add though, imagine Shinnie had rolled around after the follow through and VAR had been asked to look at the county player's follow through on Shinnie, it would be extremely easy for a referee to give a red card for an out of control stamp. It would never ever be a red card of course, just that it's easy to completely alter the answer given to a problem just by changing the question. That's what VAR does, it changes the question (to: "can you see a red card here?").

Edited April 15, 2023 by RicoS321

[redordead]

Have to say, I thought he was off as soon as he went into the tackle. There was just no need at that stage and in that position to Dive in there.

[RicoS321]

9 minutes ago, redordead said:

Have to say, I thought he was off as soon as he went into the tackle. There was just no need at that stage and in that position to Dive in there.

Players "dive in" all the time, it's how you win the ball before your opponent, and it's how you play football. Shinnie regularly wins tackles like that with no issue whatsoever - because it's not a fucking red card. Hayes's tackle in the first half was significantly worse and more out of control. Had the ref issued a yellow (incorrectly in my opinion) to Shinnie, I expect VAR would have said no clear and obvious error. The ref had a clear view and saw exactly what happened in real time. He didn't VAR to make the call, there was no clear and obvious error. 

Edit (again): the question that has to be asked here is if that challenge was shown on the highlights today, would it be called up for review and Shinnie given a red? That's, essentially, what VAR is supposed to do - avoid the really contentious decisions spilling over into the following weeks and months. There's not a chance on earth that he would have got a retrospective red earlier this season (because he wasn't here!). It's not clear and obvious, it's not contentious, you go with the ref's call.

Edited April 15, 2023 by RicoS321

[Elgindon]

Re - Duncan,was a tough game to see what he's made of over 90 mins,the Hun game might give opportunity to express himself more.

  Also be interesting to see if Robson's current style are what we continue to see going forward, or to stabilise us for now and we get to see if he has more about him tactically in future game situations

Edited April 15, 2023 by Elgindon

[OrlandoDon]

14 minutes ago, Elgindon said:

Re - Duncan,was a tough game to see what he's made of over 90 mins,the Hun game might give opportunity to express himself more.

  Also be interesting to see if Robson's current style are what we continue to see going forward, or to stabilise us for now and we get to see if he has more about him tactically in future game situations

Robson’s style is hard work, passion, and defend for your lives. A short term plan to get us out of trouble and get us up the table. But that can only take you so far, impossible to play that way for an entire season. I don’t know if Robson has the ability for more or if he’s a quick short term fix. Throw in around 5-10 new signings and it’s a whole new season and whole new squad. That’s where his track record/inexperience kicks in, we have no clue, much like goodwin and glass, what he’s capable of long term.

[redordead]

22 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

Robson’s style is hard work, passion, and defend for your lives. A short term plan to get us out of trouble and get us up the table. But that can only take you so far, impossible to play that way for an entire season. I don’t know if Robson has the ability for more or if he’s a quick short term fix. Throw in around 5-10 new signings and it’s a whole new season and whole new squad. That’s where his track record/inexperience kicks in, we have no clue, much like goodwin and glass, what he’s capable of long term.

Absolutely agree. He's done fantastically but sometimes it's better to be lucky than good and in the last three weeks we've scraped results by the leather of Kelle's gloves.

That doesn't work long term. However he did say after the game that we can be more expansive and play football too. Then stressed that for now we need to work, run and grab points.

I think that unless we have a disaster post split he has to get the gig but like you I think that still have a big call to make.

It's also given him a great addition to the CV whatever happens 

[Jute]

Dons appealing Shinnie’s red card. 
 

Should be overturned but not convinced it will. 

[Panda]

No chance of it being overturned, but the club had to appeal against it to make a statement they feel they've been wronged.

 

[RicoS321]

57 minutes ago, Panda said:

No chance of it being overturned, but the club had to appeal against it to make a statement they feel they've been wronged.

 

^^^This. The pertinent point that we should all be focusing on is that this incident would never, ever have been called up for a review after the game in normal times. Thus, VAR is now creating its own entire version of the red card, for which it is always correct in awarding. I heard thon wierdo Dougal talk about a red the other week on the "Vardict" thing on BBC, and he was telling us all how great it was for referees that VAR was spotting penalties (for handball) that wouldn't have been given prior to VAR, but failed to understand that those things are only now penalties because VAR exists. Obviously he's got some deep thinker in Foster or Lamont questioning him for 16 seconds per incident, which only exacerbates the issue. It's the lack of thoughtful discussion that we get on the subject that is the most infuriating thing. Where the BBC is the only real outlet for this type of debate, and it's just getting worse and worse. I guess we should be used to it by now, given the lack of any change in our game for a half century. It's just sad that the game is being allowed to be [further] ruined in this country and we have no representatives capable of articulating that.

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

I thought it was pretty harsh initially but seeing it again I don't think it is even debateable, the ref got it spot on.  Shinnie took a chunk of the ball but to be honest the guy was lucky not to have a broken ankle.  Imagine you were the County guy in this picture.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

I thought it was pretty harsh initially but seeing it again I don't think it is even debateable, the ref got it spot on.  Shinnie took a chunk of the ball but to be honest the guy was lucky not to have a broken ankle.  Imagine you were the County guy in this picture.

That's why still photos (and I'd argue slow motion replays too) are completely and utterly useless in this type of situation. There was zero danger of a broken ankle because on contact, Shinnie pulls his leg backwards, significantly lessenning the impact - which you obviously don't see in the still photo. If you've got time, edit the video to show a photo of the county player standing on Shinnie's leg in the same challenge and make the comment: "the ref completely missed that one, that stamp could have wrecked his knee". You'd get full agreement from the VAR lads, who remove context from everything in order to do their shite jobs.

[DantheDon]

Honestly I think its one of these really borderline ones where you can make a case either way. I'm not sure that VAR should have got involved got as it definately is not a clear mistake. I think had shinnie had his other foot firmly on the ground there would be no question of it being a red. He's been dismissed as he's deemed not to be in control and in those circumstances it's the potential damage that could be done they take into account. It was a silly challenge in all honestly and I'm not sure we are being wise in challenging it. I think we risk that they throw the book at him and he gets a 3-4 match ban, and we really could be using him for the run in. 

[RicoS321]

30 minutes ago, DantheDon said:

Honestly I think its one of these really borderline ones where you can make a case either way. I'm not sure that VAR should have got involved got as it definately is not a clear mistake. I think had shinnie had his other foot firmly on the ground there would be no question of it being a red. He's been dismissed as he's deemed not to be in control and in those circumstances it's the potential damage that could be done they take into account. It was a silly challenge in all honestly and I'm not sure we are being wise in challenging it. I think we risk that they throw the book at him and he gets a 3-4 match ban, and we really could be using him for the run in. 

They're not throwing the book at him. They're not going to overturn it either, but there's a very good case to be heard for it not being a red, it's an incredibly contentious decision given that it was a follow through. They can only extend the ban for a frivolous appeal, and it certainly isn't that. He's clearly in control and I think that can be proven by the fact that he pulls his leg back. The county player is much less in control and arriving late (again, not a red). I think that the ref got it right (and had a clear view of it) in real time, however at the very least there is a strong argument that it should have only been a yellow even after the slow motion, out of context, pish. I think that's how the club will make their case too.

[Panda]

8 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

^^^This. The pertinent point that we should all be focusing on is that this incident would never, ever have been called up for a review after the game in normal times. Thus, VAR is now creating its own entire version of the red card, for which it is always correct in awarding. I heard thon wierdo Dougal talk about a red the other week on the "Vardict" thing on BBC, and he was telling us all how great it was for referees that VAR was spotting penalties (for handball) that wouldn't have been given prior to VAR, but failed to understand that those things are only now penalties because VAR exists. Obviously he's got some deep thinker in Foster or Lamont questioning him for 16 seconds per incident, which only exacerbates the issue. It's the lack of thoughtful discussion that we get on the subject that is the most infuriating thing. Where the BBC is the only real outlet for this type of debate, and it's just getting worse and worse. I guess we should be used to it by now, given the lack of any change in our game for a half century. It's just sad that the game is being allowed to be [further] ruined in this country and we have no representatives capable of articulating that.

Will take the BBC criticism on board and raise it at the next department meeting.

Just so my notes are correct, you're saying you want more Foster on VARdict and more old firm content?